Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

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Animal

5,246 posts

267 months

Tuesday 25th August 2015
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Davey S2 said:
Not sure I agree with the 'all' cars part there.

With the very few iconic cars that were build in tiny numbers (250 GTO, F1 etc) I would have thought mileage is less important.

Nick Masons 250 GTO must be one of the most used examples but I can't see that have any effect on value if it ever came up for sale.

With so few cars in existence you can't afford to be too picky or you would never get to own one.
I don't think that one doesn't use it's original engine. I'm sure I read somewhere that Ten Tenths keep the original engine crated up and the car has a replica installed.

Ali2202

3,815 posts

203 months

Tuesday 25th August 2015
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Animal said:
Davey S2 said:
Not sure I agree with the 'all' cars part there.

With the very few iconic cars that were build in tiny numbers (250 GTO, F1 etc) I would have thought mileage is less important.

Nick Masons 250 GTO must be one of the most used examples but I can't see that have any effect on value if it ever came up for sale.

With so few cars in existence you can't afford to be too picky or you would never get to own one.
I don't think that one doesn't use it's original engine. I'm sure I read somewhere that Ten Tenths keep the original engine crated up and the car has a replica installed.
Mason says that they swap the original engine out when the car is being used for track work and back in when that season is over. The V12 'substitute' is of a similiar vintage and spec. to the original. How the other half live!.....

flemke

22,863 posts

236 months

Tuesday 25th August 2015
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Davey S2 said:
flemke said:
One is conscious that the greater the overall mileage, the less a car is worth, and that applies to all cars.
Not sure I agree with the 'all' cars part there.

With the very few iconic cars that were build in tiny numbers (250 GTO, F1 etc) I would have thought mileage is less important.

Nick Masons 250 GTO must be one of the most used examples but I can't see that have any effect on value if it ever came up for sale.

With so few cars in existence you can't afford to be too picky or you would never get to own one.
I don't disagree with anything you say, except that mileage will always affect the market value of a car.

If someone today came up with a "time capsule" 250 GTO, authenticated by the factory, I have no doubt that there would be buyers who would pay more for it than they would do for a high-mileage GTO with no provenance. Provenance usually adds to value, of course, but then we would not be talking with other things being equal.

A car that has been driven properly for a reasonable (don't ask me what that is!) number of miles would be a better machine than a time capsule example. On the other hand, a car with loads of miles on it would be tired: with use, metal wears away, metal fatigues, some metals get brittle.

The ideal car will have had "Baby Bear" mileage/usage. Notwithstanding that, there are big-money collectors for whom the lower the mileage, the better.

I'm not saying that Mason's 250 GTO is not worth a great deal, because of course it is. I am saying that, if it had 50% fewer miles on it, its market value would be greater still.

Storer

5,024 posts

214 months

Tuesday 25th August 2015
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When talking about racing cars there is a factor that affects price more than mileage.
If the car suffered a major crash, especially if the driver was unfortunately killed, this has a considerable effect on value.

A GTO is a good example of this as one that came up for auction (fully restored)in the US 'only' achieved about 60% of a previous example with an accident free record.

Although the cars being discussed here are artistic masterpieces they were built to be driven (and raced) and life will be the poorer if they end up as static exhibits. Paintings were only ever pieces of art (and possibly a pictorial record too).

Cars were animate objects before we considered them as art, but as static exhibits you only get to see 25% of their "value" in my opinion. Being used and seen at events is the real 100% experience.


Paul

Petrus1983

8,518 posts

161 months

Wednesday 26th August 2015
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I'm quite sure this has been asked and answered before but sadly due to having a life I can't read through 5 volumes -

Have you ever driven the car with just one passenger? Does the weight make enough of a difference to feel it through steering, or is the suspension sufficiently hard enough to mask any difference?

flemke

22,863 posts

236 months

Thursday 27th August 2015
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Petrus1983 said:
I'm quite sure this has been asked and answered before but sadly due to having a life I can't read through 5 volumes -

Have you ever driven the car with just one passenger? Does the weight make enough of a difference to feel it through steering, or is the suspension sufficiently hard enough to mask any difference?
You def notice difference with one passenger versus none, and with two versus one. You notice it not so much with the steering, but more with body roll and also under braking.

flemke

22,863 posts

236 months

Thursday 27th August 2015
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Storer said:
When talking about racing cars there is a factor that affects price more than mileage.
If the car suffered a major crash, especially if the driver was unfortunately killed, this has a considerable effect on value.

A GTO is a good example of this as one that came up for auction (fully restored)in the US 'only' achieved about 60% of a previous example with an accident free record.

Although the cars being discussed here are artistic masterpieces they were built to be driven (and raced) and life will be the poorer if they end up as static exhibits. Paintings were only ever pieces of art (and possibly a pictorial record too).

Cars were animate objects before we considered them as art, but as static exhibits you only get to see 25% of their "value" in my opinion. Being used and seen at events is the real 100% experience.


Paul
You make a good point. A crashed car, even one that needed a lot of repair work, will trade at a discount, but not much of a discount, as we recently saw with Rowan Atkinson's car.

