Can we reject this car? Bad dealer experience.
Discussion
Hello,
I'll try to cut a long story short here but I doubt I'll succeed so look for the TL;DR at the end.
My mother bought a car from a VW dealer in the Midlands on 30th June. It was the only car she could find in the spec she wanted despite being 80 miles from where she lives.
The dealer advised that the car was immaculate and it would take a week to prepare for collection.
My Mum advertised her car for sale privately as she had been offered a good deal below book price as a PX and was deluged with interest. As the VW dealer wouldn't confirm the date for collection she lost quite a few interested parties.
Finally the dealer offered a date so she sold the car. The dealer then reneged on the date and it was eventually a full month before Mum went to collect the car. For the last 10 days before collection the dealer provided a courtesy car as the new one was in the body shop (having some paint matched, apparently).
Collection was eventually agreed for the 30th June so Mum travelled to collect. When she got there the car was covered in stone chips and the seats were filthy (car was two years old and had less than 10k miles - was described as "immaculate" by the salesman). I've seen the car and the interior condition is very poor, especially post-valet. She collected the car under duress as the dealer wanted the hire car back and they told her she could exchange it within 30 days if not happy. She had paid half in cash and half on finance "for the free servicing" at 15% APR (you couldn't imagine a better credit risk).
She really didn't like the car and asked me to help her get it exchanged for a pre-registered car further up the range. This would mean an additional payment from her of around £6,000.
I started to deal with the dealer on her behalf as she is a pensioner and was becoming quite stressed by the whole thing. They were unavailable every single time I called, from salesman through to sales manager and did not call me back on a single occasion. I ended up having to tell the receptionist I would hold until one of them was available.
We eventually agreed on a car that was within their group stock with <100 miles and wasn't quite the ideal spec but was near enough. The salesman said it would take a week again and I asked him to update me on progress. He didn't. When the car arrived, it actually had 2,500 miles on it but they couldn't do anything to adjust the price as "we're losing money on this car now".
By this stage my Mum was really upset and agreed to take the car anyway. We arranged with the salesman to collect the car today but that he would call me last night to confirm collection and most importantly that he had personally inspected the car and that it really was "immaculate" as described. He didn't call.
I eventually tracked him down and he confirmed that he had viewed the car personally and that it was absolutely immaculate. He confirmed collection for this morning and that they would "make the experience special" for my Mum to make up for all the hassle.
I couldn't go with my Mum today but she called an hour ago to say that when she got there the car had several stone chips and wasn't in good condition. The "special experience" was a set of floor mats. The salesman acknowledged on the phone to me that the car wasn't immaculate and that when he viewed it last night it was in the valet bay and "must have looked better".
They won't reduce the price to reflect the condition and my Mum doesn't want it - she just wants a car that is actually as described. They have offered her another one with 2,400 miles in a different colour but as it has parking sensors they want another £500 and won't move on the price of that one.
The 30 day exchange period expires tomorrow. My Mum is worried that if she rejects the first car outright (it wasn't in the condition described as agreed by everyone) that they won't give her her money back and that she then won't have a car at all. I'm strongly advocating that she gives them the keys back and gives them 24 hours to refund her money and cancel the finance agreement. She's inclined to pay the extra £500 and take the car with parking sensors, which apparently at least has decent bodywork.
I should point out that I only got involved because my Mum was upset. I negotiate for a living so I understand the value of remaining calm, measured, respectful and reasonable and have been so at all times. I have tried to find the win/win but this dealership have been extremely unprofessional, have communicated dreadfully, have outright lied on several occasions, have always tried to blame someone else and really do not seem to care at all about my Mum travelling 160 miles on three separate occasions to be let down and fobbed off. Based on their behaviour, they really should be ashamed of themselves.
My question is can we reject the car and get our money back? Is there any way to find someone in the group who actually cares about customer experience?
TL;DR - VW main dealership has lied and communicated badly whilst messing my 65 year old Mother around at every turn. I want to extricate her from them but not sure on legal/moral position. Advice welcomed please.
