Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

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Discussion

AlmostUseful

3,276 posts

199 months

Monday 18th August 2014
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Soov535 said:
Blimey, that blending needs to be sorted hehe
Ha, maybe next time I'll use a spray gun to feather it out rather than just masking it off and hoping for the best!
MS Paint to the rescue!

greygoose

8,225 posts

194 months

Monday 18th August 2014
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flemke said:
g3org3y said:
flemke said:
g3org3y said:
flemke said:
Something like this could be good on the F1:


Looks like the kind of thing girls in Essex have tattooed on their lower back. tongue out
Having seen not many, if any, Essex girls' lower backs, I could not say.

If there is a resemblance, are you sure that these sophisticated, sensitive ladies have not simply been inspired by examples of great pinstriping?
Having worked in Essex for the last 5 years, I've seen more of more Essex girls (in a professional capacity of course) than I care to remember!

The F1 is a very simple, clean and elegant design, especially compared to its contemporaries. Too many additional styling elements will only make it look fussy.

The pin stripes could work but the squiggle will (imvho) look crap. You shouldn't add it for the sake of adding it.

But then again it's your car. smile
The thing is, if you never try new things, you never learn anything and you never get anywhere. In trying new things, you must in advance reconcile yourself to the inevitability of occasional disappointment. If you are unwilling to do that, you might as well just copy other people, or do nothing at all.

You don't have to justify your decision to explore Essex girls and their lower backs to us wink .

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Monday 18th August 2014
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Tturbo said:
Just my opinion but I'm not a fan of the squiggle, in fact I thought it was a wind-up initially

I think that it's at odds with the original ethos of the car and an unnecessary adornment
Would you say that it is a more unnecessary adornment on a car than, say, Gordon Murray's or Michael Andretti's marking pen autograph? wink

For me, the ethos that matters, the main reason that I support McLaren, am chuffed when they do well and despair when they falter, is not the sterile, depersonalised, algorithm-driven world of the McLaren Technology Centre. Rather, for me the abiding ethos of McLaren is that of Bruce McLaren himself.

Bruce McLaren adopted industrial orange for his eponymous team's livery. His company logo featured a bird that could not fly. After childhood illness, throughout his adult life he hobbled around on a lame leg that was shorter than the other. He was not your typical plain vanilla guy.

At the same time that he was unorthodox, he was a very thoughtful, decent and honourable man. I never met him, although I have met some of his former colleagues, and I know his sister. I hope that I have some appreciation of the man's ethos.

I would speculate that, although Bruce McLaren might not like the particular squiggle my car now bears, he would "get it", and he would be in favour of the idea. If Ron Dennis were offended by it, I'm sorry, but that would be his problem.



flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Monday 18th August 2014
quotequote all
AlmostUseful said:
flemke said:
Symmetry was the question.

whistle
I found this


I think if this was flipped 180 degrees and tied in with line work to the edges of the panel

A bit like this


It would be way cooler. It's also a little aggressive for the cars shape I think - might suit a hot rod but not the F1, something in a similar style, but simpler and less sharp would be perfect (in my opinion)

I dabble in a bit of pinstriping and helmet painting so my opinions are generally formed around what I can do (badly) so they might be a little skewed and not necessarily what the rest of the world think!

Also, I don't think about these things in the depth that you so, I just like what I like. smile
This first shape reminded me too much of a cow's skull, but you may be right that it works better with the wide part forward.

Thank you for the suggestion.



flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Monday 18th August 2014
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GCH said:
flemke said:
For the life of me I cannot comprehend why anyone would sell, or buy, an expensive car at auction.

The fees charged are extortionate. The concept that the auction house - which is the agent of the seller, and which endeavours to achieve the highest possible price for the seller - should charge a huge fee as well to the buyer is almost absurd.

The concept that the auction house should get a fixed % fee, regardless of whether the item cost £1,000 or £10,000,000, is also impossible to justify. Nonetheless it happens, or at least it is how it happens at present. Let us hope that the auction business rationalises before long. I appreciate that buying a car on eBay is not quite the same thing as buying a book; nonetheless there is considerable room for improvement beyond this Pebble Beach/Amelia Island foolishness.

I can pretty much guarantee that the vendor - had he or she sold the car discreetly and privately, rather than attempting to sell it in a Pebble Beach circus - could have achieved the target price.
It is not always fixed as such - at many auction houses it will be staggered, for example 20% of 0-$XXXXX, and then 10% of $XXXXX and -$XXXXXX


Auction houses will fight to get lots like this for sale as well, and will often reduce significantly or waive sellers fees to do so. The buyers get screwed on the buyers premium (+VAT/tax) still, so they still make their money, just not at both ends, although for regular buyers/special clients there can be reduced buyers premiums too.
I myself have negotiated sellers fees down from near 20% to near 5% without much effort, and that was on something in the five figure range at a high end auction house, so nowhere near this level. They wanted the lot, so were happy to do so.


