Back Tracking.....

Back Tracking.....

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V8 Fettler

7,019 posts

132 months

Sunday 31st August 2014
quotequote all
smash said:
Not sure where that's come from. You won't lose any peak power after the carb is rolling roaded against a flapper. Think about what you're saying - WOT AFR for max bhp will be the same for either carb or Flapper so unless the carb is restricting airflow in comparison to the Flapper there'll be no power loss. In fact there may be a little gain due to the restriction of the flapper itself - it's quite heavily sprung and there's nothing similar on an Edelbrock to overcome - secondaries are weighted but much easier to move. Plus the dual plane manifold gives one primary and one secondary per bank in terms of airflow rather than all flow coming throw that single bore AFM...

Only the latest injection systems give a gain over a tuned carb in terms of peak power and even then I was surprised to hear it was only in the order of 3% (according to a Land Rover R&D engineer anyway) - the real benefits of a modern EFi will be economy and better transitional response where it'll be far superior but as we know, the flapper is nothing like a modern EFi!

ATspeed are on my doorstep and they definitely know what they're doing with carbs as Henry will attest to smile

Edited by smash on Sunday 31st August 19:40
You probably need to get your wallet out. Even if you fix the current issue, your experience of flapper EFi is tarnished for various reasons.

mrzigazaga

18,552 posts

165 months

Sunday 31st August 2014
quotequote all
smash said:
Not sure where that's come from. You won't lose any peak power after the carb is rolling roaded against a flapper. Think about what you're saying - WOT AFR for max bhp will be the same for either carb or Flapper so unless the carb is restricting airflow in comparison to the Flapper there'll be no power loss. In fact there may be a little gain due to the restriction of the flapper itself - it's quite heavily sprung and there's nothing similar on an Edelbrock to overcome - secondaries are weighted but much easier to move. Plus the dual plane manifold gives one primary and one secondary per bank in terms of airflow rather than all flow coming throw that single bore AFM...

Only the latest injection systems give a gain over a tuned carb in terms of peak power and even then I was surprised to hear it was only in the order of 3% (according to a Land Rover R&D engineer anyway) - the real benefits of a modern EFi will be economy and better transitional response where it'll be far superior but as we know, the flapper is nothing like a modern EFi!

ATspeed are on my doorstep and they definitely know what they're doing with carbs as Henry will attest to smile
Well if you think that's the way to go then that's the way to go..What happens if you do all that and it still plays up!...Its a possibility mate and i would want to know WTF was going on with it in the first place before putting a big hand in a deep pocket...You said it was running and idling now but just had a problem with hot starting...Is the cost of putting a resistor or replacing the thermotime/Temperature sensor more than the carb conversion???...You haven't even given the other ECU & AFM a try again now that you have replaced the ignition switch...Which i hope is on the "Flowchart" or check list...And if you are back tracking then at some point you will reach the point of no return and have to start re-tracking..Which is where you are at now..No???..

RDJ

7,251 posts

233 months

Sunday 31st August 2014
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I had a 390SE runing an Edelbrock set up and I loved every minte with it. Having a manual choke was a joy and the car was definitely not short of power!

adam quantrill

11,538 posts

242 months

Sunday 31st August 2014
quotequote all
You're right about peak power, but drivability and cruising MPG are another matter, as the carbs available are less easily matched to a particular RV8, being designed for bigger engines.

One guy who went down the carb route still had the same problem after the conversion. I'm sure the tortuous thread can be resurrected - just a word of warning.

Had a look - couldn't find the one I was looking for but this one is worth looking at:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=5&a...

similar symptoms and a happy ending...

Aha! Found it. Make yourself a brew, strap yourself it, this is a long one...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=3&a... (New 350i owner)

Edited by adam quantrill on Sunday 31st August 23:36

smash

Original Poster:

2,062 posts

228 months

Monday 1st September 2014
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@Zig - well if that don't cure it I'm gonna have me the best November 5 ever!! biggrin

I'm quite surprised at the support the flapper gets tbh - almost a blind faith in it's abilities. From what I read on here almost everyone who's had one on the rollers for serious tuning has never been able to get both mid range and WOT calibrated right - it's always one or the other - never both.

I absolutely accept the argument about MPG and cruising against a modern EFI - at the end of the day it's down to emulsifier tubes etc and drilling them for specific cruise modes and you can only calibrate for so many on a carb. It's just that realistically the flapper isn't any better - if you stick a mappable ECU like a mega squirt, then yep we're getting somewhere but not the stock ECU. After 30 years the injectors drift out, the components on the ECU and AFM drift and stock ECU has no idea.