Thanks for reading and thanks in advance for any sensible counsel.
I'll try to cut a long story short here but I doubt I'll succeed so look for the TL;DR at the end.
My mother bought a car from a VW dealer in the Midlands on 30th June. It was the only car she could find in the spec she wanted despite being 80 miles from where she lives.
The dealer advised that the car was immaculate and it would take a week to prepare for collection.
My Mum advertised her car for sale privately as she had been offered a good deal below book price as a PX and was deluged with interest. As the VW dealer wouldn't confirm the date for collection she lost quite a few interested parties.
Finally the dealer offered a date so she sold the car. The dealer then reneged on the date and it was eventually a full month before Mum went to collect the car. For the last 10 days before collection the dealer provided a courtesy car as the new one was in the body shop (having some paint matched, apparently).
Collection was eventually agreed for the 30th June so Mum travelled to collect. When she got there the car was covered in stone chips and the seats were filthy (car was two years old and had less than 10k miles - was described as "immaculate" by the salesman). I've seen the car and the interior condition is very poor, especially post-valet. She collected the car under duress as the dealer wanted the hire car back and they told her she could exchange it within 30 days if not happy. She had paid half in cash and half on finance "for the free servicing" at 15% APR (you couldn't imagine a better credit risk).
She really didn't like the car and asked me to help her get it exchanged for a pre-registered car further up the range. This would mean an additional payment from her of around £6,000.
I started to deal with the dealer on her behalf as she is a pensioner and was becoming quite stressed by the whole thing. They were unavailable every single time I called, from salesman through to sales manager and did not call me back on a single occasion. I ended up having to tell the receptionist I would hold until one of them was available.
We eventually agreed on a car that was within their group stock with <100 miles and wasn't quite the ideal spec but was near enough. The salesman said it would take a week again and I asked him to update me on progress. He didn't. When the car arrived, it actually had 2,500 miles on it but they couldn't do anything to adjust the price as "we're losing money on this car now".
By this stage my Mum was really upset and agreed to take the car anyway. We arranged with the salesman to collect the car today but that he would call me last night to confirm collection and most importantly that he had personally inspected the car and that it really was "immaculate" as described. He didn't call.
I eventually tracked him down and he confirmed that he had viewed the car personally and that it was absolutely immaculate. He confirmed collection for this morning and that they would "make the experience special" for my Mum to make up for all the hassle.
I couldn't go with my Mum today but she called an hour ago to say that when she got there the car had several stone chips and wasn't in good condition. The "special experience" was a set of floor mats. The salesman acknowledged on the phone to me that the car wasn't immaculate and that when he viewed it last night it was in the valet bay and "must have looked better".
They won't reduce the price to reflect the condition and my Mum doesn't want it - she just wants a car that is actually as described. They have offered her another one with 2,400 miles in a different colour but as it has parking sensors they want another £500 and won't move on the price of that one.
The 30 day exchange period expires tomorrow. My Mum is worried that if she rejects the first car outright (it wasn't in the condition described as agreed by everyone) that they won't give her her money back and that she then won't have a car at all. I'm strongly advocating that she gives them the keys back and gives them 24 hours to refund her money and cancel the finance agreement. She's inclined to pay the extra £500 and take the car with parking sensors, which apparently at least has decent bodywork.
I should point out that I only got involved because my Mum was upset. I negotiate for a living so I understand the value of remaining calm, measured, respectful and reasonable and have been so at all times. I have tried to find the win/win but this dealership have been extremely unprofessional, have communicated dreadfully, have outright lied on several occasions, have always tried to blame someone else and really do not seem to care at all about my Mum travelling 160 miles on three separate occasions to be let down and fobbed off. Based on their behaviour, they really should be ashamed of themselves.
My question is can we reject the car and get our money back? Is there any way to find someone in the group who actually cares about customer experience?
TL;DR - VW main dealership has lied and communicated badly whilst messing my 65 year old Mother around at every turn. I want to extricate her from them but not sure on legal/moral position. Advice welcomed please.