I agree though that the fees are rather high, and it strikes me as somewhat greedy to expect to get paid at both ends. I would certainly exhaust all other possible avenues before considering selling anything at auction again, let alone something at this level.
This is even better: the auction house charges the seller nothing, the auction house strains every sinew to achieve the highest possible price for the seller, and for their efforts the entire commission is paid for by the buyer. Sounds great!

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Monday 18th August 2014
quotequote all
HoagieLomax said:
Have any customer cars been independently weighed,just curious if there was any disparity between the quoted figure and the actual factory figure?

Cheers.
I have had mine corner weighted a number of times. That is part of a standard factory service. They give you a complete report when they return the car, and it includes a page with the corner weights.

I believe that McLaren were telling the truth when they listed the car's ex-factory weight as something like 1135 kg. I do not believe (but am not certain) that that was a dry weight, although I could not say how much fuel was in the tank.

When my car has been weighed at the factory, it's had a full tank of fuel, a bunch of stuff sitting in the 2 luggage lockers, a few things under the pax seats, a bigger radiator than standard, and a more powerful a/c unit (although I believe that the better a/c unit weighs no more than the original one did). (I think we need not worry about 6 CDs siting in the cassette. wink )

Over the years, the total weights have varied, but they have been between 1265 and 1285.

isaldiri

18,418 posts

167 months

Monday 18th August 2014
quotequote all
flemke said:
I don't really know anything technical about cars. What happened was that I thought that in two important areas, braking and handling, the car ought to be improved. I asked McLaren if they would help me in addressing those issues, and in effect they would/could not do so. That forced me to search for people who had the expertise to help me.
There was and is nobody out there with a "McLaren F1 Improvement Service". This meant that I had to be the project's general contractor, so to speak. Over the last 11 years, I have had to liaise with, I guess, 15-20 consultants and factories, regarding brakes, bushes, wheels, tyres, etc. They're the ones with the knowledge, although it has fallen to me to make the decisions and coordinate the work. In the process, I have picked up a few bits and pieces of information.
Flemke, cannot help but ask this one if you don't mind.

With the benefit of hindsight now, given how long your project to improve the car has taken (10 years that you have kindly been on PH answering us lot and even before that), have you ever wondered if you might have got more out of doing something simpler so that it could have been completed earlier and therefore could have driven the car more?

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Monday 18th August 2014
quotequote all
isaldiri said:
flemke said:
I don't really know anything technical about cars. What happened was that I thought that in two important areas, braking and handling, the car ought to be improved. I asked McLaren if they would help me in addressing those issues, and in effect they would/could not do so. That forced me to search for people who had the expertise to help me.
There was and is nobody out there with a "McLaren F1 Improvement Service". This meant that I had to be the project's general contractor, so to speak. Over the last 11 years, I have had to liaise with, I guess, 15-20 consultants and factories, regarding brakes, bushes, wheels, tyres, etc. They're the ones with the knowledge, although it has fallen to me to make the decisions and coordinate the work. In the process, I have picked up a few bits and pieces of information.
Flemke, cannot help but ask this one if you don't mind.

With the benefit of hindsight now, given how long your project to improve the car has taken (10 years that you have kindly been on PH answering us lot and even before that), have you ever wondered if you might have got more out of doing something simpler so that it could have been completed earlier and therefore could have driven the car more?
If I had done something simpler, I would not have been satisfied (unless magically I could have achieved as much in a shorter time or with less effort).
During and because of the process, I have learned a lot (relative to what I knew) about cars, and I have made a number of good new friends.
Also, it's not like I am burdened with all this time on my hands and nothing to do with it, when I could have been driving my F1 but instead I was stuck at home staring at the ceiling. I am fortunate to own other nice cars. I have not had enough time to drive them, even when the F1 was not in use. Had I spent more time driving it, there would have been even less time available for the others.
I could not say for certain whether the route taken was optimal in the circumstances, but I have done things my way and would do so again.

Cheers.



Rich_W

12,548 posts

211 months

Monday 18th August 2014
quotequote all
flemke said:
Tturbo said:
Just my opinion but I'm not a fan of the squiggle, in fact I thought it was a wind-up initially

I think that it's at odds with the original ethos of the car and an unnecessary adornment
Would you say that it is a more unnecessary adornment on a car than, say, Gordon Murray's or Michael Andretti's marking pen autograph? wink

For me, the ethos that matters, the main reason that I support McLaren, am chuffed when they do well and despair when they falter, is not the sterile, depersonalised, algorithm-driven world of the McLaren Technology Centre. Rather, for me the abiding ethos of McLaren is that of Bruce McLaren himself.

