Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

Author
Discussion

Crockefeller

327 posts

155 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
quotequote all
flemke said:
Szulc said:
Hi Flemke, Long time lurker finally coming out for a play here...

I know you have a Light Car Company Rocket and it has been one of my favorite cars to read about and such. A while back I heard someone wrote a book about the car, But alas I cannot find the name of it. I emailed the poster-who I presume to be the author, Clive Neville, back in march and here is what he had to say.

"The book is 30x30cm hard back about 250 pages. Full color and a mix of story and technical aspects of the LCC Rocket. It will be limited edition but not sure how limited at this point-probably 100-500 copies. The first 100 will e signed and would cost more. We are currently working out costs to purchasers based on what it is going to cost us for the print run, as it's being self published, there is no publisher to pick up the tab... "


Have you heard of any activity regarding this book and whether it is legit? Finding anything on the Rocket is hard, I was looking for a brochure to purchase and look at it and couldn't even find one!
AFAIK, the project is real. Chris Craft first told me about Clive several years ago. Since then I have had correspondence with Clive on a number of occasions. At about the same time that you got the e-mail to which you refer, I got a similar e-mail from him. In reply I indicated to Clive what my interest would be and since then I have been hoping to hear further news.
Not connected to the book but relating to the Rocket, a few years back I spent a lot of time working on a design for some Rocket key fobs. I did part of the design, with an important design contribution by Rick Ward, who designed the fabulous Rocket logo and also has a couple of Beatles album covers on his CV, amongst many other things.
After much correspondence with one of the top enamel badge fabricators in the UK, all I needed to commission the work was for them to find some turquoise leather (with certain qualities required for a good key fob). They could not do so; I began to look for it myself. Then my personal life changed rather drastically and since then I have not had the time to get the key fob project restarted. I am however hopeful that the book will be forthcoming.

Rick's logo design:

Just to add that I messaged Clive back in September to see how the book was going and he said it was "getting there, looking good, but may not be ready for xmas".

I'm looking forward to receiving a copy of the book....... and an enamel key fob if Flemke is ever in a position to resurrect the project smile

Dr JonboyG

2,561 posts

238 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
quotequote all
flemke said:
The problem with these cars (LaF and 918 also) is that their hybrid battery packs are so big and so specialised that you have to pay a king's ransom to replace one if it has gone past the point of recharging.
I presume that the same applies to, for example, a Prius or a Tesla, although for them the economies of scale and lack of stranglehold on wealthy buyers make the price expensive rather than outrageous.
The batteries on a Volt or Tesla (or i3 or i8 for that matter) are designed so that they never drop below ~30%, in order that they can last the 100,000 miles or 8 years that the car's powertrain is warrantied for. You'd have thought Porsche/McLaren/Ferrari would do the same but who knows.

isaldiri

18,411 posts

167 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
quotequote all
Dr JonboyG said:
The batteries on a Volt or Tesla (or i3 or i8 for that matter) are designed so that they never drop below ~30%, in order that they can last the 100,000 miles or 8 years that the car's powertrain is warrantied for. You'd have thought Porsche/McLaren/Ferrari would do the same but who knows.
The 918's batteries are warranted for 7-8 years I am pretty sure. The P1 only for the manufacturer warranty ie 3 years and i assume the same for the laferrari.

Adrian E

3,248 posts

175 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
quotequote all
It should be possible to refurbish battery packs if they get to the point where a few duff cells start to cause battery performance issues. That is the ethos behind the Tesla Powerwall, giving slightly below par cells a second life in a less power hungry application where peak performance isn't required, without having to replace the cells that are working perfectly well.

There's a great deal of knowledge available from the company that manufacture the power units on behalf of McLaren, who may well know a thing or two about the battery pack and its architecture wink

andyps

7,817 posts

281 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
quotequote all
flemke said:
I used to own a vintage prototype racing car of the same genre but a bit later ('72). After restoration it was a lovely thing, but I just didn't have sufficient interest to get into the historic racing scene.
I think the car you had (if I remember the discussions on here correctly) is advertised for sale in Octane magazine this month, haven't got the copy to hand to know who was selling it but will look later.