Thanks for reading and thanks in advance for any sensible counsel.
Sounds like a nasty situation so your mum has my sympathies. What does the VW contract say as when I bought my Golf a few years ago I could hand it back if I wasn't happy and it had done minimal miles. I think it was 14 days and <500 miles, but I don't think I have the paperwork to hand.
Potentially because you've essentially changed cars you may also have reset their terms to return the car. I would speak to citizens advice asap and also inform the dealer you're doing as such as you feel they are in breach of the Sale of Good Act.
From the way you describe it the dealer hasn't been overly honest about their sales. I would think rejecting the first car would have helped your case more but I'd go down to the dealer and demand a meeting with the dealer principle. Forget the sales guys as they are purely coin-operated and want to get you out of the way by the sound of it.
This may help you:
The law
When you buy a used vehicle from a trader you are making a legally binding contract. You have legal rights against the trader under the Sale of Goods Act 1979.
The vehicle should be:
- Of a satisfactory quality - free from minor defects, safe and durable for a reasonable length of time. When assessing satisfactory quality you should take into account price, age, mileage and condition at the time of sale.
- Fit for its intended purpose or a purpose that you made known to the trader - fit to be driven on the road.
- As described - the vehicle should correspond with any description applied to it. In some circumstances, the trader may be liable for any statement made by the manufacturer of the goods.
The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 prohibits commercial practices that are unfair to consumers. If a trader misleads you or engages in an aggressive commercial practice and you make a decision to purchase a vehicle which you would not otherwise have done, the trader may be in breach of the regulations. For example, a trader may fail to inform you that the vehicle has previously been accident damaged or may claim it is 'sold as seen' to avoid their responsibilities to you. If you have been misled,report it to Citizens Advice for investigation by trading standards.
Best of luck.
Potentially because you've essentially changed cars you may also have reset their terms to return the car. I would speak to citizens advice asap and also inform the dealer you're doing as such as you feel they are in breach of the Sale of Good Act.
From the way you describe it the dealer hasn't been overly honest about their sales. I would think rejecting the first car would have helped your case more but I'd go down to the dealer and demand a meeting with the dealer principle. Forget the sales guys as they are purely coin-operated and want to get you out of the way by the sound of it.
This may help you:
The law
When you buy a used vehicle from a trader you are making a legally binding contract. You have legal rights against the trader under the Sale of Goods Act 1979.
The vehicle should be:
- Of a satisfactory quality - free from minor defects, safe and durable for a reasonable length of time. When assessing satisfactory quality you should take into account price, age, mileage and condition at the time of sale.
- Fit for its intended purpose or a purpose that you made known to the trader - fit to be driven on the road.
- As described - the vehicle should correspond with any description applied to it. In some circumstances, the trader may be liable for any statement made by the manufacturer of the goods.
The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 prohibits commercial practices that are unfair to consumers. If a trader misleads you or engages in an aggressive commercial practice and you make a decision to purchase a vehicle which you would not otherwise have done, the trader may be in breach of the regulations. For example, a trader may fail to inform you that the vehicle has previously been accident damaged or may claim it is 'sold as seen' to avoid their responsibilities to you. If you have been misled,report it to Citizens Advice for investigation by trading standards.
Best of luck.
Edited by Ved on Tuesday 29th July 14:44
In your mother's situation, if she's not happy with either of the two cars that the dealer is offering as an exchange, I would suggest asking the dealer to refund the money on the sale of the original car (not very likely) or locate a suitable replacement for you and to extend the 30 day 'no quibble exchange'.
If she is really unhappy with the experience on the original car and it wasn't 'as described' then I would put a letter in writing to both the dealer principal at the dealership, and copy in VW Customer Services in Milton Keynes. You'd need to be very clear as to why the car wasn't as described to you in the first instance.
Whatever you do - good luck.