Of course the only "proof" I have that carb conversion is successful is those who have done it and are more than happy i.e. GV

Blimey that's a long thread! Mostly about how shagged the engine is to start with as far as I can see - the carb bit only seems to have been a bad experience because he had a go at tuning it himself without wideband AFR and messed it up.

I think to own a wedge you really need to love them - I rally liked this one but as it turned out it was a bad decision to buy it for me personally -had all gone well I may have got the love for it to start rather than begrudging thrwoing money at it which is where I am now.

Realistically selling is out the window as values look to be non existant - PHJays 400 didn't even sell at £4750 - not sure about PJACS - was it pulled? So I'm stuck with it - and if I leave that flapper system off the road anotehr winter I think that'll be the end of it, loL! So if I'm ever gonna drive it I need to be able to trust it. I've yet to be stranded by a carb'd car where it was the carbs fault!

@RDJ - can I ask why you went over to Edlebrock?



Edited by smash on Monday 1st September 10:12


Edited by smash on Monday 1st September 10:13

mrzigazaga

18,552 posts

165 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
All i can say mate is if it sorts it out and you can start enjoying it again then its a good thing..Do it...I mean look at this months Wedge calendar pic...smile
smash said:
@Zig - well if that don't cure it I'm gonna have me the best November 5 ever!! biggrin
.....eek

RDJ

7,251 posts

233 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
smash said:
@RDJ - can I ask why you went over to Edlebrock?
It's what was on there when I bought it.

Used to belong to Graham48? on here. He might know more about how it was fitted/set up etc.

Grahamw48 http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/profile.asp?mem...


Edited by RDJ on Monday 1st September 10:48

smash

Original Poster:

2,062 posts

228 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
Cheers

@zig Only joking, lol! (or am I?)

Have decided that, as John Eales built the engine 30 years ago, I should really ask his advice about potential carb setups as there are a few more options than I initially thought! The boxer SU set up looks interesting

Edited by smash on Monday 1st September 12:27

smash

Original Poster:

2,062 posts

228 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
Come on, good is pushing it! It doesn't know what cylinder's firing and just alternately squirts fuel into each bank. Sounds a bit like a carb!

Been looking for a Rovertec ECU on ebay but rare as...wouldn't I be better off going Megasquirt ECU tho as that's completely mappable and in theory should be able to dial out drift in the 30 year old components?

I just want an easy life! (yes I know I shouldn't have bought a wedge then smile )

I had a wideband AFR on my cobra rep - an Innovate one to dial in the Edelbrock. Only slight PITA is having to put a bung on each bank to really see they're both in line. I guess it should be easy to weld one in through the wheel arch?

Didn't fire it up this weekend at all so don't know really know where we're at post ignition switch. Already losing interest as weather starts to change. It's just on a hard standing out the back - no roof cover. Could possibly be the longest I've ever had a weekend toy for as usually change every year - I'm wondering what bedding plants would look best in the interior, lol biggrin

Very interesting posts on here from Chris Goodwin - the guy who developed the quad boxer SU that RPi sold.

http://mez.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=429 - you're right about one carb needing slightly different tune but there's apparently a very good reason for this according to him "CYLs 5&7 like to be 2 percent richer than the rest as the firing order on that pair are consequtive"

Edited by smash on Monday 1st September 19:25

V8 Fettler

7,019 posts

132 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
smash said:
Come on, good is pushing it! It doesn't know what cylinder's firing and just alternately squirts fuel into each bank. Sounds a bit like a carb!

Been looking for a Rovertec ECU on ebay but rare as...wouldn't I be better off going Megasquirt ECU tho as that's completely mappable and in theory should be able to dial out drift in the 30 year old components?

I just want an easy life! (yes I know I shouldn't have bought a wedge then smile )

I had a wideband AFR on my cobra rep - an Innovate one to dial in the Edelbrock. Only slight PITA is having to put a bung on each bank to really see they're both in line. I guess it should be easy to weld one in through the wheel arch?

