Another question about N rated tyres

[mollytherocker]

sidicks said:

No.

Most likely a slightly different compound to give different wear / grip characteristics.

Yes, but I think the key is that they are not necessarily 'better'. Tyres are a compromise between multiple factors. A tyre can never be everything in all weathers, all temperatures, on all cars and all driving styles.

[sidicks]

mollytherocker said:

Yes, but I think the key is that they are not necessarily 'better'. Tyres are a compromise between multiple factors. A tyre can never be everything in all weathers, all temperatures, on all cars and all driving styles.

Agreed.

[mrdemon]

sidicks said:

No.

Most likely a slightly different compound to give different wear / grip characteristics.

Not the CGT it seems that is an off the shelf compound.

[jamiemcwhir]

thegoose said:

The MSA magazine, which is "the MSA magazine for British Motorsport" and sent to all competition licence holders, arrived this morning (Autumn 2014).

On page 4 is a full page advertisement from Michelin (so presumably "our" Michelin man on this thread either had something to do with it, or at least knew about it before publication).

The ad is below. Maybe someone else knows different, but as far as I know there isn't an N rated version of the Cup 2, meaning one hasn't been specially tuned/tweaked/modified/whatever to meet approval, yet Michelin are using it prominently in their own advertising. Seems a little hypocritical, no?

At Present we have 11 different sizes of Pilot Sport Cup 2 which are N rated.

There are still more we are working on. So, whilst we are working as hard as we can on retro approval for some older cars, I don't see why it's hypocritical to mention the tyre in terms of "N" rating

[jamiemcwhir]

homerdog said:

So, in the meantime, are PS2 N rated tyres (which is what your configurator recommends) better suited to my Boxster than non-N rated PSS? For example, in terms of wear, grip and braking distances? Very interested to know, as I need some new tyres and I'd like to buy the right Michelins for my car!

It basically comes down to whether you want an "N" rated tyre or not. The PSS is a more modern tyre than the PS2. The PS2 "N" is the most recent tyre approved for your car.

Yes, it's annoying and frustrating. So, in most cases a tyre developed more recently will be perform better, as it's materials and technology will be more advanced. I'm not pretending that the PS2 "N" will be better than the PSS on your car, as it won't be. But the PSS isn't "N" rated.

[anonymous-user]

jamiemcwhir said:

It basically comes down to whether you want an "N" rated tyre or not. I'm not pretending that the PS2 "N" will be better than the PSS on your car, as it won't be. But the PSS isn't "N" rated.

That about sums it up.

[jamiemcwhir]

Orangecurry said:

225/40/18

Specifically tuned for which car? 996? 986? 993? 964?

265/35/18

Specifically tuned for which car? 996? 986? 993? 964?

285/30/18

Specifically tuned for which car? 996? 993T? 968?

Thanks!

Ok, all I can speak about is our range, as I don't know the intricacies of anyone else's range
And I will only cover "N" rated tyres. This is based on the information I have, so please guys don't shoot the messenger.. I was playing with racing cars when these tyres were launched, so I'm only relaying the information available to me today.

225/40-18- PS2 N3 for 996 Carrera and 986 Boxster fronts.

265/35-18- PS2 N3 for 964 Turbo Rear & cars above (996 & 986)

285/30-18- PS2 N3 for 996 Rear

Now, as previously discussed, if we consider that a "tweak" or change may work on one car, it may work on another car from the same "stable". Yes, the hot potato of Cayman vs. Carrera GT is probably too big a difference, a 996 to 986 is closer.
And Porsche and us do the testing, so it can be why there are some close situations where it works across the ranges. After all, like a bespoke suit, it could fit someone very well with a very similar physique.

[jon-]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

What if Porsches only requirement was increased mileage. Why couldn't that carry across between models?

[jon-]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Genuine question: Who's making the song and dance though, Michelin or Porsche? Who's making the claims the tyre is ok for multiple vehicles.

I'm not a Porsche person, but as far as I can tell it's Porsche who demand the OEs make bespoke tyres for their vehicles, and it's Porsche who insist you fit N rated tyres if you want to keep a warranty / allowed within 100 meters of an OPC etc etc. It's also Porsche that have the call in type approving a tyre for a vehicle, not Michelin.