If she is really unhappy with the experience on the original car and it wasn't 'as described' then I would put a letter in writing to both the dealer principal at the dealership, and copy in VW Customer Services in Milton Keynes. You'd need to be very clear as to why the car wasn't as described to you in the first instance.
Whatever you do - good luck.
Rejection under SoG is not the option you should be pursuing here and is almost certain to fail.
Seems that you have just come up against a bad dealer, and unfortunately phrases like 'immaculate' are subjective and arguing what they mean from a legal perspective is a non-starter. If there is nothing in writing as to the stated physical condition of the vehicles in question then it will become a you mum's word against their's argument - again a waste of time.
£500 for parking sensors is a bit heavy, but it looks like they know they've got you in a corner with the 30 days almost up, otherwise I'd say try and haggle that down a bit on the basis of what the sensors actually cost on the options list (I'll bet it'll be a lot less than £500!)
Seems that you have just come up against a bad dealer, and unfortunately phrases like 'immaculate' are subjective and arguing what they mean from a legal perspective is a non-starter. If there is nothing in writing as to the stated physical condition of the vehicles in question then it will become a you mum's word against their's argument - again a waste of time.
£500 for parking sensors is a bit heavy, but it looks like they know they've got you in a corner with the 30 days almost up, otherwise I'd say try and haggle that down a bit on the basis of what the sensors actually cost on the options list (I'll bet it'll be a lot less than £500!)
Or the more accurate TL;DR...
Somebody buys car sight-unseen, is surprised when isn't as promised.
Tries to sell own car before replacement ready, is surprised when replacement delayed, and is surprised when that puts buyers off.
Buys car without test-driving, is surprised when don't like it.
Buys car sight-unseen from same people as before, is surprised when isn't as promised again.
Right?
There is no law about buyer's regret.
SOGA doesn't allow the buyer to reject goods because they changed their mind or failed to do their research or don't like the seller much. I'm not sure if obvious cosmetic flaws would qualify to render it not fit for purpose, but would doubt it. B'sides, they have to have the right to repair first.
Distance selling regs MAY allow a cooling-off period where the goods were bought entirely remotely, but IANAL, and you haven't given enough info. If she had the chance to inspect before concluding the deal and STILL accepted despite the cosmetic issues, then almost certainly not.
Have a read of http://www.norfolk.gov.uk/view/NCC048215
Somebody buys car sight-unseen, is surprised when isn't as promised.
Tries to sell own car before replacement ready, is surprised when replacement delayed, and is surprised when that puts buyers off.
Buys car without test-driving, is surprised when don't like it.
Buys car sight-unseen from same people as before, is surprised when isn't as promised again.
Right?
There is no law about buyer's regret.
SOGA doesn't allow the buyer to reject goods because they changed their mind or failed to do their research or don't like the seller much. I'm not sure if obvious cosmetic flaws would qualify to render it not fit for purpose, but would doubt it. B'sides, they have to have the right to repair first.
Distance selling regs MAY allow a cooling-off period where the goods were bought entirely remotely, but IANAL, and you haven't given enough info. If she had the chance to inspect before concluding the deal and STILL accepted despite the cosmetic issues, then almost certainly not.
Have a read of http://www.norfolk.gov.uk/view/NCC048215
I don't think anyone in that dealership knows what "immaculate" really means, perhaps they just use it because it's a long word and makes them sound clever.
If i were in your position then i'd be firing off a letter to the VW Mothership, it's obvious that the Dealer personnel are bunch of expletives, so you should go over their heads. True, it will take a bit longer, but i think the ultimate goal in your position should be to do what you can to get your mother's money back.
That way you can then go to a place where the staff know how to value their customers.
If i were in your position then i'd be firing off a letter to the VW Mothership, it's obvious that the Dealer personnel are bunch of expletives, so you should go over their heads. True, it will take a bit longer, but i think the ultimate goal in your position should be to do what you can to get your mother's money back.
That way you can then go to a place where the staff know how to value their customers.
Thanks for the responses, much appreciated.
I don't have a social networking account unfortunately. I have discovered that the sales manager is also the general manager for the entire dealership which is interesting.