Didn't fire it up this weekend at all so don't know really know where we're at post ignition switch. Already losing interest as weather starts to change. It's just on a hard standing out the back - no roof cover. Could possibly be the longest I've ever had a weekend toy for as usually change every year - I'm wondering what bedding plants would look best in the interior, lol biggrin

Very interesting posts on here from Chris Goodwin - the guy who developed the quad boxer SU that RPi sold.

http://mez.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=429 - you're right about one carb needing slightly different tune but there's apparently a very good reason for this according to him "CYLs 5&7 like to be 2 percent richer than the rest as the firing order on that pair are consequtive"

Edited by smash on Monday 1st September 19:25
Please fit the carbs Smash, starting tomorrow.

superwedge

1,286 posts

148 months

Monday 1st September 2014
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get some rover su on there smash, work out better for the money,

hallsie

2,184 posts

220 months

Monday 1st September 2014
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I do have another ECU you can borrow, but you will have to leave a 1 million pound deposit for it!

Its got the twiddly knob on it that Im led to believe alters the temp setting and gives different fueling (but Im happy to be told different) and its destined for my new build in my FHC.

Come and collect it and see if itll make a difference.
in fact, Im working in Dartford at the moment, so ill happily hang on after work if you want to come and get it?

Stu

adam quantrill

11,538 posts

242 months

Monday 1st September 2014
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Linked to from mez.co.uk is http://www.mez.co.uk/ms12.html#boxer which has so many choices for fuelling your head will spin...

honestjohntoo

576 posts

216 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
smash said:
Come on, good is pushing it!
Bearing in mind the era from approx 1982 thro' '86 I think excellent is a better description. No competition from hotwire or megasquit, either!

Those brand new 'Bosch L Jetronic' Efi systems, apart from having some testy teething difficulties with "idle speed hangup", "vapor lock" and "connector reliability", gave a stunning performance.

Thirty odd years later, suffering many under-engineered hybrid variants, inappropriate component swapping and exceptionally poor preventative maintenance has led many owner/enthusiasts to the point of despair.

This thread, a case in point. There are solutions however, for the average owner/enthusiast.

First, one has to place much more emphasis on the word 'enthusiast' than the word 'owner'.

These Efi systems do not respond well to simply filling up the tank and scraping the car thro' an MOT every twelve months.

The Efi system requires an enthusiastic owner to diligently carry out duties of connector and plenum chamber cleanliness. Air rail integrity and attention to basic settings of ignition timing and ignition component cleaning.

Getting a badly neglected system back from the brink, however, requires even more diligent work by an enthusiastic owner.

These Efi systems are not the equivalent of today's modern computer system vehicles. "Plug, play and forget", simply does not wash with Bosch L Jetronic.

Yet despite all that, for their era and thirty years later, "excellent" is deffo the word. wink




smash

Original Poster:

2,062 posts

228 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
Cheers Stu - will email you.

Last word to the man who actually built my engine who says the main problem with the flapper 4CU is the harness. He recently had a new loom made up for a customer which with sorting out other settings resolved all problems and is now making better power than later hotwire system.

He also said the easy alternative is Edelbrock inlet and Weber 500 carb. Best power and throttle response will be quad webers but at expesne of mpg.

A new loom including fitting and tuning will cost £750 inc. VAT plus any other parts. Probably a grand including transport costs to get car there. So the cost of sorting the EFi by the original engine builder vs swithing to carb look similar. Decision time.

Probably best I don't post anything further until the engine is sorted (or the car is sold as is)

Edited by smash on Tuesday 2nd September 11:35

mrzigazaga

18,552 posts

165 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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Hi Smash...I think all this information is becoming a confusing mess...Now that you have replaced the ignition switch then its worth trying the spare ECU and AFM that i and Stu have...There are places that refurb the ECU for around £150...As honestjohn said sometimes the parts around the efi have just become a bit tired..Apparently the AFM's rarely fail, I have been reading some important info on them which states that they should NEVER be opened up...Oiled internally or cleaned with any abrasive chemicals and should have a scored tract albeit sometimes worn.

As mentioned the plugs and connectors should be cleaned of oxidisation and maintained with electrolube/Electrical contact cleaner periodically...I have cleaned all my plugs and connections relating to the ballast resistor..(Cable tied plug for anti-fallout)..Cleaned the ECU plug and contacts..TPS plugs and insulated the wires as this is one issue with brittling of the wire...AFM plug and openings...I regularly clean my spark plugs...Dizzy cap and rotor arm, Also coil connections.

I have learnt with the Wedges that they need regular fettling...Bit like an old british motorcycle...I also check clips and hoses at least once a week...Bearing in mind that i use mine as a daily drive...Although the weather dictates a lot of that...So before putting your hand in your pocket lets see what effect the spare ECU's & AFM have....

