Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
coyft said:
Are you pleased with your P1 purchase Flemke? Given your choice of cars, the state of our roads, ever increasing cameras do you think you'll get to use it much?
It's essentially what I expected. No, I don't think I'll drive it much, for the reasons you cite but also and especially because of a lack of free time.Given a wide country road and not too much traffic, it is a fun thing to drive, but I'm not sure if any such roads can be found in Britain.
ajjers said:
flemke said:
Seeing as how the differences these various tyres might make is very important to you, perhaps you could supply us with test results or an assessment that is more authoritative than an anecdote provided by an anonymous guy in a Ferrari chat room.
It would not surprise me at all if the LaF were quicker around a circuit than either the 918 and the P1. It weighs less, has more power, and Ferrari know more than enough about aero and about how to generate traction and how to make a car handle.
The shortcomings of the LaF are not speed-related. Rather they derive from its poor build quality and sheer ugliness. Having the owner's name inlaid into the steeringwheel rectangle does not really impart a lot of class either.
Cheers.
I accepted that the scud owners results were anecdotal when I first posted them but they are unbiased because they had nothing to do with the 918/P1 discussion. If you really are in doubt about what the Trofeo R can do for a car then take a look at thisIt would not surprise me at all if the LaF were quicker around a circuit than either the 918 and the P1. It weighs less, has more power, and Ferrari know more than enough about aero and about how to generate traction and how to make a car handle.
The shortcomings of the LaF are not speed-related. Rather they derive from its poor build quality and sheer ugliness. Having the owner's name inlaid into the steering
Cheers.
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2014/10/2014-chevrolet...
It certainly surprises me that a Laferrari could be faster than a P1 or a 918 on track like Anglesey. I would have thought looking at the design that it generates less downforce and wasn't so sure about the quality of its brakes compared to the other two.
A lot of things about a car are subjective but surely you accept that looks are the most subjective aspect. The Laferrari certainly isn't pretty but in my view that is a hugely overrated virtue in car design. It looks best in colours that soften some of the sharp angles, something like tdf blue or some of the grigio's. You can call it ugly if you want to but as someone who appreciates a bit of brutalist architecture and thinks the e60 was the best bit of mainstream car design in the last two decades I shall beg to differ.
As for build quality I shall defer to your obvious knowledge in this matter. All I will say is that some of the bigger panel gaps clearly just pay homage to its predecessors!
The guy who claimed that the Trofeo R is 1.5-2.0 sec/minute faster may not have had a prejudice, but that would not mean that his assessment was correct. It is hard enough to get professionals to agree on something. An amateur's opinion is generally worth what the amateur got paid to offer it.
As for aesthetics, this is always an interesting one. Of course, just because something cannot (as of today) be measured with numbers does not mean that it cannot be judged.
When people argue that aesthetics are necessarily and exclusively subjective, they seem to be confusing taste with quality.
I prefer some styles or types of art to others. For example, although I love music I dislike opera. Although almost any piece of opera that I hear I shall find disagreeable (taste), I know that some operas and some opera performers will be much better than others (quality). It's just that I myself am completely unequipped to form any sort of even minimally worthwhile opinion on them.
The same applies to most everything else. We all are equally entitled to have an opinion, but that does not mean that every opinion will be equally substantial and worthwhile.
The funny thing about Ferrari is that with their cars they almost always get the proportions right. The problem is that they typically get the details wrong, and in many cases so wrong that the entire car is ruined. For decades now, Ferrari after Ferrari has had handsome proportions and something between dubious and farcical details. The Laff is the latest in the line of these failures.
Max_Torque said:
Unless all three cars are being compared on the same day, under exactly the same conditions, with exactly the same driver, all the results are null and void. None of these cars is going to be more than a few tenths faster or slower here or there. Watch the Evo videos and you can see driving "mistakes" in both cars that cost laptime.
TBH, arguing "which is faster" is a bit like trying to argue which F1 car/team should be world champion without actually racing them............
And even when all conditions are theoretically the same, a particular car will suit one kind of driver better than it will another kind of driver. Just ask Sebastien Vettel. TBH, arguing "which is faster" is a bit like trying to argue which F1 car/team should be world champion without actually racing them............
flemke said:
Wrt Laff, I at least am not able to eyeball a car and judge how aerodynamically effective it may be. As for its brakes, these days all the carmakers are supplied by a small number of carbon-ceramic brake manufacturers, so the systems are pretty much the same from one marque to the next, at least in terms of sheer braking power. Insofar as the Laff is the lightest of the 3 cars, that would suggest that its brakes ought to be, if anything, the best of the 3.