I have written to him politely to ask for a phone call or meeting (it's a 100 miles round trip for me but worth doing if it's more likely to lead to a good result) today or tomorrow, stressing that my mum is very unhappy and upset at the moment but that we want to come to a sensible resolution.
We'd be very happy to buy a car that is as described and it's that simple. Hopefully they'll see sense.
I don't have a social networking account unfortunately. I have discovered that the sales manager is also the general manager for the entire dealership which is interesting.
I have written to him politely to ask for a phone call or meeting (it's a 100 miles round trip for me but worth doing if it's more likely to lead to a good result) today or tomorrow, stressing that my mum is very unhappy and upset at the moment but that we want to come to a sensible resolution.
We'd be very happy to buy a car that is as described and it's that simple. Hopefully they'll see sense.
POORCARDEALER said:
I think a brand new car might save you aggravation as it wont have any stone chips or signs of wear.
I'm sure you are right here. It may well come to that but the budget is fully stretched for the pre-reg model, which is one of the reasons we're unhappy about the additional £500. I was fairly clear that "immaculate" in my mind meant "as new", given that the car was advertised as having less than 100 miles.I also don't personally think this particular dealer deserves any more business but we may have no choice.
Tidybeard said:
POORCARDEALER said:
I think a brand new car might save you aggravation as it wont have any stone chips or signs of wear.
I also don't personally think this particular dealer deserves any more business but we may have no choice.Tidybeard said:
POORCARDEALER said:
I think a brand new car might save you aggravation as it wont have any stone chips or signs of wear.
I'm sure you are right here. It may well come to that but the budget is fully stretched for the pre-reg model, which is one of the reasons we're unhappy about the additional £500. I was fairly clear that "immaculate" in my mind meant "as new", given that the car was advertised as having less than 100 miles.I also don't personally think this particular dealer deserves any more business but we may have no choice.
Tidybeard said:
POORCARDEALER said:
I think a brand new car might save you aggravation as it wont have any stone chips or signs of wear.
I'm sure you are right here. It may well come to that but the budget is fully stretched for the pre-reg model, which is one of the reasons we're unhappy about the additional £500. I was fairly clear that "immaculate" in my mind meant "as new", given that the car was advertised as having less than 100 miles.I also don't personally think this particular dealer deserves any more business but we may have no choice.
I cannot speak for any of the other dealers on here but my boss would go absolutely ballistic if he were to discover that we had treated anyone in that fashion.
berlintaxi said:
Pre-reg is not usually 2500 miles, immaculate is a very subjective description,sounds like your mum has had a rough deal but I don't think she will be able to reject the car, her best hope is appealing to the dealers/VW's goodwill.
This!anonymous said:
[redacted]
Irrelevant if the purchaser gets a chance to inspect the item before conclusion of the sale, becomes aware of any shortcomings yet decides to go ahead anyway, for whatever reason.I don't think I've ever sold a pre-reg car with more than 250 miles on it, let alone 2500.
They sound more like demo or service department courtesy cars to me. Which would explain the appealing condition of them. You wouldn't believe the state some people return a free courtesy car in. I've had to charge customers hundreds of pounds to clean cars before.
Speak to the DP and clearly outline all the concerns and problems. My old DP would go mental if he knew nearly new cars were being sold in that condition. The manufacturer wouldn't be best pleased either.
They sound more like demo or service department courtesy cars to me. Which would explain the appealing condition of them. You wouldn't believe the state some people return a free courtesy car in. I've had to charge customers hundreds of pounds to clean cars before.
Speak to the DP and clearly outline all the concerns and problems. My old DP would go mental if he knew nearly new cars were being sold in that condition. The manufacturer wouldn't be best pleased either.
king usual bullsAs has been said above contact the DP (General manager). Would like to help get your mum sorted, so I think I speak for the other sales guys that have commented above please get in contact or update this thread if you would like some further assistance. We will do our best to advise from the other side of the fence.
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