Also i remember talking with Mark Adams a couple of years ago and he said that a lot of people remove the ECU...Plonk it down on a table and set to it with inferior tools...Firstly the presence of ANY static will and can flatline the ECU and also some soldering irons can be too hot..So a little knowledge is a dangerous thing in this case.

Just keep looking at Septembers Wedge calendar pic...Inspiration is a good thing...Cheers...Ziga

adam quantrill

11,538 posts

242 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
smash said:
Last word to the man who actually built my engine who says the main problem with the flapper 4CU is the harness. He recently had a new loom made up for a customer which with sorting out other settings resolved all problems ¸,
A new loom including fitting and tuning will cost £750 inc. VAT plus any other parts.
That sounds incredibly expensive for a few bits of wire = presumably the eCU multiplug is not new either? Can't we get Rangey ones any more?

smash

Original Poster:

2,062 posts

228 months

Saturday 11th July 2015
quotequote all
Surprise - guess who? Should first apologise for the abuse on that other thread – I’m sorry about that. As V8Fettler said very perceptively the car had got under my skin completely and added with the varied points of view on offer about what was wrong/what should be tested I just flipped out. Again sorry.

What happened after that. Nothing for a long time I just left the car under its cover and forgot about it – simple as that – it just didn’t exist.

Then my brothers badgered me and kept badgering til in the end all three of us attacked it over a couple of wet days.



First thing first – massive over fueling. With plugs out it was sloshing out the bores on the left bank. Ended up with about 10 litres of very thin petrol y oil! Wiring continuity checks back to ECU were all good. We speculated as it appeared to be one bank and around number 1 in parituclar that it may be a stuck injector.

We pulled the injectors and sent them off for reconditioning. This is the report – a huge flow increase across the board but no stuck injectors.



Interesting they were in such an apparently bad way after just 56k miles tho. Whilst the injectors were out we pulled the dash to check all wiring and fixed some cracked insulation on a few wires whilst discovering the name of the person who put the interior together!







Injectors a back in and….same fecking over fueling. So off goes the ECU to ATP for remanufacture.

If anyone ever suggests resoldering your ECU just in case it has dry joints just don’t! (Maston – you listening?!) – I think this is what did for my ECU TBH.

Anyway on the ECUs return the car starts on the button – hot or cold and the very rich smell it always had on idle is gone.

A trip round the block reveals two things – 1) Holy fk what happened to the brakes?! Lots of pedal travel. And 2) it’s missing under any kind of load.

Running a spark gap jump test reveals a less than impressive spark and checking distributor operation reveals a completely blocked vac advance port on the plenum easily cleared.

At this point the car has a cheap aftermarket new dizzy on so I decide to order a genuine lucas ignition amp and fit to the old dizzy and reinstall.
While all this was going on the MOT ran out in June and that’s where we’re up to. It’s still under it’s cover.

I know I moaned about the wheel refurb I had done last year but I’m now bloody glad I had them diamond cut and lacquered rather than polished as they still look mint.

Plan now is refit old dizzy – possibly try direct live to coil and see what that does then MOT it (should pass).

In 2 years I’ve probably driven it less than 20 times. If anyone is genuinely interested in taking the car on to finish it then message me with offers. It has to go it's as simple as that. Fully poly bushed, adjustable suspension, massive history file, lovely, John Eales engine - pre NCK. re veneered dash and door handles etc. etc.

mrzigazaga

18,552 posts

165 months

Saturday 11th July 2015
quotequote all
smash said:
Here is the name of the person who put the interior together!



off goes the ECU to ATP for remanufacture.

If anyone ever suggests resoldering your ECU just in case it has dry joints just don’t! (Maston – you listening?!) –
Snap!...I have a dash that i picked up for mine once i recover it..



ECU....Well thats one thing i would NEVER tell anybody to do as they vary in heat range and if you do not use the correct soldering iron then you will damage either the board or some of the resistors...I also have it on good authority..(MA) that any small static charge can flatline them...Although mine has been rebuilt i still gave it to someone who knows what they are doing to check it over...Like i said to Ian...BBA Reman...They did a friends ECU who was having some bad running issues and its now like a new car...£200+ A lifetime guarantee .. Money very well spent.

Welcome back mate..smile

Wedg1e

26,799 posts

265 months

Sunday 12th July 2015
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I have the PCB from one of the aftermarket 'remanufactured' ECUs, minus its case and connector as I robbed them to build one of my diagnostic boxes, if anyone fancies playing with it.
I imagine it could be 'remapped' but how you'd go about it I have no idea... as I recall it was taken from an SD1 so should be a better match fuelling-wise than would one from a RangeRover.