High Intensity Training?

[uncinquesei]

There have been a few articles in the media recently about High Intensity Training (HIT) and its benefits. Michael Moseley has written a couple of pieces in the Times [cynic] author of a book about HIT[/cynic] and it does seem to have scientific basis. As far as I can tell a couple of very intense bursts of effort (15-20 secs to absolute failure) are sufficient to increase strength, fitness etc...
It just seems a bit too good to be true.
I could do four or five maximum attack, arse up head down sprints on my ride to and from work every day and I'll be in Rio 2016!
Do the far more learned denizens of Pedal Powered have any knowledge or opinion (with or without knowledge - usual rules apply...) of HIT?

[Rolls]

If you do it properly, it hurts. A LOT!!!
I need to get in the habit of using the turbo during the summer after the ride home for 15 mins of intervals really...
In the winter, I do a lot of sufferfest video's some of which are interval based - they're good, and defo make a difference...

[yellowjack]

There's a four page article in Issue 289 (July) of 'Cycling Plus' magazine, written by Edward Gibbes. Entitled "Master Faster" it claims to "show how short, sharp sessions can make a real difference". I won't parrot it on here for copyright reasons, but it mentions the following 'experts' and gives examples of short high intensity workouts in little sidebars...

Dr Niels Vollaard; Professor Izumi Tabata; Dr Michael Mosley - so there are some more names to google for more info on it.

I haven't read the article yet (I only borrowed it from the library yesterday), so can't really comment, and anyway, 'faster' isn't the end game for me. I just like riding my bike. Lots. If 'faster' comes along as a byproduct of hours of riding through quiet country lanes, it's just a bonus, really. I can't see me setting out to ride at 'high intensity' for twenty minutes, it's just alien to me to ride for anything much less than an hour. Hell, it takes me more than twenty minutes to fart-arse around getting ready for a ride, and the same again stretching off and showering afterwards. Each to their own though. If you are training to compete, I can see why you'd sacrifice enjoyment for results, but I'm not, so I won't

[fausTVR]

Look up 'fartlek' training or 'intervals'. It's nothing new. Racing was always the best form of HIT training IMHO.

[okgo]

I doubt there is any racing cyclist amateur or pro who doesn't do HIT at least once or twice a week in training, though possibly not in winter.

Almost all of my training sessions have an element of HIT to them.

[S10GTA]

Google Tabata

[uncinquesei]

Thanks, the name Tabata did keep cropping up as well as a recent study (that precipitated all the articles) in American College of Sport’s Medicine’s Health & Fitness Journal.
I remember well fartleks and intervals, in particular, from my rowing days; the difference here being that the HIT seems to replace normal training (ie "just 10 minutes a day!") rather than complement it...
I suppose I am naturally suspicious of any quick fixes (like most of us here) but I shall give it a bash on my regular commute (the worst that can happen is I'll get to work more quickly )and see how it goes.

[uncinquesei]

yellowjack said:

and anyway, 'faster' isn't the end game for me. I just like riding my bike. Lots. If 'faster' comes along as a byproduct of hours of riding through quiet country lanes, it's just a bonus, really. I can't see me setting out to ride at 'high intensity' for twenty minutes, it's just alien to me to ride for anything much less than an hour. Hell, it takes me more than twenty minutes to fart-arse around getting ready for a ride, and the same again stretching off and showering afterwards. Each to their own though. If you are training to compete, I can see why you'd sacrifice enjoyment for results, but I'm not, so I won't

I'm with you on that - what appealed to me was the assertion that incorporating a handful of high intensity bursts into my daily commute could allow me to consume more guilt free beer / cake

[S10GTA]

uncinquesei said:

Thanks, the name Tabata did keep cropping up as well as a recent study (that precipitated all the articles) in American College of Sport’s Medicine’s Health & Fitness Journal.
I remember well fartleks and intervals, in particular, from my rowing days; the difference here being that the HIT seems to replace normal training (ie "just 10 minutes a day!") rather than complement it...
I suppose I am naturally suspicious of any quick fixes (like most of us here) but I shall give it a bash on my regular commute (the worst that can happen is I'll get to work more quickly )and see how it goes.

Personally I don't think you can do proper interval training on a commute. There are too many vairables (assuming you ride into a town)

Proper interval training is hard to do properly anywhere, except on a turbo

[uncinquesei]

S10GTA said:

Personally I don't think you can do proper interval training on a commute. There are too many vairables (assuming you ride into a town)

Proper interval training is hard to do properly anywhere, except on a turbo

I couldn't if I was riding through town, you're right. My ride in is all cycle path / sea front with quite a few clear stretches which allow a good burst (the HIT article said 20 secs max) unimpeded.
Voila: (ignore captions )

[Freakuk]

My only experience of this was my PT at the gym, we did a session using this method and according to my heart rate monitor I burnt roughly the same amount of calories for effectively less effort (i.e. the rest time) in the same amount of time as a regular workout.

[craigthecoupe]

if you can carry on pedalling after 5 HIT reps, you're not working yourself to failure imo. as said before, i think you really need to be in a simulated environment like a turbo, or rollers. i go to a turbo session once a week in the off season, run buy a dr of sports science. most of our sessions involve some sort of HIT reps, if i get through the session and dont feel like im going to puke/go blind then i don't think i'm working to my max. i think it's near impossible to do that out on the road.