Just seems to be wrong to be lambasting the Michelin guy, when they're just reacting to a demand placed on it by your manufacturer, and trying to be helpful to a community too.

[ORD]

"Dear Michelin,

Would you like to accept £10 more per tyre from our dealers to put a little N stamp on tyres? If so, we'll be able to charge about £50 more. All we need to do is agree with you "special" compounds and configurations for your usual tyres. You tell us what is special and we'll agree, or maybe we can define "special" and you can agree - let's chat.

Yours,

Porsche"

I think it's easy to understand Michelin's approach. No criticism at all of them, to be honest.

I don't quite agree with cmoose about the great differences between Porsches, though - in the grand scheme of all the types of demands put on a set of tyres, a Cayman/Boxster is probably not very different from a RWD 911. I can see that a Turbo might need different tyres, but something designed for a 911 would surely be a very good fit for a Cayman (assuming, which is obvious nonsense, that any material degree of designing tyres for Porsches takes place).

[thegoose]

jamiemcwhir said:

thegoose said:

The MSA magazine, which is "the MSA magazine for British Motorsport" and sent to all competition licence holders, arrived this morning (Autumn 2014).

On page 4 is a full page advertisement from Michelin (so presumably "our" Michelin man on this thread either had something to do with it, or at least knew about it before publication).

The ad is below. Maybe someone else knows different, but as far as I know there isn't an N rated version of the Cup 2, meaning one hasn't been specially tuned/tweaked/modified/whatever to meet approval, yet Michelin are using it prominently in their own advertising. Seems a little hypocritical, no?

At Present we have 11 different sizes of Pilot Sport Cup 2 which are N rated.

There are still more we are working on. So, whilst we are working as hard as we can on retro approval for some older cars, I don't see why it's hypocritical to mention the tyre in terms of "N" rating

Ok, so since that post of mine a couple of people posted below it to point out that the Cup 2 does come N rated in some sizes, but not for that car, so I wasn't right in general, but I was in the specifics of the car and advert that Michelin produced.

Michelin could have promoted the tyre using a car that they actually offer an N rated tyre for, but they didn't. They could have promoted an approved tyre for that car, but they didn't.

So, it's hypocritical because the tyre that's being promoted doesn't come in an N rated size suitable for the vehicle Michelin are promoting it on!!

It's just the same as Porsche using the PSS on their own cars at the PEC, specifically to demonstrate the performance capabilities of their cars, but not approving it for owners to use - that is also hypocritical.


Here's the first dictionary definition that came up on Google:
Hypocritical: behaving in a way that suggests one has higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case.

Seems appropriate to me.

[ORD]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I can certainly see Porsche asking for the changes that you mention. But I wouldn't call that a programme of optimisation, and it wouldn't be specific to the 911 or the Cayman. I am hugely cynical when it comes to "bespoke" products - the incentives just aren't there to do it in any substantial way. Asking Michelin to make a grippier but less durable version of the same tyre, though, I can see happening. More money for everyone involved and hardly much need for testing and re-testing, etc.

[Nurburgsingh]

REALIST123 said:

jamiemcwhir said:

It basically comes down to whether you want an "N" rated tyre or not. I'm not pretending that the PS2 "N" will be better than the PSS on your car, as it won't be. But the PSS isn't "N" rated.

That about sums it up.

This ^^

But unfortunately its not really up to the individual if they have a car thats covered by a Porsche Warranty.

Never used N rated tyres on the 44/68 - They were always fitted with Falkens, The 993 doesn't have N rated tyres- one set of Falkens that were replaced by a set of Sessantas, but the 997 is still under warranty and I'm shafted - Partly because Porsche can't make their minds up as to whether mixing N1 fronts and N2 rears of the same tyre on a car is a problem.

A couple of more general questions to the Michelin Man -

When you make a increment change to the N number for a particular tyre, in a specific size, do you still continue to make the 'old' one?
Now that the Pilot Sport Cup2 is out and standard fit on various cars will production of the Cup1 stop/reduce?

ta

[andyglos]

I really don't follow this shooting the messenger thread. All the Michelin guy is trying to do is provide useful info. If people aren't happy about N rated tyres, marketing blurb etc etc blah blah blah then just ditch the Porsche and buy another marque. Job done, stress stops.

