Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

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flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Tuesday 30th June 2015
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Joe911 said:
buckle88 said:
I've seen this a few places this morning, anyone know if there's any truth to it or is it a photoshop project that people have taken seriously?

"McLaren P1 XP Carbon Series Red! Only 5 will be made for about $2.7m each."

Surely having said they wouldn't make special editions and then making the GTR they're just rubbing salt into the wound if they start throwing these out!

Totally accurate genuine news on this here:
http://thesupercarkids.com/five-xp-mclaren-p1-are-...
Yes, "The Supercarkids" are always my go-to source of information, the Final Authority on motor cars.

Petrus1983

8,521 posts

161 months

Tuesday 30th June 2015
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laugh

andyps

7,817 posts

281 months

Tuesday 30th June 2015
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The Supercar Kids article said:
....five prototypes of P1 from the scratch
Careless of McLaren to have scratched them, or are they just for people with an itch to own a P1?

R_U_LOCAL

2,676 posts

207 months

Tuesday 30th June 2015
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Sway said:
But of course it doesn't have a showy weave...
What? Are you sure? I know it's a matter of personal opinion, but I've placed a special order for one of the last P1s - a P1 XP Fibreglass Green no less.

The guys at the factory have been keeping me up to date with regular updates of the build - here's the latest pic:



It's costing me somewhere in the region of £2.47 for the exposed fibreglass finish because of the difficulty in matching the weave, and because "Dave the Brush" keeps going off sick with headaches and dizzy spells.

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Tuesday 30th June 2015
quotequote all
R_U_LOCAL said:
Sway said:
But of course it doesn't have a showy weave...
What? Are you sure? I know it's a matter of personal opinion, but I've placed a special order for one of the last P1s - a P1 XP Fibreglass Green no less.

The guys at the factory have been keeping me up to date with regular updates of the build - here's the latest pic:



It's costing me somewhere in the region of £2.47 for the exposed fibreglass finish because of the difficulty in matching the weave, and because "Dave the Brush" keeps going off sick with headaches and dizzy spells.
It is time that Dave manned up and put in a proper day's work.

One just cannot get good staff anymore.


mikey k

13,011 posts

215 months

Wednesday 1st July 2015
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hehe is he moonlighting with a bog brush?

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Friday 3rd July 2015
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On another thread it has been pointed out that my next post would be #20,000 for me. This will be that post.

Thank you to the PH community for the many hours of challenging (sometimes), enlightening (often) and enjoyable (always) discussion.

It is not possible to guarantee that I'll get to 40,000, but I am an optimist. smile

Happy motoring, everyone. driving



SydneyBridge

8,500 posts

157 months

Friday 3rd July 2015
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congratulations.... PH should give you a carriage clock or the PH equivalent

in case you had not done the maths, that is an average of around 153 posts a month in nearly 11 years

to change the subject, when do you get your 675LT? what colour will it be?

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Friday 3rd July 2015
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SydneyBridge said:
congratulations.... PH should give you a carriage clock or the PH equivalent

in case you had not done the maths, that is an average of around 153 posts a month in nearly 11 years

to change the subject, when do you get your 675LT? what colour will it be?
In my case, a cuckoo clock would probably be more appropriate.

Wrt delivery, they tell me September. It will be the same colour as my F1/P1.

Soov535

35,829 posts

270 months

Friday 3rd July 2015
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flemke said:
On another thread it has been pointed out that my next post would be #20,000 for me. This will be that post.

Thank you to the PH community for the many hours of challenging (sometimes), enlightening (often) and enjoyable (always) discussion.

It is not possible to guarantee that I'll get to 40,000, but I am an optimist. smile

Happy motoring, everyone. driving


thumbup

pthelazyjourno

1,848 posts

168 months

Saturday 4th July 2015
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Sway said:
No reason why GRP monocoques haven't taken off - they can do everything a CF monocoque can, just at a slightly higher weight (for a given strength/stiffness, assuming the shape remains the same).

In fact, there's a lot going for GRP - the new Bloodhound troop carrier is a GRP body designed to withstand significant sized IEDs - you can design in the strength, stiffness and durability you want.

Material costs are a lot less, however as per CF, labour is expensive.

But of course it doesn't have a showy weave, or the cachet of 'straight from F1'.

Let's be fair - my car is over 100kgs lighter than a similar engined Elise, with a far roomier and comfier interior, a solid roof, decent parcel shelf and boot, full sized spare wheel (plus big brakes and heavy wheels). Yes, the Elise is better in terms of handling and ride - but the Elise would have been significantly better had it had a GRP tub instead of aluminium glued extrusions...
K-series Elises were anywhere between 700-760kg for most S1s, so doubt your car is over 100kg lighter (unless you're running a 2ZZ Toyota - they were a good chunk heavier). Mine was circa 730kg.

Just for clarification, and not wishing to be a pedant - as you say, it's amazing how much stuff they managed to squeeze in considering the weight.

