RE: Tesla Model S: Delivery Miles
Discussion
kambites said:
dtmpower said:
So nothing to do with Flashplayer then....
Well it wouldn't be legal to use one to display anything "cinematographic" in view of the driver while driving. I think literally that means "moving images" so you could only use it to display static images? Many cars will be exported all round the globe, with different local rules on dash based content.
The lack of video is more likely to be that Tesla didn't implement html5 or Flash in their browser.
Quoted from Tesla Forums said:
I thought Elon said they weren't going to prevent this functionality?
...unless/until they are forced to by legislation.
...unless/until they are forced to by legislation.
Edited by dtmpower on Friday 8th August 16:40
I am currently on holiday in Sweden and have seen a lot of these going around, especially Norwegian registered examples (there are very significant tax breaks for this type of car in Norway). They are the first electric car that I have got excited about. They look good in a Jaguar XF sort of way (but the front grille of a big Pug saloon) but I am not too sold on over large touch screen; it does rather dominate the interior. Not surprisingly they are very quiet when they go past at city speeds, but I have heard the suspension creak on them as they drive by.
However, A Scotsman does actually raise a very genuine point about practical range. We have driven over to Sweden and in that time have covered over 1,600 miles and I have not seen any electric car charging points at all; including in the hotels that we have stayed in. I have done several journeys that have covered more than this cars theoretical maximum range in just one day. Where we have stopped for a bite to eat or a comfort break (not motorway service stations) I cannot see them being equipped with any type of charging station for the foreseeable future. Driving in Sweden is much more efficient thanks to having more sensible driving techniques, good road design, a lot more space and a lot less traffic, so our 1.6 petrol turbo Focus is now achieving over 500 miles per tank full and can be refuelled and off again in circa 5 minutes. While the Tesla is no doubt suitable for the daily commute to work, thanks to its limited range, or more significantly the limited charging infrastructure, especially away from main roads, I could not have it as an only car.
I should add that the cars I have seen in Sweden were either in Stockholm or within 100 miles or so of the Norwegian border. A quick look on the Tesla UK website reveals that the 300+mile range is quoted at a constant 55mph. Though probably achievable in countries like Sweden, I would doubt the average UK road is conducive to this (unless you live in Northern Scotland). What would be interesting to know is what effect cold temperatures have on the performance of the batteries and what would be the usable range in a Tesla that is 5 years old with the batteries beginning to trail off. I know it has a 8 year battery warranty but I doubt that will cover reduced performance with age; it is more likely to cover actual failure. Also how easy would it be to replace the battery pack given its location in the vehicle? Would it require a near total strip down to do it? I know the battery's are very costly, therefore would a 9 year old Tesla with a failing battery pack be pretty much scrap? These are all things I would want to know before committing £60k in to a new one or more likely £20 something k into a 3 - 4 year old one. Would it by then only be capable of a 200 mile range and have only 5 years usable life left in it (not good for residual values)?
On a more positive note I am pleased at the irony that it has taken the Americans to teach us Europeans how to make a proper electric car. I am even more pleased however to see the sheer number of American cars that they have in Sweden; no doubt aided by being LHD and also very keen on American culture (hmmm). On the west coast American muscle cars seem popular, and I must have seen 15 - 20 different current model mustangs and Corvettes each day. They also have Dodge chargers, challengers and other similar cars. American pickups are also popular. There are also a huge amount of classic American cars about, especially from the 50s - 70s and all shapes and sizes (big, bigger, biggest!) and one town we visited had just had an American car day and people were cruising around in them all evening. All this was a bit of a shock to us Brits who are told that Swedes are only interested in hugging trees! The opposite could not more true; when they are not tuning Volvos and Saabs, riding Harley Davidsons or driving American Muscle, they are flying around in a large number of very nice, high-power boats and yachts!