Bruce McLaren adopted industrial orange for his eponymous team's livery. His company logo featured a bird that could not fly. After childhood illness, throughout his adult life he hobbled around on a lame leg that was shorter than the other. He was not your typical plain vanilla guy.

At the same time that he was unorthodox, he was a very thoughtful, decent and honourable man. I never met him, although I have met some of his former colleagues, and I know his sister. I hope that I have some appreciation of the man's ethos.

I would speculate that, although Bruce McLaren might not like the particular squiggle my car now bears, he would "get it", and he would be in favour of the idea. If Ron Dennis were offended by it, I'm sorry, but that would be his problem.
IIRC you have the Kiwi logo on the car somewhere. Rear grille?

But no hint of the Orange as a tribute? Ever consider it with the old blue, or did you fear it would ape Gulf colours a bit too much?

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Monday 18th August 2014
quotequote all
Rich_W said:
flemke said:
Tturbo said:
Just my opinion but I'm not a fan of the squiggle, in fact I thought it was a wind-up initially

I think that it's at odds with the original ethos of the car and an unnecessary adornment
Would you say that it is a more unnecessary adornment on a car than, say, Gordon Murray's or Michael Andretti's marking pen autograph? wink

For me, the ethos that matters, the main reason that I support McLaren, am chuffed when they do well and despair when they falter, is not the sterile, depersonalised, algorithm-driven world of the McLaren Technology Centre. Rather, for me the abiding ethos of McLaren is that of Bruce McLaren himself.

Bruce McLaren adopted industrial orange for his eponymous team's livery. His company logo featured a bird that could not fly. After childhood illness, throughout his adult life he hobbled around on a lame leg that was shorter than the other. He was not your typical plain vanilla guy.

At the same time that he was unorthodox, he was a very thoughtful, decent and honourable man. I never met him, although I have met some of his former colleagues, and I know his sister. I hope that I have some appreciation of the man's ethos.

I would speculate that, although Bruce McLaren might not like the particular squiggle my car now bears, he would "get it", and he would be in favour of the idea. If Ron Dennis were offended by it, I'm sorry, but that would be his problem.
IIRC you have the Kiwi logo on the car somewhere. Rear grille?

But no hint of the Orange as a tribute? Ever consider it with the old blue, or did you fear it would ape Gulf colours a bit too much?
Yes, there is an enamel "Bruce McLaren Motor Racing Team" badge on the rear grille, left side. There will be the same on the P1.

I've never really looked for a spot to include some orange, as the colour wouldn't really go with either the former paint colour or the current one. There aren't many colours that work with that orange! The historic badge is my gesture of respect to the team's heritage.



isaldiri

18,418 posts

167 months

Monday 18th August 2014
quotequote all
flemke said:
If I had done something simpler, I would not have been satisfied (unless magically I could have achieved as much in a shorter time or with less effort).
During and because of the process, I have learned a lot (relative to what I knew) about cars, and I have made a number of good new friends.
Also, it's not like I am burdened with all this time on my hands and nothing to do with it, when I could have been driving my F1 but instead I was stuck at home staring at the ceiling. I am fortunate to own other nice cars. I have not had enough time to drive them, even when the F1 was not in use. Had I spent more time driving it, there would have been even less time available for the others.
I could not say for certain whether the route taken was optimal in the circumstances, but I have done things my way and would do so again.

Cheers.
Interesting that, thanks. Have to say, i hope if I ever managed somehow to get a F1, i would be as aware of the handling issues that you highlighted but while i like the look of the standard car a good bit more, i would probably have done the easy thing and just put on the HDF kit. Ah well, let me work on the getting a F1 bit first I guess! wobble

Best of luck to get the carbon brakes sorted soon...

Mjunkie

12 posts

115 months

Monday 18th August 2014
quotequote all
Do you know the difference in material on the sports exhaust? I remember reading that the standard one was made of a type of steel used in the filaments of electric fires but am not sure on the manifolds and how the sports one differs.

Also have you looked into carbon fibre wheels? From what I have read they seem to be working out quite well.

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Tuesday 19th August 2014
quotequote all
Mjunkie said:
Do you know the difference in material on the sports exhaust? I remember reading that the standard one was made of a type of steel used in the filaments of electric fires but am not sure on the manifolds and how the sports one differs.

Also have you looked into carbon fibre wheels? From what I have read they seem to be working out quite well.
I'm waiting for them to get back to me on the details of the titanium exhaust, but I presume that it is everything rear of the cats.

This is the standard unit, with the 4 cats sitting horizontally, followed by the 120 deg bend down into the titanium silencer box/crash structure:




This is the "sports exhaust" version:




Wrt carbon wheels, I'm not sure who makes them now that the original company that made them (Dymag?) has gone out of business. The Dymags had a carbon rim and mag centre. The other day I did see what appeared to be full carbon wheels on a Koenigsegg, but I presume that they are specific to that carmaker.