The guy who claimed that the Trofeo R is 1.5-2.0 sec/minute faster may not have had a prejudice, but that would not mean that his assessment was correct. It is hard enough to get professionals to agree on something. An amateur's opinion is generally worth what the amateur got paid to offer it.
As for aesthetics, this is always an interesting one. Of course, just because something cannot (as of today) be measured with numbers does not mean that it cannot be judged.
When people argue that aesthetics are necessarily and exclusively subjective, they seem to be confusing taste with quality.
I prefer some styles or types of art to others. For example, although I love music I dislike opera. Although almost any piece of opera that I hear I shall find disagreeable (taste), I know that some operas and some opera performers will be much better than others (quality). It's just that I myself am completely unequipped to form any sort of even minimally worthwhile opinion on them.
The same applies to most everything else. We all are equally entitled to have an opinion, but that does not mean that every opinion will be equally substantial and worthwhile.
The funny thing about Ferrari is that with their cars they almost always get the proportions right. The problem is that they typically get the details wrong, and in many cases so wrong that the entire car is ruined. For decades now, Ferrari after Ferrari has had handsome proportions and something between dubious and farcical details. The Laff is the latest in the line of these failures.
Wrt to the Trofeo's R, Jethro has shared some additional information on twitter. The best time was achieved on the second lap and thereafter performance gradually declined. By the end of just 5 laps they were done. Given the Cup 2s and the Corsas used on the initial runs weren't fresh, perhaps the performance improvement in the P1 was more a consequence of brand new tyres rather than the superiority of the Trofeo's per se - the thread pattern certainly is similar to the cup 2s but the compound seems much softer. You might be surprised to hear that Porsche and Michellin are producing an even more track orientated version of the Cup 2 for the 918 and also the forthcoming Gt3rs. The guy who claimed that the Trofeo R is 1.5-2.0 sec/minute faster may not have had a prejudice, but that would not mean that his assessment was correct. It is hard enough to get professionals to agree on something. An amateur's opinion is generally worth what the amateur got paid to offer it.
As for aesthetics, this is always an interesting one. Of course, just because something cannot (as of today) be measured with numbers does not mean that it cannot be judged.
When people argue that aesthetics are necessarily and exclusively subjective, they seem to be confusing taste with quality.
I prefer some styles or types of art to others. For example, although I love music I dislike opera. Although almost any piece of opera that I hear I shall find disagreeable (taste), I know that some operas and some opera performers will be much better than others (quality). It's just that I myself am completely unequipped to form any sort of even minimally worthwhile opinion on them.
The same applies to most everything else. We all are equally entitled to have an opinion, but that does not mean that every opinion will be equally substantial and worthwhile.
The funny thing about Ferrari is that with their cars they almost always get the proportions right. The problem is that they typically get the details wrong, and in many cases so wrong that the entire car is ruined. For decades now, Ferrari after Ferrari has had handsome proportions and something between dubious and farcical details. The Laff is the latest in the line of these failures.
I was quite surprised, given its extra weight, that the 918 outbraked the P1 in the Top Gear test earlier in the year (71m vs 76m 100-0) and also, if I recall correctly, in the Autocar tests. However perhaps this may have been tyre related rather than due to the quality of the brakes.
I agree that subjective things can be judged (we do it all the time) and I also like your point about taste and quality. What I object to the notion that cars (or indeed buildings) should be beautiful or worse still, pretty. To my mind the 918 is most beautiful of the three but it is also probably the one that I find least interesting to look at. Another example is the w220 S class which I regard as a perfectly handsome four door saloon, yet I never give one a second look, as opposed to the e60 BMW which still catches my attention pretty much every time I see one.
The problem with having "correct" proportions and such like is that it discourages challenging designs and encourages uniformity. Fed on an unending diet of masterpieces one eventually grows weary.
ajjers said:
Wrt to the Trofeo's R, Jethro has shared some additional information on twitter. The best time was achieved on the second lap and thereafter performance gradually declined. By the end of just 5 laps they were done. Given the Cup 2s and the Corsas used on the initial runs weren't fresh, perhaps the performance improvement in the P1 was more a consequence of brand new tyres rather than the superiority of the Trofeo's per se - the thread pattern certainly is similar to the cup 2s but the compound seems much softer.
Were they useless after 5 laps because of overheating, or because they were genuinely shot? I would be pretty pIssed off if I'd paid likely 2k for a set of tyres which only provided grip for 5 laps - unless those laps were showing off for the cameras.ajjers said:
I agree that subjective things can be judged (we do it all the time) and I also like your point about taste and quality. What I object to the notion that cars (or indeed buildings) should be beautiful or worse still, pretty. To my mind the 918 is most beautiful of the three but it is also probably the one that I find least interesting to look at. Another example is the w220 S class which I regard as a perfectly handsome four door saloon, yet I never give one a second look, as opposed to the e60 BMW which still catches my attention pretty much every time I see one.