However, A Scotsman does actually raise a very genuine point about practical range. We have driven over to Sweden and in that time have covered over 1,600 miles and I have not seen any electric car charging points at all; including in the hotels that we have stayed in. I have done several journeys that have covered more than this cars theoretical maximum range in just one day. Where we have stopped for a bite to eat or a comfort break (not motorway service stations) I cannot see them being equipped with any type of charging station for the foreseeable future. Driving in Sweden is much more efficient thanks to having more sensible driving techniques, good road design, a lot more space and a lot less traffic, so our 1.6 petrol turbo Focus is now achieving over 500 miles per tank full and can be refuelled and off again in circa 5 minutes. While the Tesla is no doubt suitable for the daily commute to work, thanks to its limited range, or more significantly the limited charging infrastructure, especially away from main roads, I could not have it as an only car.
I should add that the cars I have seen in Sweden were either in Stockholm or within 100 miles or so of the Norwegian border. A quick look on the Tesla UK website reveals that the 300+mile range is quoted at a constant 55mph. Though probably achievable in countries like Sweden, I would doubt the average UK road is conducive to this (unless you live in Northern Scotland). What would be interesting to know is what effect cold temperatures have on the performance of the batteries and what would be the usable range in a Tesla that is 5 years old with the batteries beginning to trail off. I know it has a 8 year battery warranty but I doubt that will cover reduced performance with age; it is more likely to cover actual failure. Also how easy would it be to replace the battery pack given its location in the vehicle? Would it require a near total strip down to do it? I know the battery's are very costly, therefore would a 9 year old Tesla with a failing battery pack be pretty much scrap? These are all things I would want to know before committing £60k in to a new one or more likely £20 something k into a 3 - 4 year old one. Would it by then only be capable of a 200 mile range and have only 5 years usable life left in it (not good for residual values)?
On a more positive note I am pleased at the irony that it has taken the Americans to teach us Europeans how to make a proper electric car. I am even more pleased however to see the sheer number of American cars that they have in Sweden; no doubt aided by being LHD and also very keen on American culture (hmmm). On the west coast American muscle cars seem popular, and I must have seen 15 - 20 different current model mustangs and Corvettes each day. They also have Dodge chargers, challengers and other similar cars. American pickups are also popular. There are also a huge amount of classic American cars about, especially from the 50s - 70s and all shapes and sizes (big, bigger, biggest!) and one town we visited had just had an American car day and people were cruising around in them all evening. All this was a bit of a shock to us Brits who are told that Swedes are only interested in hugging trees! The opposite could not more true; when they are not tuning Volvos and Saabs, riding Harley Davidsons or driving American Muscle, they are flying around in a large number of very nice, high-power boats and yachts!
Edited by Alex P on Saturday 9th August 07:38
dvs_dave said:
A Scotsman said:
I drive quite regularly from the N of Scotland to Plymouth. It's about 650 miles which I can do comfortably in about 12hrs. I do not somehow envisage buying a car which would take me up to three days to do the same trip especially at Tesla prices.
I regularly fly from London to Hong Kong in about 12 hrs. It's about 6000 miles. I do not somehow envisage buying an aircraft which would take almost a week to do the same trip, especially at Cessna prices!Quite how you've managed to miss the point so spectacularly I don't know...
Its such an awesome car, I have no reservations about the future of performance cars, the Tesla is wicked, and with supercharge points soon, no issues on range either.
dvs_dave said:
A Scotsman said:
I drive quite regularly from the N of Scotland to Plymouth. It's about 650 miles which I can do comfortably in about 12hrs. I do not somehow envisage buying a car which would take me up to three days to do the same trip especially at Tesla prices.
I regularly fly from London to Hong Kong in about 12 hrs. It's about 6000 miles. I do not somehow envisage buying an aircraft which would take almost a week to do the same trip, especially at Cessna prices!Quite how you've managed to miss the point so spectacularly I don't know...
Sometimes I think the worst thing about the Internet is that you can't simply stare someone in the eye and say "really" shake your head and walk away before they beat you with experience.
DTMPower, apologies for singling out Flashplayer, it just happened to be the first app that my kids tried to download, which exposed Tesla's block on video playback tools. Thank you Kambites for pasting in the applicable law. As stated I am sure there are many ways around this. Video playback should be made available when stationary (charging for example) and should be easy to do in future software releases.
Alex P, if you are seriously interested then the Teslamotors and Tesla motors club forums are packed with answers to your questions, which have been discussed to death by the community. There is already a US Model S with 100,000 miles on it and the battery is within 5% of original range without any "re-balancing" being done to optimise the individual cells. The long warranty and Gigafactory plan is an indication of Tesla's belief in this tech.
As for long trips, the approach is just different. Last weekend I had the car sat outside a pub in a tiny village near Winchester charging from a 32A blue commando socket in the stables. The landlord thought it was terrific, and posted a picture on the pub's facebook page. The charging infrastructure gets better every day, and what people may not appreciate is how cool it is to start every day from home with a full battery and 250 miles range.
Alex P, if you are seriously interested then the Teslamotors and Tesla motors club forums are packed with answers to your questions, which have been discussed to death by the community. There is already a US Model S with 100,000 miles on it and the battery is within 5% of original range without any "re-balancing" being done to optimise the individual cells. The long warranty and Gigafactory plan is an indication of Tesla's belief in this tech.
As for long trips, the approach is just different. Last weekend I had the car sat outside a pub in a tiny village near Winchester charging from a 32A blue commando socket in the stables. The landlord thought it was terrific, and posted a picture on the pub's facebook page. The charging infrastructure gets better every day, and what people may not appreciate is how cool it is to start every day from home with a full battery and 250 miles range.
I'm reading up on these as much as I can at the moment and am seriously considering buying one within my company as my next daily. The BMW i8 has also got my attention, but the Tesla is clearly a lot more roomy and practical. Keep the debates and real world experiences coming please! 
I was all set for signing up then found out the 0% bik will change in April, most likely to 5%. Still cheaper than most other cars but theres no way Im going to put nearly £100ks worth of Tesla through by books at even 5%.
If the government are serious about getting us into electric cars theyre going to have to do better.
The p85 I drove was phenomenal it has to be said.
If the government are serious about getting us into electric cars theyre going to have to do better.
The p85 I drove was phenomenal it has to be said.
Aeroresh said:
Yeah but that £5000 is just lost by exaggerated purchase prices imo.
I think that whilst 5% bik is not that high, the chances are this will be increased year on year from now on and that combined with the high list price is enough to tip me the other way for now.
You know you only pay 20% of the 5% right? Or 40% if you are higher rate.I think that whilst 5% bik is not that high, the chances are this will be increased year on year from now on and that combined with the high list price is enough to tip me the other way for now.
So on a £60k car the taxable rate at 5% is £3000 and therefore you pay £600 or £1200 a year.
But you are right about increases... its going to end up ay 13% by 2018/19. You still save loads overall though. Here a link to a spreadsheet I did... it's about 2/3 down.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ztnqmhe57r274pf/BiKCar.x...
There's 2 pages, 1 for an i3 compared to a 120d (ie is a no brainer) and 1 for the Telsa 60kWh vs 535d. I think I'll redo that with an 85 at some point.
It' needs an update as someone pointed out an EV also reduces your employers NIC on BiK too, and also - I've now discovered Telsa already included the £5k discount.
I decided to go with an i3 for now. Despite having driven the Telsa which I prefer - I've got a few flats to build next year and need the cash for that. But come mid 2016, I'll be able to get the P85+ instead of the plain 85, maybe even a P100 AWD if rumours/internet expectations are true :-) My Mrs can have the i3 then as its a bit odd looking/girly, but drives really well which is what won me over. Fast enough for commuting when you can only do the same speed as everyone else.
AS a rough guide to financing - an 85 with a few options takes it to £67k, deposit £15k, £880 a month for 3 years. Then £30k final payment. Total Cost of the finance put me off (£75k)- would prefer to pay cash and save £7k and get the whole First year capital allowance.
The other thing is the i3 can drive itself in slow moving traffic and comes with adaptive cruise control and collision avoidance. In the Tesla you have to drive it all the time. My mrs is just doing driving lessons ... so it might stop her bumping into things. Would hate her to take the Telsa out and tell me she's bent it. LOL
Alex P said:
Also how easy would it be to replace the battery pack given its location in the vehicle? Would it require a near total strip down to do it?
90seconds or there about's... originally this was going to be an option at the charging stations, it still might be one day but Tesla have been abit quiet about it, still- the battery swap looks relatively "easy"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqN9-_7iNP8#t=8m38...
Not really sure what the purpose of these things are?? To fill a niche that doesn't really exist??? In the UK and across Europe you are offered diesel sipping options we were never given in the North America over that last 28 years.
It was 28 years ago that the CAFE fuel economy requirement was ended removing all restriction in law that required auto makers meet a minimum fuel economy target in what was sold in the US. Without this requirement in law every auto maker, even VW stopped offering diesel powered autos in the US in 1987 MY. In that one model year from 1986 to 1987 CAFE dropped from ~40 mpgUS to 25 mpgUS with the withdrawal of all auto diesels from sale in the US auto market. This number bottomed out in 2004 MY with the high numbers of loophole trucks being sold as autos at just above 10 mpgUS /- 23.5 L/100km /- 12.0 mpgImp! This is the climate these things were conceived of in.
IN the US because of the described above these things have been given a artificial market, combine that with the current overly stringent emissions on auto diesels. This climate and circumstance of a artificial market where in the US we are deprived the widely available fuel sipping small displacement gasoline and diesel manual trans option across all car lines like in Europe and around the world has given them a life, at least on paper.
But as the US starts in the 2014 MY to begin again to have real CAFE pushing for a requirement in law of a fleet average of 54.5 mpgUS/- 4.36 L/100km /- 61.5 mpgImp 2025 diesels will again begin to show in US sales. It will be quite hard indeed to give these things away in the US with diesel powered autos sipping fuel in the 40-50 mpgUS range finally showing in every auto makers fleets by 2017 or so........
A perfect example of how off kilter this market is a quick look at the current hybrid sales around the world. In the US where they are fuel economy over rated by 10-30 % above what they ever see in the real world...While the few diesels that are being offered are underestimated by 10-40 % below what they will see real world...Diesel fuel is over taxed for autos pushing the price up over RUG by 10-40 %.... THen we have a population not really smart enough to get it or not interested in getting the fact that even with the price per gallon disadvantage they still cost less per mile than all other options...
This has made it possible to make these look like they might make sense, when in the light of reality they really don't. AT the current sale price of these and hybrids a regular small gasoline car @ $12-15kUS dollars makes a lot more economic sense than any of these do @ 3-10 times the upfront cost along with their current levels of reasonable fuel consumption...
All of these things are being pushed on this not so fair of a playing field that really leaves out a lot of the truth that most americans are either too stupid to understand or not interested in...
This works out to a fact not even Toyota can get away from. In reality based markets where they actually have to compete with fuel sipping gasoline and diesel engine'd options they cannot give away their hybrid tech to other than governments in these countries. Even though Toyota has not offered a diesel powered option in the US market since 1986 hybrids make up less than 5 % of their total world wide output. While diesel powered options approach 60 % of world wide sales.... In countries where these hybrids and electrics have to competes with fuel sipping small displacement gasoline or diesel manual trans option cars they cannot give away the electric and hybrid autos...
I suspect these Tesla cars will meet the same resistance in these countries where they compete with on a even ground with fuel sipping gasoline and diesel options not available in the US....Time will tell, but I think today at least at the current price autos like the Tesla is a dead tech that hasn't been thrown in the grave and buried yet......
It was 28 years ago that the CAFE fuel economy requirement was ended removing all restriction in law that required auto makers meet a minimum fuel economy target in what was sold in the US. Without this requirement in law every auto maker, even VW stopped offering diesel powered autos in the US in 1987 MY. In that one model year from 1986 to 1987 CAFE dropped from ~40 mpgUS to 25 mpgUS with the withdrawal of all auto diesels from sale in the US auto market. This number bottomed out in 2004 MY with the high numbers of loophole trucks being sold as autos at just above 10 mpgUS /- 23.5 L/100km /- 12.0 mpgImp! This is the climate these things were conceived of in.
IN the US because of the described above these things have been given a artificial market, combine that with the current overly stringent emissions on auto diesels. This climate and circumstance of a artificial market where in the US we are deprived the widely available fuel sipping small displacement gasoline and diesel manual trans option across all car lines like in Europe and around the world has given them a life, at least on paper.
But as the US starts in the 2014 MY to begin again to have real CAFE pushing for a requirement in law of a fleet average of 54.5 mpgUS/- 4.36 L/100km /- 61.5 mpgImp 2025 diesels will again begin to show in US sales. It will be quite hard indeed to give these things away in the US with diesel powered autos sipping fuel in the 40-50 mpgUS range finally showing in every auto makers fleets by 2017 or so........
A perfect example of how off kilter this market is a quick look at the current hybrid sales around the world. In the US where they are fuel economy over rated by 10-30 % above what they ever see in the real world...While the few diesels that are being offered are underestimated by 10-40 % below what they will see real world...Diesel fuel is over taxed for autos pushing the price up over RUG by 10-40 %.... THen we have a population not really smart enough to get it or not interested in getting the fact that even with the price per gallon disadvantage they still cost less per mile than all other options...
This has made it possible to make these look like they might make sense, when in the light of reality they really don't. AT the current sale price of these and hybrids a regular small gasoline car @ $12-15kUS dollars makes a lot more economic sense than any of these do @ 3-10 times the upfront cost along with their current levels of reasonable fuel consumption...
All of these things are being pushed on this not so fair of a playing field that really leaves out a lot of the truth that most americans are either too stupid to understand or not interested in...
This works out to a fact not even Toyota can get away from. In reality based markets where they actually have to compete with fuel sipping gasoline and diesel engine'd options they cannot give away their hybrid tech to other than governments in these countries. Even though Toyota has not offered a diesel powered option in the US market since 1986 hybrids make up less than 5 % of their total world wide output. While diesel powered options approach 60 % of world wide sales.... In countries where these hybrids and electrics have to competes with fuel sipping small displacement gasoline or diesel manual trans option cars they cannot give away the electric and hybrid autos...
I suspect these Tesla cars will meet the same resistance in these countries where they compete with on a even ground with fuel sipping gasoline and diesel options not available in the US....Time will tell, but I think today at least at the current price autos like the Tesla is a dead tech that hasn't been thrown in the grave and buried yet......
JonnyVTEC said:
The new wave of 'clean diesels' in the states is a bit of a joke and evidently brain washing...
Wait til you start hearing those lovely 4 cylinder lumps 'sipping fuel'.... sipping fuel? Thats still using fuel yeah?
My first post was not a joke, not sure what you mean by still using fuel...Wait til you start hearing those lovely 4 cylinder lumps 'sipping fuel'.... sipping fuel? Thats still using fuel yeah?
Where do you think the majority of electricity these things require comes from?? In most parts of the world that electricity comes from burning a fuel like coal or Natural Gas. And it will continue to be nothing more than tail pipe shifting, that is really today and for the foreseeable future be no cleaner than any of the other available today auto power options. The data is starting to pile up showing that these things when you consider how dirty of job it is today manufacture those batteries along with where that power comes from are no cleaner than a auto with diesel power running on B20 diesel fuel.
Then throw in the fact that today driving one of these things makes little sense at all if you have to cover what is a normal driving distance in the US. A distance that can be easily today covered in a VW diesel on one tank without stopping. That same distance can take three days today when you figure in how many times and how long it takes to get the charge needed to cover the same distance!
Again, this is nothing more than a product that is a plaything to showoff by the wealthy that in no way meets the real driving needs of most. Especially in the US where the average driver needs to cover longer distances regularly.
A Scotsman said:
I drive quite regularly from the N of Scotland to Plymouth. It's about 650 miles which I can do comfortably in about 12hrs. I do not somehow envisage buying a car which would take me up to three days to do the same trip especially at Tesla prices.
Right. I've just spotted a pink elephant.Without stopping...at all, that's an average of 54mph, which is pretty much impossible nowadays, so with just a half hour break to eat your average rises by 2mph, make it a one hour stop...average increases to 59mph. I suspect a slight bending of the truth.
On another note, I saw a Tesla S 85 in Bridlington about a month ago, and it was on German plates !! Obviously the range wasn't an issue for the particular driver, nor the siting of charging points ( especially the superchargers ).
eta.....now munching on my words, as just checked with Autoroute...Inverness to Plymouth....11 hrs 40 mins.
Edited by delboy735 on Thursday 25th September 11:42
binberme said:
Again, this is nothing more than a product that is a plaything to showoff by the wealthy that in no way meets the real driving needs of most. Especially in the US where the average driver needs to cover longer distances regularly.
Oh I thought it was cited as a transport solution for all, what with its £50k entry price.binberme said:
My first post was not a joke, not sure what you mean by still using fuel...
Where do you think the majority of electricity these things require comes from?? In most parts of the world that electricity comes from burning a fuel like coal or Natural Gas. And it will continue to be nothing more than tail pipe shifting, that is really today and for the foreseeable future be no cleaner than any of the other available today auto power options. The data is starting to pile up showing that these things when you consider how dirty of job it is today manufacture those batteries along with where that power comes from are no cleaner than a auto with diesel power running on B20 diesel fuel.
Then throw in the fact that today driving one of these things makes little sense at all if you have to cover what is a normal driving distance in the US. A distance that can be easily today covered in a VW diesel on one tank without stopping. That same distance can take three days today when you figure in how many times and how long it takes to get the charge needed to cover the same distance!
Again, this is nothing more than a product that is a plaything to showoff by the wealthy that in no way meets the real driving needs of most. Especially in the US where the average driver needs to cover longer distances regularly.
Actually this point you raise (as a negative aspect) of where does the electricity come from is completely the opposite of what you think. Generating power from the IC engine is the most inefficient method.Where do you think the majority of electricity these things require comes from?? In most parts of the world that electricity comes from burning a fuel like coal or Natural Gas. And it will continue to be nothing more than tail pipe shifting, that is really today and for the foreseeable future be no cleaner than any of the other available today auto power options. The data is starting to pile up showing that these things when you consider how dirty of job it is today manufacture those batteries along with where that power comes from are no cleaner than a auto with diesel power running on B20 diesel fuel.
Then throw in the fact that today driving one of these things makes little sense at all if you have to cover what is a normal driving distance in the US. A distance that can be easily today covered in a VW diesel on one tank without stopping. That same distance can take three days today when you figure in how many times and how long it takes to get the charge needed to cover the same distance!
Again, this is nothing more than a product that is a plaything to showoff by the wealthy that in no way meets the real driving needs of most. Especially in the US where the average driver needs to cover longer distances regularly.
"Most steel engines have a thermodynamic limit of 37%. Even when aided with turbochargers and stock efficiency aids, most engines retain an average efficiency of about 18%-20%."
"Nuclear power facilities can produce energy at a 91 percent efficiency rate"
I believe Gas and Oil are 50-70%+ rate, possibly even higher (would need to find the research papers I read). Factor in the "cost" of transferring the power over the national grid and you are still hugely better off generating electricity in one place and then transferring it to your car. At night time many power plants run very under utilised, therefore allowing cars to use 'free energy' and make up the surplus. We are also advancing fuel cell technology which used correctly can increase efficiency of oil and gas plants, by a large factor.
Therefore, if all cars relied on a central power plant operating at 90%+ efficiency the actual waste and environmental losses would be dramatically reduced. Added to that hydro plants and wind farms, solar power and so on.
R&D into battery technology needs to continue to grow, there are already huge advances in batteries due to come out soon too.
Seeing as we can now generate power from the sun, wind and water - and transfer this directly to a car, as much as I hate to admit it, it's the future (or, one possible future...)
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