Joe911

2,763 posts

234 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
quotequote all
isaldiri said:
The 918's batteries are warranted for 7-8 years I am pretty sure. The P1 only for the manufacturer warranty ie 3 years and i assume the same for the laferrari.
I would bet that if either a Mac for Fez customer tried to claim on the warranty for battery issues they would have to fight very very hard for satisfaction. I would wager something non-trivial that they would squirm out of it.

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
quotequote all
Crockefeller said:
Just to add that I messaged Clive back in September to see how the book was going and he said it was "getting there, looking good, but may not be ready for xmas".

I'm looking forward to receiving a copy of the book....... and an enamel key fob if Flemke is ever in a position to resurrect the project smile
It would be my pleasure.
I have embarked on many little projects in my time. The problem always is that I want personal-scale quantities (depending on situation, between 1 and 200), whereas the companies that make things usually produce to a larger if not much larger scale. Regardless of the price-per-piece, the smaller order always get bumped to the back of the queue and it seems to take forever to get something done.

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
quotequote all
Dr JonboyG said:
flemke said:
The problem with these cars (LaF and 918 also) is that their hybrid battery packs are so big and so specialised that you have to pay a king's ransom to replace one if it has gone past the point of recharging.
I presume that the same applies to, for example, a Prius or a Tesla, although for them the economies of scale and lack of stranglehold on wealthy buyers make the price expensive rather than outrageous.
The batteries on a Volt or Tesla (or i3 or i8 for that matter) are designed so that they never drop below ~30%, in order that they can last the 100,000 miles or 8 years that the car's powertrain is warrantied for. You'd have thought Porsche/McLaren/Ferrari would do the same but who knows.
The P1 and LaF (not sure about Porsche) definitely do not have a 30% or any other floor. How do GM or Tesla manage that? There cannot be an infinitely-long-life battery.

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
quotequote all
Joe911 said:
isaldiri said:
The 918's batteries are warranted for 7-8 years I am pretty sure. The P1 only for the manufacturer warranty ie 3 years and i assume the same for the laferrari.
I would bet that if either a Mac for Fez customer tried to claim on the warranty for battery issues they would have to fight very very hard for satisfaction. I would wager something non-trivial that they would squirm out of it.
For most owners the concern is that, if you allow the big battery pack to drop to zero, it cannot be resurrected. In fairness to the car makers, they do give you guidance on charge maintenance and explain the consequences of ignoring that guidance, so one couldn't really complain if the battery failure were the result of owner neglect.

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
quotequote all
andyps said:
flemke said:
I used to own a vintage prototype racing car of the same genre but a bit later ('72). After restoration it was a lovely thing, but I just didn't have sufficient interest to get into the historic racing scene.
I think the car you had (if I remember the discussions on here correctly) is advertised for sale in Octane magazine this month, haven't got the copy to hand to know who was selling it but will look later.
Aye, that's the one.
I sold it in perfect condition - the guys who refurbed it for me did a beautiful job - and with an entry for Le Mans Classic either '10 or '12, which was coming about 3 months after the sale.
The new owner or owners drove it once at some vintage event without any problems, then I believe their second event was the Classic, at which I was told they had a major shunt in it. No idea what condition it is in now, although if the condition were as good as it was when I sold it I would be impressed.

andyps

7,817 posts

281 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
quotequote all
flemke said:
Aye, that's the one.
I sold it in perfect condition - the guys who refurbed it for me did a beautiful job - and with an entry for Le Mans Classic either '10 or '12, which was coming about 3 months after the sale.
The new owner or owners drove it once at some vintage event without any problems, then I believe their second event was the Classic, at which I was told they had a major shunt in it. No idea what condition it is in now, although if the condition were as good as it was when I sold it I would be impressed.
I was at the Classic when it was entered, saw it in the paddock on the Friday and it did look great but I don't think I actually saw it on the track. I have a photo of it somewhere pre-shunt.

hurstg01

2,909 posts

242 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
quotequote all
flemke said:
AFAIK, the project is real. Chris Craft first told me about Clive several years ago. Since then I have had correspondence with Clive on a number of occasions. At about the same time that you got the e-mail to which you refer, I got a similar e-mail from him. In reply I indicated to Clive what my interest would be and since then I have been hoping to hear further news.
Not connected to the book but relating to the Rocket, a few years back I spent a lot of time working on a design for some Rocket key fobs. I did part of the design, with an important design contribution by Rick Ward, who designed the fabulous Rocket logo and also has a couple of Beatles album covers on his CV, amongst many other things.
After much correspondence with one of the top enamel badge fabricators in the UK, all I needed to commission the work was for them to find some turquoise leather (with certain qualities required for a good key fob). They could not do so; I began to look for it myself. Then my personal life changed rather drastically and since then I have not had the time to get the key fob project restarted. I am however hopeful that the book will be forthcoming.