Regardless, I would not use a carbon rim on a road car. Carbon fibre is a lovely material. However, when aluminium and magnesium reach their failure point they deform, whereas when carbon fibre reaches its failure point it shatters. Although that is probably acceptable on a racing car, to my mind it would not be acceptable on a road car when there may be innocent bystanders exposed to a wheel-less, out-of-control vehicle.

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Tuesday 19th August 2014
quotequote all
isaldiri said:
flemke said:
If I had done something simpler, I would not have been satisfied (unless magically I could have achieved as much in a shorter time or with less effort).
During and because of the process, I have learned a lot (relative to what I knew) about cars, and I have made a number of good new friends.
Also, it's not like I am burdened with all this time on my hands and nothing to do with it, when I could have been driving my F1 but instead I was stuck at home staring at the ceiling. I am fortunate to own other nice cars. I have not had enough time to drive them, even when the F1 was not in use. Had I spent more time driving it, there would have been even less time available for the others.
I could not say for certain whether the route taken was optimal in the circumstances, but I have done things my way and would do so again.

Cheers.
Interesting that, thanks. Have to say, i hope if I ever managed somehow to get a F1, i would be as aware of the handling issues that you highlighted but while i like the look of the standard car a good bit more, i would probably have done the easy thing and just put on the HDF kit. Ah well, let me work on the getting a F1 bit first I guess! wobble

Best of luck to get the carbon brakes sorted soon...
Cheers.

Davey S2

13,075 posts

253 months

Tuesday 19th August 2014
quotequote all
flemke said:
This is the "sports exhaust" version:

Isn't fitting a stainless steel exhaust system a bit of a backward step given the original is inconel which is supposed to be far superior than both titanium and SS which is why it was used in the first place?

Dave Hedgehog

14,541 posts

203 months

Tuesday 19th August 2014
quotequote all
Davey S2 said:
flemke said:
This is the "sports exhaust" version:

Isn't fitting a stainless steel exhaust system a bit of a backward step given the original is inconel which is supposed to be far superior than both titanium and SS which is why it was used in the first place?
presumably the factory one complies with noise regs and this one does not

zhead

1,180 posts

200 months

Tuesday 19th August 2014
quotequote all
Just been reading more about the F1 (must admit, was a little confused by the differing types offered) and read this section on Wikipedia:

Wikipedia says said:
The normal McLaren F1 features no wings to produce downforce (compare the LM and GTR editions); however, the overall design of the underbody of the McLaren F1 in addition to a rear diffuser exploits ground effect to improve downforce which is increased through the use of two electric Kevlar fans to further decrease the pressure under the car.[21] A "high downforce mode" can be turned on and off by the driver.[21] At the top of the vehicle, there is an air intake to direct high pressure air to the engine with a low pressure exit point at the top of the very rear.[21] Under each door is a small air intake to provide cooling for the oil tank and some of the electronics.[21] The airflow created by the electric fans not only increase downforce, but the airflow that is created is further exploited through design, by being directed through the engine bay to provide additional cooling for the engine and the ECU.[21] At the front, there are ducts assisted by a Kevlar electric suction fan for cooling of the front brakes.
I had no idea that the F1 effectively ran a ground effect system - I'd never heard of it before. Knowing the approach to design and focus on everything playing it's part I'm sure it contributes but Flemke, is it noticeable when you turn these fans on?

And a boring question - where are the switches to turn these fans on and off?

Mjunkie

12 posts

115 months

Tuesday 19th August 2014
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So did quick silver make the sports exhuast or is that just an example of something similar?

sinbad666

184 posts

207 months

Wednesday 20th August 2014
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Hi Flemke,

Not sure if you have seen it already but this is the video of inside Koenigsegg in which Christian Von Koenigsegg explains the manufacturing process and reason behind carbon wheels for the One:1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGGiuaQwcd8

Chris

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Wednesday 20th August 2014
quotequote all
Davey S2 said:
flemke said:
This is the "sports exhaust" version:

Isn't fitting a stainless steel exhaust system a bit of a backward step given the original is inconel which is supposed to be far superior than both titanium and SS which is why it was used in the first place?
The factory system originally in the road cars is the "drum" that doubles as a crash structure.
For more than a decade the factory have offered two sound levels of "sports exhaust" which look like the Quicksilver system and (I would guess) are in fact fabricated by Quicksilver. This is in stainless, and is what is on my car at present.
McLaren have just started to offer a titanium version of what I believe is the same. I presume that it is the ti version by Quicksilver. What they have not yet told me is the weight reduction with the ti version.