Edit: Although just saw that was with you in it too, obviously not sure how much you weigh!!

pthelazyjourno

1,848 posts

168 months

Saturday 4th July 2015
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Sway said:
No reason why GRP monocoques haven't taken off - they can do everything a CF monocoque can, just at a slightly higher weight (for a given strength/stiffness, assuming the shape remains the same).

In fact, there's a lot going for GRP - the new Bloodhound troop carrier is a GRP body designed to withstand significant sized IEDs - you can design in the strength, stiffness and durability you want.

Material costs are a lot less, however as per CF, labour is expensive.

But of course it doesn't have a showy weave, or the cachet of 'straight from F1'.

Let's be fair - my car is over 100kgs lighter than a similar engined Elise, with a far roomier and comfier interior, a solid roof, decent parcel shelf and boot, full sized spare wheel (plus big brakes and heavy wheels). Yes, the Elise is better in terms of handling and ride - but the Elise would have been significantly better had it had a GRP tub instead of aluminium glued extrusions...
K-series Elises were anywhere between 700-760kg for most S1s, so doubt your car is over 100kg lighter (unless you're running a 2ZZ Toyota - they were a good chunk heavier). Mine was circa 730kg.

Just for clarification, and not wishing to be a pedant - as you say, it's amazing how much stuff they managed to squeeze in considering the weight.

Edit: Although just saw that was with you in it too, obviously not sure how much you weigh!!

Edited by pthelazyjourno on Saturday 4th July 02:23

wst

3,494 posts

160 months

Saturday 4th July 2015
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Sway said:
Twill is weaker than unidirectional carbon fibre because of the 'undulating' nature of the fibres, plus the fibre when in resin has effectively the same strength characteristics as a piece of dried spaghetti - really strong along it's axis (can stab yourself very easily), but poor across that axis (snaps when bent). Twill has it's benefits I believe due to the high level of interlocking between fibres, and the fact it's stiff in two directions (for biax, three for triax). It also drapes better than uni, so tight curves can be achieved more easily, with less opportunity for strength sapping voids.

On top of that, a large part of the strength of a composite part comes from it's shape - those wishbones will potentially have a degree of flex vertically, but none front to back.

So it's certainly not a purely cosmetic creation!

What I would note, is that when a really light, 'generally' stiff and strong platten type shape is desired, the large 'box' twill is king (and accordingly expensive) - see Red Bull's rear floor section. AIUI, that gives perhaps the best compromise between all aspects.

For the absolute 'best' composite structures (in theory, and some practice), pure uni would be used, where the layup specifically designs in the relative strengths/stiffnesses/masses through laying the fibres in the exact directions and proportions needed. I know some bicycle frames have gone down this route (Trek's OCLV was I think the first to use the principles) - giving massive lateral stiffness through the bottom bracket/chainstays, whilst giving an element of vertical vibration damping and compliance at the seatstays. Lots and lots of computer crunching to get the design (both in shape and layout) necessary, plus a consideration for production.

That's why all composites (whether CF/glass/bamboo/whatever fibre) can be so good - strength/stiffness/durability where you want it, and none where you don't.

Apologies if teaching grandma to suck eggs - I am by no means an expert, although I have interests in many fields that have benefited from composite tech (even my car has a composite (fibreglass) chassis), and have friends who are very, very good!
Giving me flashbacks to the time I tried composites lamination as a career path (I am cack handed - I have decided to go and do a degree in engineering to tell other people how to do it instead). Nothing you said contradicts anything I learned in my time doing that (~4 months). It was quite a good job though for someone interested in motorsports, I saw the Mercedes turbo heatshield before the car was even tested and if I'd had half a brain I'd have realised that it only had space for the turbine and not the compressor (and also how darn huge the turbine is!)... alas, NDA. Whenever Force India, Mercedes or RBR representatives came to the factory we had to cover the moulds and parts the other teams were using.

cc8s

4,209 posts

202 months

Wednesday 22nd July 2015
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flemke said:
Buckle,

There is some (trivial) truth here and some BS.

I think the clue is in the pretentious and moronic name: "Blacklist Lifestyles". rolleyes

A factory option was to have your car in unpainted (but clear lacquered) carbon fibre, same as Pagani, K'egg, etc. That is the true part. I'm not sure what that option cost, but I'll try to remember to ask today when I'm seeing some of the factory guys.

As for "only 5', that is misleading. If enough customers had wanted them, all 375 cars would have been in bare CF.
That is correct. Clear carbonfibre shells were offered. I know of three customers who have chosen to purchase them but they are supplied as secondary 'shells' and only to be provided after production ends (any time in the last or next month).

flemke said:
The "XP" is ridiculous - all someone has done has been to take the label "XP", as in "Experimental Prototype", which McL use for all their development cars (in the case of the P1, I think there were about 10) and tack it onto this Facebook promo. Unlike in the case of the F1, where one of the 5 XPs was sold to a customer, I am sure that none of the P1 XPs was ever acquired by a customer. If it was, then this car is a factory reject!
For clarity on the P1 XPs:

There are pre-production chassis numbers up to 22. I know of 19 of them, some of which I do not have any pictures of, unfortunately. The highest XP (Experimental Prototype) I know is XP12, the highest VP (Validation Prototype) I know is VP5, the highest PP (Pre-Production Prototype) I know is PP3. Those numbers of course don't add up and I suspect there may be another few XPs and VPs.