Rick's logo design:

I have one of them, and another with green areas where there are light blue ones in your picture; will pop some pictures up later when I'm on my home PC

Dr JonboyG

2,561 posts

238 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
quotequote all
flemke said:
The P1 and LaF (not sure about Porsche) definitely do not have a 30% or any other floor. How do GM or Tesla manage that? There cannot be an infinitely-long-life battery.
The battery management software handles it; the 0% you see in the car on the indicated battery charge is calibrated and the battery isn't actually completely depleted. It's the sort of thing they'd mention in the tech briefing to journalists but probably not in handover to new owners.

hurstg01

2,909 posts

242 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
quotequote all
hurstg01 said:
flemke said:
AFAIK, the project is real. Chris Craft first told me about Clive several years ago. Since then I have had correspondence with Clive on a number of occasions. At about the same time that you got the e-mail to which you refer, I got a similar e-mail from him. In reply I indicated to Clive what my interest would be and since then I have been hoping to hear further news.
Not connected to the book but relating to the Rocket, a few years back I spent a lot of time working on a design for some Rocket key fobs. I did part of the design, with an important design contribution by Rick Ward, who designed the fabulous Rocket logo and also has a couple of Beatles album covers on his CV, amongst many other things.
After much correspondence with one of the top enamel badge fabricators in the UK, all I needed to commission the work was for them to find some turquoise leather (with certain qualities required for a good key fob). They could not do so; I began to look for it myself. Then my personal life changed rather drastically and since then I have not had the time to get the key fob project restarted. I am however hopeful that the book will be forthcoming.

Rick's logo design:

I have one of them, and another with green areas where there are light blue ones in your picture; will pop some pictures up later when I'm on my home PC


DeuxCentCinq

14,180 posts

181 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
quotequote all
flemke said:
The problem with these cars (LaF and 918 also) is that their hybrid battery packs are so big and so specialised that you have to pay a king's ransom to replace one if it has gone past the point of recharging.
I presume that the same applies to, for example, a Prius or a Tesla, although for them the economies of scale and lack of stranglehold on wealthy buyers make the price expensive rather than outrageous.
At last, something I can contribute to The Thread!

I bought a second hand, low mileage, FSH etc. Honda Insight Gen 2 last year. As I planned to keep it as a family car for a good long while, I wrote to Honda asking about battery packs and charging and whatnot. While it is a hybrid that doesn't plug in, the battery charging system is designed to never fall below the level at which it would be impossible to recover from. When the car was first released, this led in some cases (such as accelerating up a hill, or overtaking etc.) to the power balance going from full "assist" into almost full "charge" mode, taking power from the engine instead of giving it, leading the car to effectively lose nearly 50% of its peak power instantly.
This was rectified with an ECU update which changed the logic, so now if it runs out of battery power for the "assist", it slowly drops the electronic boost down to zero, then only begins to recharge when you back off the throttle.

If I'm reading the letter correctly, this problem could affect all Honda Gen 2 hybrids made until 2013. The ECU update is free to do at a main dealer.


As for running out of charge to start the car - I can confirm that if you leave the lights on, the 12v battery under the bonnet does indeed still run all the systems that need to be booted up for the car to start. As it uses the hybrid battery to start the engine (as well as from Start/Stop events at traffic lights etc.) you only need enough power to turn on the car, so a quick charge with a booster pack is all that's necessary. Running the 12v battery down doesn't affect the charge in the hybrid battery at all.

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
quotequote all
Dr JonboyG said:
flemke said:
The P1 and LaF (not sure about Porsche) definitely do not have a 30% or any other floor. How do GM or Tesla manage that? There cannot be an infinitely-long-life battery.
The battery management software handles it; the 0% you see in the car on the indicated battery charge is calibrated and the battery isn't actually completely depleted. It's the sort of thing they'd mention in the tech briefing to journalists but probably not in handover to new owners.
I know even less about these things than I know about everything else, which is not much.