I have never heard anyone say they like the e60/61 design - it was awful - and I say that as someone who had a 61 for a few years. Though based on Flemke's guidelines (he is likely right that) i should not be allowed an opinion. 
If theres one thing this thread proves, its that the mclaren fanboys dont like iy up'em 
a fair round up of the hypercar debate so far would seem to be....
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit had a more experienced specialist driver in that circuit.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with the same driver had better tyres.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with similar tyres had factory support.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with no factory support had better weather.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with the same weather is plane ugly and will fall to bits in 5 mins.
Fitting a P1 with the stickiest of gumball tyres that last less than 5 laps and running in mode that isn't street legal is simply putting it on an even footing with any other car that obviously had better tyres, better drivers, more support and better weather conditions.
Oh, and if you didn't buy a P1 you have no taste, no personality, no class and are basically a materialistic chav (colour dependant) for not bowing down to felate Ron Dennis whilst he sticks his fingers in his ears and repeatadly shouts "fastest around any circuit, fastest around any circuit......"
a fair round up of the hypercar debate so far would seem to be....Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit had a more experienced specialist driver in that circuit.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with the same driver had better tyres.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with similar tyres had factory support.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with no factory support had better weather.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with the same weather is plane ugly and will fall to bits in 5 mins.
Fitting a P1 with the stickiest of gumball tyres that last less than 5 laps and running in mode that isn't street legal is simply putting it on an even footing with any other car that obviously had better tyres, better drivers, more support and better weather conditions.
Oh, and if you didn't buy a P1 you have no taste, no personality, no class and are basically a materialistic chav (colour dependant) for not bowing down to felate Ron Dennis whilst he sticks his fingers in his ears and repeatadly shouts "fastest around any circuit, fastest around any circuit......"
Joe911 said:
Were they useless after 5 laps because of overheating, or because they were genuinely shot? I would be pretty pIssed off if I'd paid likely 2k for a set of tyres which only provided grip for 5 laps - unless those laps were showing off for the cameras.
Given how journalists drive as they aren't paying for tires, 5 laps wasn't so bad I reckon. Harris went through a set of supersports at Anglesey in a F12 in what 2 laps or something?Pretty certain a friend of mine has had his car round Spa over 15 laps (plus drove back home 500+km) on Trofeos so I don't think the 5 laps is representative of how long the trofeos will truly last (without all the journalist sideways driving).
ajjers said:
You might be surprised to hear that Porsche and Michellin are producing an even more track orientated version of the Cup 2 for the 918 and also the forthcoming Gt3rs.
I am surprised - as if the world needed an even stickier, even more impractical track-day tyre for some hitherto-undiscovered-by-grown-ups purpose!ajjers said:
I was quite surprised, given its extra weight, that the 918 outbraked the P1 in the Top Gear test earlier in the year (71m vs 76m 100-0) and also, if I recall correctly, in the Autocar tests. However perhaps this may have been tyre related rather than due to the quality of the brakes.
Could be tyre-related, although I wonder if there is something in the way the brake regen systems in the 918 and Laff function that assists in the initial braking process?ajjers said:
I agree that subjective things can be judged (we do it all the time) and I also like your point about taste and quality. What I object to the notion that cars (or indeed buildings) should be beautiful or worse still, pretty. To my mind the 918 is most beautiful of the three but it is also probably the one that I find least interesting to look at. Another example is the w220 S class which I regard as a perfectly handsome four door saloon, yet I never give one a second look, as opposed to the e60 BMW which still catches my attention pretty much every time I see one.
The problem with having "correct" proportions and such like is that it discourages challenging designs and encourages uniformity. Fed on an unending diet of masterpieces one eventually grows weary.
There is not a single set of "correct" proportions. The notion of a "Golden Section" is complete bull5hit. What proportions work is specific to the individual circumstances. Anyone who designs by the numbers is on a hiding to nothing, and it is indeed this fact that encourages challenging designs and discourages uniformity and conformity.The problem with having "correct" proportions and such like is that it discourages challenging designs and encourages uniformity. Fed on an unending diet of masterpieces one eventually grows weary.
One grows weary of an "unending diet of masterpieces"? We'll have to disagree on that one! One of the factors that make something a masterpiece (I'd rather say "a great piece of art", to get away from the concept of a "master" whose work might wrongly be presumed always to be great simply because he's thought to be a master) is precisely that it either breaks new ground or transcends what has come before it.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
If theres one thing this thread proves, its that the mclaren fanboys dont like iy up'em a fair round up of the hypercar debate so far would seem to be....