[Rich_W]

There's a video I put in the running thread regarding endurance sport training. If you get a chance. p366

Essentially all I'll remind you is that HIT should form a tiny percentage of your weekly mileage. Roughly 5% max.

[okgo]

I don't agree with that at all.

Neither would many cycling coaches/riders.

[Rocksteadyeddie]

I think it depends. If you are trying to shift weight then you'll need to get the miles in. If you are trying to get fitter then you'll need to be doing a good chunk of HIT, whether that be specific intervals, or simply riding the climbs on your ride really hard.

[Rocksteadyeddie]

I think it depends. If you are trying to shift weight then you'll need to get the miles in. If you are trying to get fitter then you'll need to be doing a good chunk of HIT, whether that be specific intervals, or simply riding the climbs on your ride really hard.

[okgo]

Rocksteadyeddie said:

I think it depends. If you are trying to shift weight then you'll need to get the miles in. If you are trying to get fitter then you'll need to be doing a good chunk of HIT, whether that be specific intervals, or simply riding the climbs on your ride really hard.

Yes agreed. But most people racing will be doing a lot more than 5%. Crystal Palace crit is about 1 hour of tabata style intervals for example. Many people will race that, then do another race at the weekend, which of course is will be another similar thing.

[Rich_W]

okgo said:

I don't agree with that at all.

Neither would many cycling coaches/riders.

Name names then. Tell me an ENDURANCE sport coach who thinks lots of HIT is the way to world champions. How much HIT do you think Froome/Wiggins do? How much do you think Mo Farah does? The Brownlee brothers?


For the OP

It's counter intuitive I know. But for endurance sport it's what makes for world champions in multiple sports. XC skiing. Marathon runners, Triathletes etc. The info is backed by multiple Olympic sports, multiple coaches around the world. (real world example. GBR ITU Elite Triathlete Jodie Stimpson was only ever "good" when she did loads of HIT work. She changed coaches and cut down the percentage of HIT and all of a sudden she's wining races. HIT is great for short term if that's all you want. And most elite racers would quite like to win often rather than flash in the pan "lucky" result.

Essentially these guys race at HIT but they only train it a bit. Long and slow and big volume tends towards a Vo2 of 70% which is pretty much the bare minimum required to be good. As in, elite level good. (the data suggests this is more or less the "golden" number in multiple sports surprisingly.) It's the classic. You want to be good, you train MORE not harder. SMARTER not HARDER. You want your body to be more efficient. If you're efficient you can go faster for longer. Makes sense doesn't it.

It's called Polarization. It requires discipline. But it gets results so there's probably a reason why it works. Trying to do multiple HIT sessions in a week/10 day training cycle also (invariably) just leads to burn out (and potentially increased injury risk) because you are not allowing your body the time to recover and adapt properly.

Edited by Rich_W on Saturday 2nd August 00:00

[okgo]

You're comparing amateurs with professionals. Huge error.

Wiggins has 20-30 hours a week to ride his bike. The top amateurs often not much more than 10 hours per week.

But maybe have a read of his book, 6 hour rides with full on efforts up the mountain in Tenerife in the lead up to the tour. While building a base is important. Applying rules to training such as you have should be based of a lot more than "it's what pros do" given they have unlimited time and little other stresses.

Every decent cyclist I know elite/1 cat will be doing a lot of hit stuff from probably Feb onwards. And my coach had me doing it all winter to give value as I don't have huge hours to train.

Edited by okgo on Saturday 2nd August 09:45

[Rich_W]

okgo said:

You're comparing amateurs with professionals. Huge error.

Wiggins has 20-30 hours a week to ride his bike. The top amateurs often not much more than 10 hours per week.

aah the classic "but I'm not a pro" argument. That somehow your hour/x mile race will be different to a pros hour/x mile race? You've stil got to cover the same distance. You've still got to perform at your best for the whole race.

You want to know what the difference is? Pros are faster. They are faster because they can train more hours. i.e More volume not harder. (though their "hard" will be a step above everyone elses but that's not relevant to my point) They train More.

okgo said:

But maybe have a read of his book, 6 hour rides with full on efforts up the mountain in Tenerife in the lead up to the tour. While building a base is important. Applying rules to training such as you have should be based of a lot more than "it's what pros do" given they have unlimited time and little other stresses.

Yes but did you look at how those rides are broken up. It's not 6 hours of HIT up the side of a mountain. It's 4.5 hours of gentle stuff then perhaps 3 x 30min HIT. It's all about the percentages, and crucially how they put them together to allow the time for the body to adapt to the training stimuli. So you might get 2 hours then an hit effort then another 1.5 then hit then 1 hour and the final hit (rough calcs) And they will probably only do that session twice a week. Large chunk of the rest of the week will be other training at a lower intensity

okgo said:

Every decent cyclist I know elite/1 cat will be doing a lot of hit stuff from probably Feb onwards. And my coach had me doing it all winter to give value as I don't have huge hours to train.

Are you sure they are? Or are you just focussing on the 4 hours HIT they are telling everyone about (the headline grabbers on Facebook ) and not the other 36 hours of LIT they don't mention. Since it's not quite as sexy to say "yep did 8 hours today at Zone1"

End of the day though If you're happy with the race wins and results you're getting from paying him hundreds of pounds a month then I'm pleased for you.

(who is your coach btw? - Has he got a website?)

Edited by Rich_W on Saturday 2nd August 11:31