I am led to believe that a number of the prototypes have been crushed and have confirmation of a few of these.

Now a handful of the prototypes are to be refurbished and resold to customers (confirmed by a few sources) but I do not believe the blurb from Blacklist and various other sites.


flemke said:
As for the "Red" bit, the interior options shown in red are merely factory standard options which were offered in any colour FOC.

I suspect that what has happened is simply that somebody ordered a car in bare CF, got "standard option" red highlights to the interior, got a few dabs of red paint on places like the front splitter, and now is trying to flog the thing. That is fair enough - this is an object to be bought and sold - but at the same time this advert misrepresents reality.
There are very few totally unique options and cool wee touches brought in have often been copied in later cars. One of my favourite subtle details is the foil 'McLaren' badge on the front of around 5 cars which is over the paint but under the lacquer. Another notable rare option is the gloss carbonfibre interior with allegedly five cars featuring this (I know of 4, for sure).

There are a few cars with the painted splitter option: the Chrome car currently in the UK has orange on the splitter, a black US car has red, a white US car has red, etc.


flemke said:
It may be that only 5 customers ended up ordering P1s in the bare CF, and therefore it could be said that this car is "1 of 5". This is completely different from, say, the F1 LMs, which from conception were going to be limited to a build run of 5 customer examples. (The factory told customers who asked if they could have their cars painted in the same blue as mine that the colour was proprietary to me [in that I brought it to the factory]. Would one then say that my car is "1 of only 1"? Strictly speaking true, but completely meaningless.)
I suspect you are right. The number that was floating about for full carbon cars was either 8 or 20. This leads on to the term 'MSO P1' which is often used and means almost nothing: around 75-80% of P1s that have/will leave the factory will have been worked on by MSO. There are very few cars in the world that I would point to and speculate have nothing by MSO.

flemke said:
My guess is that the bare CF option was IRO £150k. As there appear to be no other special options on this car, that would have made the total price IRO £1.1m. Take out the VAT and we're below £900k, or $1.5m. If typical sales tax in US is IRO 8%, you've got a total price to client of something like $1.7m.

All someone is doing here is trying to take a massive turn on a car that looks less nice than many of the painted ones do. There might be someone willing to pay that price, in light of the silly prices paid for various and sundry uncommon cars lately, but this car is def not some special addition or extraordinary example that sneaked under everybody's radar.
Good points.


flemke said:
ETA: The above was written earlier today, without my having got any specific information directly from McLaren. Now that I have got the information, although I cannot get into details, I can say that the above is a pretty fair synopsis of the situation.

Edited by flemke on Saturday 27th June 19:58
I am all ears for anything further you would be allowed to share!

cc8s

4,209 posts

202 months

Thursday 23rd July 2015
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I'll believe it when I see it.

McLaren has a habit of charging the first customer the development cost for new, expensive options. Therefore someone would have had to pay what I imagine is an eye-watering amount to pay for conversion and probably any tests associated with that.

The usual pattern has then been to sell this on to others at a more 'affordable' level.

I would suggest that, if there were a RHD car made, it would have to be kept so tightly under wraps that the owner could never use it, just about, to prevent serious annoyance from other owners.

Even in Singapore, where apparently they cannot drive their cars as they are LHD, there are 7 P1s, all in LHD.

I am only missing around 30-35 cars altogether and not one features RHD. I guess it does only take one though...

Again, I will believe it when I see it.

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Saturday 25th July 2015
quotequote all
cc8s said:
There are very few totally unique options and cool wee touches brought in have often been copied in later cars. One of my favourite subtle details is the foil 'McLaren' badge on the front of around 5 cars which is over the paint but under the lacquer.
Ah, but only one car has the enamel "McLaren" badge inset into the bonnet. wink

anniesdad

14,589 posts

237 months

Sunday 26th July 2015
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Flemke, what do you think of this McLaren F1 concept car? What is it they say "if it looks right..." I think this is stunning. Hope you're well and looking forward to getting the 675LT, by all accounts it looks and sounds fantastic!

http://hypebeast.com/2015/6/formula-one-cars-reima...

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
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anniesdad said:




Flemke, what do you think of this McLaren F1 concept car? What is it they say "if it looks right..." I think this is stunning. Hope you're well and looking forward to getting the 675LT, by all accounts it looks and sounds fantastic!

http://hypebeast.com/2015/6/formula-one-cars-reima...
I agree, it looks great.

I don't think, however, that that needle-nose tea tray would last very long going across the kerbs on a typical race circuit. And if the car lifted and then came down atop another car, the point of the tea tray could impale the other driver. eek

cc8s

4,209 posts

202 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
quotequote all
flemke said:
Ah, but only one car has the enamel "McLaren" badge inset into the bonnet. wink
Yours?

Wacky Racer

38,099 posts

246 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
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cc8s said:
flemke said:
Ah, but only one car has the enamel "McLaren" badge inset into the bonnet. wink
Yours?
What do you think?..biggrin