Obviously there is no such thing as a battery that will never run out of energy. Can I take it that the difference is that the batteries of which you speak can be recharged from flat? The problem with the P1's and LaF's battery packs, I was told by the factory, is that they cannot be recharged from totally flat and therefore, once completely flat, must be replaced as a whole.

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
quotequote all
hurstg01 said:
hurstg01 said:
flemke said:
AFAIK, the project is real. Chris Craft first told me about Clive several years ago. Since then I have had correspondence with Clive on a number of occasions. At about the same time that you got the e-mail to which you refer, I got a similar e-mail from him. In reply I indicated to Clive what my interest would be and since then I have been hoping to hear further news.
Not connected to the book but relating to the Rocket, a few years back I spent a lot of time working on a design for some Rocket key fobs. I did part of the design, with an important design contribution by Rick Ward, who designed the fabulous Rocket logo and also has a couple of Beatles album covers on his CV, amongst many other things.
After much correspondence with one of the top enamel badge fabricators in the UK, all I needed to commission the work was for them to find some turquoise leather (with certain qualities required for a good key fob). They could not do so; I began to look for it myself. Then my personal life changed rather drastically and since then I have not had the time to get the key fob project restarted. I am however hopeful that the book will be forthcoming.

Rick's logo design:

I have one of them, and another with green areas where there are light blue ones in your picture; will pop some pictures up later when I'm on my home PC
Interesting. Thank you, sir.
Somehow I don't think the green one was for an intended electric version of the Rocket - wouldn't fare too well in the lightness stakes!

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
quotequote all
DeuxCentCinq said:
At last, something I can contribute to The Thread!

I bought a second hand, low mileage, FSH etc. Honda Insight Gen 2 last year. As I planned to keep it as a family car for a good long while, I wrote to Honda asking about battery packs and charging and whatnot. While it is a hybrid that doesn't plug in, the battery charging system is designed to never fall below the level at which it would be impossible to recover from. When the car was first released, this led in some cases (such as accelerating up a hill, or overtaking etc.) to the power balance going from full "assist" into almost full "charge" mode, taking power from the engine instead of giving it, leading the car to effectively lose nearly 50% of its peak power instantly.
This was rectified with an ECU update which changed the logic, so now if it runs out of battery power for the "assist", it slowly drops the electronic boost down to zero, then only begins to recharge when you back off the throttle.

If I'm reading the letter correctly, this problem could affect all Honda Gen 2 hybrids made until 2013. The ECU update is free to do at a main dealer.


As for running out of charge to start the car - I can confirm that if you leave the lights on, the 12v battery under the bonnet does indeed still run all the systems that need to be booted up for the car to start. As it uses the hybrid battery to start the engine (as well as from Start/Stop events at traffic lights etc.) you only need enough power to turn on the car, so a quick charge with a booster pack is all that's necessary. Running the 12v battery down doesn't affect the charge in the hybrid battery at all.
Thank you for that.

I think the issue with the P1's battery is not that it would continue to supply "torque fill" even when it is at the lower threshold of normal storage but rather that, once it's gone completely flat, it cannot be recharged.

Storer

5,024 posts

214 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
quotequote all
These hybrid cars will cause a few headaches in 50 years time to those that find them in a barn, having sat for 20 years untouched!!! Evaporated old petrol will be the least of their worries...

Paul

BigBen

11,610 posts

229 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
quotequote all
flemke said:
Dr JonboyG said:
flemke said:
The P1 and LaF (not sure about Porsche) definitely do not have a 30% or any other floor. How do GM or Tesla manage that? There cannot be an infinitely-long-life battery.
The battery management software handles it; the 0% you see in the car on the indicated battery charge is calibrated and the battery isn't actually completely depleted. It's the sort of thing they'd mention in the tech briefing to journalists but probably not in handover to new owners.
I know even less about these things than I know about everything else, which is not much.

Obviously there is no such thing as a battery that will never run out of energy. Can I take it that the difference is that the batteries of which you speak can be recharged from flat? The problem with the P1's and LaF's battery packs, I was told by the factory, is that they cannot be recharged from totally flat and therefore, once completely flat, must be replaced as a whole.
They are the same batteries. What is being said is that in mainstream applications the driver is told that the battery is 'flat' when it in fact has circa 30% charge remaining, this is to extend the life of the cells.

Ben