A car in which someone has died, however, is another story. I suspect that if someone died in a car even if the car had never been crashed - supposed the car was stationary and the driver had a heart attack, or someone took his own life with carbon monoxide poisoning - many people will not want to go near it.

chriskay

13 posts

151 months

Thursday 27th August 2015
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flemke said:
A car in which someone has died, however, is another story. I suspect that if someone died in a car even if the car had never been crashed - supposed the car was stationary and the driver had a heart attack, or someone took his own life with carbon monoxide poisoning - many people will not want to go near it.
Conversely, there may be certain ghoulish people for whom it may be an added selling point.confused
Incidentally, for anyone considering suicide by using exhaust fumes, they should be aware that since the introduction of catalytic converters, there's very little carbon monoxide in the exhaust.

flemke

22,863 posts

236 months

Friday 28th August 2015
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chriskay said:
flemke said:
A car in which someone has died, however, is another story. I suspect that if someone died in a car even if the car had never been crashed - supposed the car was stationary and the driver had a heart attack, or someone took his own life with carbon monoxide poisoning - many people will not want to go near it.
Conversely, there may be certain ghoulish people for whom it may be an added selling point.confused
Incidentally, for anyone considering suicide by using exhaust fumes, they should be aware that since the introduction of catalytic converters, there's very little carbon monoxide in the exhaust.
There probably are such people, Chris, although I suspect that they are rare. eek

Monty Python

4,812 posts

196 months

Friday 28th August 2015
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chriskay said:
Conversely, there may be certain ghoulish people for whom it may be an added selling point.confused
Incidentally, for anyone considering suicide by using exhaust fumes, they should be aware that since the introduction of catalytic converters, there's very little carbon monoxide in the exhaust.
I think the carbon dioxide and other gasses will more than make up for it's absence.

Edited by Monty Python on Friday 28th August 10:43

jamiem555

750 posts

210 months

Friday 28th August 2015
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I suppose an exception would be the Lindner Nocker lightweight E-Type.

flemke

22,863 posts

236 months

Friday 28th August 2015
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jamiem555 said:
I suppose an exception would be the Lindner Nocker lightweight E-Type.
Do you think that car would be worth more than it would have been with the same provenance but without a fatality?

It is an interesting question. There have been so many racing fatalities. Amongst the great drivers who perished at the wheel, I wonder if someone would pay more for the fatal cars of Jim Clark, Alberto Ascari, Jochen Rindt, Ronnie Peterson, Mark Donohue, et al. On the one hand, those cars have a kind of historical importance, and certainly are unique. On the other hand, if you had one before you, would you ever want to drive it? I think the historical importance would be diminished if such a car were restored to its pre-crash state, but inherently it seems something of a sacrilege, or at least disrespectful, to drive them today.

greygoose

8,224 posts

194 months

Friday 28th August 2015
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It seems to be a bit macabre to me, but then I am constantly amazed at the price people will pay for things that once belonged to a celebrity.

Storer

5,024 posts

214 months

Friday 28th August 2015
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There are very few 'celebrities' I would consider worthy of 'adding value' to a car.

Race wins are another thing altogether. The more the merrier, and the higher the race status the better too.

I have no desire to own a rebuilt car that the driver was killed in, and thankfully, many other think the same.



Paul

flemke

22,863 posts

236 months

Saturday 29th August 2015
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Storer said:
There are very few 'celebrities' I would consider worthy of 'adding value' to a car.

Race wins are another thing altogether. The more the merrier, and the higher the race status the better too.

I have no desire to own a rebuilt car that the driver was killed in, and thankfully, many other think the same.



Paul
Years ago I was buying a car for someone else. The dealer enthusiastically told me, "You know, the previous owner of this car was Madonna!"

I said, "As far as I am concerned, that devalues it. Have you got another one with a different previous owner?"

Petrus1983

8,518 posts

161 months

Saturday 29th August 2015
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flemke said:
Years ago I was buying a car for someone else. The dealer enthusiastically told me, "You know, the previous owner of this car was Madonna!"

I said, "As far as I am concerned, that devalues it. Have you got another one with a different previous owner?"
This intrigues me - I can't imagine either you nor a friend of yours buying the type of car that Madona had owned - was it a Prius (or Maybach)?

Btw - many thanks for answering my previous question, makes perfect sense.

flemke

22,863 posts

236 months

Sunday 30th August 2015
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Petrus1983 said:
flemke said:
Years ago I was buying a car for someone else. The dealer enthusiastically told me, "You know, the previous owner of this car was Madonna!"

I said, "As far as I am concerned, that devalues it. Have you got another one with a different previous owner?"
This intrigues me - I can't imagine either you nor a friend of yours buying the type of car that Madona had owned - was it a Prius (or Maybach)?

Btw - many thanks for answering my previous question, makes perfect sense.
It was a Range Rover (as I said, for someone else!).

Rob_R

2,428 posts

244 months

Saturday 5th September 2015
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flemke said:
Years ago I was buying a car for someone else. The dealer enthusiastically told me, "You know, the previous owner of this car was Madonna!"

I said, "As far as I am concerned, that devalues it. Have you got another one with a different previous owner?"
What's the matter F, not fond of her singing voice? wink

Shotgun Rider

816 posts

169 months

Saturday 5th September 2015
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flemke said:
It was a Range Rover (as I said, for someone else!).
At least it wasn't Gillian Taylforth's Range Rover.

turbobloke

103,742 posts

259 months

Saturday 5th September 2015
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Shotgun Rider said:
flemke said:
It was a Range Rover (as I said, for someone else!).
At least it wasn't Gillian Taylforth's Range Rover.
Not forgetting Jordan's pink'un.