[Orangecurry]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

That tyre already exists - the pure plastic Pirelli P6000.

[Orangecurry]

jamiemcwhir said:

Orangecurry said:

225/40/18

Specifically tuned for which car? 996? 986? 993? 964?

265/35/18

Specifically tuned for which car? 996? 986? 993? 964?

285/30/18

Specifically tuned for which car? 996? 993T? 968?

Thanks!

Ok, all I can speak about is our range, as I don't know the intricacies of anyone else's range
And I will only cover "N" rated tyres. This is based on the information I have, so please guys don't shoot the messenger.. I was playing with racing cars when these tyres were launched, so I'm only relaying the information available to me today.

225/40-18- PS2 N3 for 996 Carrera and 986 Boxster fronts.

265/35-18- PS2 N3 for 964 Turbo Rear & cars above (996 & 986)

285/30-18- PS2 N3 for 996 Rear

Now, as previously discussed, if we consider that a "tweak" or change may work on one car, it may work on another car from the same "stable". Yes, the hot potato of Cayman vs. Carrera GT is probably too big a difference, a 996 to 986 is closer.
And Porsche and us do the testing, so it can be why there are some close situations where it works across the ranges. After all, like a bespoke suit, it could fit someone very well with a very similar physique.

Thanks for answering the question, but I imagine you are reading the list of current recommendations?

Do you know which model of car the above tyres were optimised/tuned/designed for? If, as suggested above, the optimisation somehow covers more than one model, then it isn't optimisation.

The real problem that faces owners falls into two areas:

1) warranty, and the lack of choice and availabillity

2) as we are told only that N-rated is 'better' on every Porsche, with no specification to back that up, why wouldn't I choose a tyre that has been developed much more recently, as I agree with exactly what you said above, i.e.

jamiemcwhir said:

So, in most cases a tyre developed more recently will be perform better, as it's materials and technology will be more advanced. I'm not pretending that the PS2 "N" will be better than the PSS on your car, as it won't be. But the PSS isn't "N" rated.

And to clarify, as pointed out above, this whole issue isn't caused by Michelin, it's caused by Porsche, but Jamie telling us the N-rated tyres are 'different' doesn't help with issues 1) and 2) above.

[mollytherocker]

Orangecurry said:

That tyre already exists - the pure plastic Pirelli P6000.

You are not kidding. Terrible tyre!

[WindyMiller67]

As a 997.2 owner I wish Porsche and Michelin would bang their heads together and just N-rate the MPSS. These threads would just disappear.
It seems the issue is as much about the warranty as it is about the tyre.
Perhaps those of us with extended warranties should now direct some of this energy towards the insurance company providing the warranty and have the policy reworded to accept a non-N-rated tyre, but with specific exclusions. It's outrageous that the PEC use non-N-rated tyres on later models.

[ORD]

WindyMiller67 said:

As a 997.2 owner I wish Porsche and Michelin would bang their heads together and just N-rate the MPSS. These threads would just disappear.
It seems the issue is as much about the warranty as it is about the tyre.
Perhaps those of us with extended warranties should now direct some of this energy towards the insurance company providing the warranty and have the policy reworded to accept a non-N-rated tyre, but with specific exclusions. It's outrageous that the PEC use non-N-rated tyres on later models.

As far as I can tell, the warranty does not require the use of N-rated tyres. I read the papers that I could find and put this view forward quite some months ago and dared anyone to show me the words that require the use of N-rated tyres.

I lay down the gauntlet once more. Show me the money (words)!

[WindyMiller67]

ORD said:

Show me the money (words)!

This is another problem - no one is prepared to risk it! My OPC said they would turn a blind eye to after-market mesh grilles (standard on some models so can't possibly affect cooling/condensing), but I'd rather it was black and white. I can see how they can wriggle out of a cracked wheel claim with a non-N-rated tyre, but an O2 sensor? Roof blind? Water-filled rear light cluster (these are all things mine has had fixed under the warranty)?