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit had a more experienced specialist driver in that circuit.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with the same driver had better tyres.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with similar tyres had factory support.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with no factory support had better weather.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with the same weather is plane ugly and will fall to bits in 5 mins.
Fitting a P1 with the stickiest of gumball tyres that last less than 5 laps and running in mode that isn't street legal is simply putting it on an even footing with any other car that obviously had better tyres, better drivers, more support and better weather conditions.
Really? a fair round up of the hypercar debate so far would seem to be....Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit had a more experienced specialist driver in that circuit.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with the same driver had better tyres.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with similar tyres had factory support.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with no factory support had better weather.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with the same weather is plane ugly and will fall to bits in 5 mins.
Fitting a P1 with the stickiest of gumball tyres that last less than 5 laps and running in mode that isn't street legal is simply putting it on an even footing with any other car that obviously had better tyres, better drivers, more support and better weather conditions.
flemke said:
As I said above, one would expect that LaFF to be quicker around a circuit.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Oh, and if you didn't buy a P1 you have no taste, no personality, no class and are basically a materialistic chav (colour dependant) for not bowing down to felate Ron Dennis whilst he sticks his fingers in his ears and repeatadly shouts "fastest around any circuit, fastest around any circuit......"
This thread seems to cause you discomfort on a regular basis. Unless you have psychological needs similar to Max Mosley's, wouldn't you be happier by simply ignoring us on this thread and applying your insight and wit to places that are more deserving of it?
flemke said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
If theres one thing this thread proves, its that the mclaren fanboys dont like it up'em a fair round up of the hypercar debate so far would seem to be....
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit had a more experienced specialist driver in that circuit.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with the same driver had better tyres.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with similar tyres had factory support.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with no factory support had better weather.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with the same weather is plane ugly and will fall to bits in 5 mins.
Fitting a P1 with the stickiest of gumball tyres that last less than 5 laps and running in mode that isn't street legal is simply putting it on an even footing with any other car that obviously had better tyres, better drivers, more support and better weather conditions.
Really? a fair round up of the hypercar debate so far would seem to be....Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit had a more experienced specialist driver in that circuit.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with the same driver had better tyres.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with similar tyres had factory support.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with no factory support had better weather.
Any car faster than a P1 around a circuit with the same weather is plane ugly and will fall to bits in 5 mins.
Fitting a P1 with the stickiest of gumball tyres that last less than 5 laps and running in mode that isn't street legal is simply putting it on an even footing with any other car that obviously had better tyres, better drivers, more support and better weather conditions.
flemke said:
(the day after it had been announced the Laff went quicker) As I said, one would expect that LaFF to be quicker around a circuit.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Oh, and if you didn't buy a P1 you have no taste, no personality, no class and are basically a materialistic chav (colour dependant) for not bowing down to felate Ron Dennis whilst he sticks his fingers in his ears and repeatadly shouts "fastest around any circuit, fastest around any circuit......"
This thread seems to cause you discomfort on a regular basis. Unless you have psychological needs similar to Max Mosley's, wouldn't you be happier by simply ignoring us on this thread and applying your insight and wit to places that are more deserving of it?
though i think i'll refer you to my original comment above (see bold). Your protestations that nothing can be superior to what you've decided aside, i do love to read some in depth details of cars ill never drive, let alone own.So i'll look forward to less "everything that isn't mclaren is rubbish" and more "check out the castings on these uprights", once the fanboyism has died down slightly natch
Joe911 said:
I have never heard anyone say they like the e60/61 design - it was awful - and I say that as someone who had a 61 for a few years. Though based on Flemke's guidelines (he is likely right that) i should not be allowed an opinion.
I like it. I had an E60 for a couple of years and was very sorry to see it go. Always liked the look of it!Joe911 said:
ajjers said:
Wrt to the Trofeo's R, Jethro has shared some additional information on twitter. The best time was achieved on the second lap and thereafter performance gradually declined. By the end of just 5 laps they were done. Given the Cup 2s and the Corsas used on the initial runs weren't fresh, perhaps the performance improvement in the P1 was more a consequence of brand new tyres rather than the superiority of the Trofeo's per se - the thread pattern certainly is similar to the cup 2s but the compound seems much softer.
Were they useless after 5 laps because of overheating, or because they were genuinely shot? I would be pretty pIssed off if I'd paid likely 2k for a set of tyres which only provided grip for 5 laps - unless those laps were showing off for the cameras.flemke said:
There is not a single set of "correct" proportions. The notion of a "Golden Section" is complete bull5hit. What proportions work is specific to the individual circumstances. Anyone who designs by the numbers is on a hiding to nothing, and it is indeed this fact that encourages challenging designs and discourages uniformity and conformity.
Malcolm Sayer didn't do too badly literally designing by numbers.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff