Is the diesel backlash about to start?
Discussion
I'm currently in a petrol versus diesel debate with myself. Currently running my M5 at around 17k to 20k miles a year if I keep using it to go to work, which I won't be as the roads in Sheffield are s
t, but I need a car to get me there and back, and I cannot decide whst sub £1k car and engine type would suit my needs better. I'd prefer petrol, but I think a diesel may be the best choice, though I am set to be proved wrong, so bring it on!
t, but I need a car to get me there and back, and I cannot decide whst sub £1k car and engine type would suit my needs better. I'd prefer petrol, but I think a diesel may be the best choice, though I am set to be proved wrong, so bring it on!Monkeylegend said:
If you read through my previous posts you will find the answer to your questions, but if you want more............
The real reason is something I am reluctant to admit on an open forum,
but here goes, I have a fetish for the smell of diesel, there I have outed myself.
Are you a lorry driver?The real reason is something I am reluctant to admit on an open forum,
but here goes, I have a fetish for the smell of diesel, there I have outed myself.
Monkeylegend said:
If you read through my previous posts you will find the answer to your questions, but if you want more............
The real reason is something I am reluctant to admit on an open forum,
but here goes, I have a fetish for the smell of diesel, there I have outed myself.
Are you a lorry driver?The real reason is something I am reluctant to admit on an open forum,
but here goes, I have a fetish for the smell of diesel, there I have outed myself.
The way I see this diesel v. petrol thing is that from the outset, those we entrust to this Nation's well being clearly gave Diesels a very unfair advantage over petrols based on a false premise.
For a few years now I have been posting that if the majority of UK car users move to Diesels to take advantage of low/zero VED and reduced tax revenues due to higher mileages for your gallon of Diesel then there will be an increasing revenue shortfall.
That revenue shortfall will have to be made up by ... additional taxes.
The way diesel cars, vans and people carriers are emission tested come MoT time can be a real eye opener ( or closer if you are not a good distance away ) for anyone who has not seen the process.
On several occasions in recent years I have arrived about ten or fifteen minutes ahead of my appointed while you wait MoT test time. I watch the car ahead of me being tested. It's a VAG diesel. The tester revs the engine for up to a minute often more and the resulting black thug of soot fills the industrial unit completely. I cannot see the car now because of the voluminous quantity of black stuff filling the unit. Cannot see anything apart from the black stuff. Takes quite a while to clear. Seen this now on three occasions so it's not simply a one off. How the hell can those vehicles be an emissions pass ? They are though.
I have no objection to paying taxes on my petrol cars. What I have always objected to is being unfairly penalised for them based on that false Diesel premise. I hope these future changes redress that unfair imbalance.
Bet they dont though. That is a certainty!
By the way, the last car I drove today was a friend's nearly new diesel. He works for a Citroen dealership and the car was his demonstrator ~ all twenty five grands worth. He handed me the keys and invited me to take a drive. I did. At first, I had not realised it was a diesel until he confirmed it was when I asked. It did not sound, smell or behave the way I expect diesels to do. It was a 2 litre turbo. The very competent car had so many gismos they could be a distraction from the main purpose of vehicles, to get about safely. The most impressive thing about that car was ... not the seats which massage your back but, wait for it ... the design and ergonomics of the sun visors. Brilliant.
EDIT to add @ 01:49
However, I will be pleased to get into my Petrol Turbo MG ZT or Rover 620ti tomorrow. That despite being their being ten and fifteen years old respectively. For this dinosaur transport enthusiast, they are still a better driving experience. Finally, the new Citroen driving friend has Rovers and MGs. His work colleagues extract the urine as a result. They will never understand...
For a few years now I have been posting that if the majority of UK car users move to Diesels to take advantage of low/zero VED and reduced tax revenues due to higher mileages for your gallon of Diesel then there will be an increasing revenue shortfall.
That revenue shortfall will have to be made up by ... additional taxes.
The way diesel cars, vans and people carriers are emission tested come MoT time can be a real eye opener ( or closer if you are not a good distance away ) for anyone who has not seen the process.
On several occasions in recent years I have arrived about ten or fifteen minutes ahead of my appointed while you wait MoT test time. I watch the car ahead of me being tested. It's a VAG diesel. The tester revs the engine for up to a minute often more and the resulting black thug of soot fills the industrial unit completely. I cannot see the car now because of the voluminous quantity of black stuff filling the unit. Cannot see anything apart from the black stuff. Takes quite a while to clear. Seen this now on three occasions so it's not simply a one off. How the hell can those vehicles be an emissions pass ? They are though.
I have no objection to paying taxes on my petrol cars. What I have always objected to is being unfairly penalised for them based on that false Diesel premise. I hope these future changes redress that unfair imbalance.
Bet they dont though. That is a certainty!
By the way, the last car I drove today was a friend's nearly new diesel. He works for a Citroen dealership and the car was his demonstrator ~ all twenty five grands worth. He handed me the keys and invited me to take a drive. I did. At first, I had not realised it was a diesel until he confirmed it was when I asked. It did not sound, smell or behave the way I expect diesels to do. It was a 2 litre turbo. The very competent car had so many gismos they could be a distraction from the main purpose of vehicles, to get about safely. The most impressive thing about that car was ... not the seats which massage your back but, wait for it ... the design and ergonomics of the sun visors. Brilliant.
EDIT to add @ 01:49
However, I will be pleased to get into my Petrol Turbo MG ZT or Rover 620ti tomorrow. That despite being their being ten and fifteen years old respectively. For this dinosaur transport enthusiast, they are still a better driving experience. Finally, the new Citroen driving friend has Rovers and MGs. His work colleagues extract the urine as a result. They will never understand...
Edited by MGJohn on Sunday 17th August 01:49
rallycross said:
Monkeylegend said:
If you read through my previous posts you will find the answer to your questions, but if you want more............
The real reason is something I am reluctant to admit on an open forum,
but here goes, I have a fetish for the smell of diesel, there I have outed myself.
Are you a lorry driver?The real reason is something I am reluctant to admit on an open forum,
but here goes, I have a fetish for the smell of diesel, there I have outed myself.
rallycross said:
Monkeylegend said:
If you read through my previous posts you will find the answer to your questions, but if you want more............
The real reason is something I am reluctant to admit on an open forum,
but here goes, I have a fetish for the smell of diesel, there I have outed myself.
Are you a lorry driver?The real reason is something I am reluctant to admit on an open forum,
but here goes, I have a fetish for the smell of diesel, there I have outed myself.
heebeegeetee said:
These weekly threads are *never* started by people justifying diesel though. They're *always* started by someone who wants to attack someone's car choice, for some reason.
The running costs haven't been bullst for most of the past 30 years, either.
I was the one who started the thread, and not as a Petrol vs Diesel debate. Nor at any point did I try to justify my car choice nor did I criticise somebody elses choice. What I did ask was whether it was worth hopping from a diesel car now to petrol before the backlash starts and the arse falls out the secondhand values of the things (which I am now convinced is a bit of a myth anyway.....)The running costs haven't been bulls
t for most of the past 30 years, either.For the record - I like my 170 diesel. It's not laggy, it's effortless to make it move quickly and sounds OK except from cold when it sounds like bones in a box. However it's just not much fun to rev, and I really enjoy being able to rev a petrol engine when the notion takes me. Given the equivalent is ALSO 170bhp and forced induction it purely had me wondering......
TheAngryDog said:
I'm currently in a petrol versus diesel debate with myself. Currently running my M5 at around 17k to 20k miles a year if I keep using it to go to work, which I won't be as the roads in Sheffield are st, but I need a car to get me there and back, and I cannot decide whst sub £1k car and engine type would suit my needs better. I'd prefer petrol, but I think a diesel may be the best choice, though I am set to be proved wrong, so bring it on!
At sub £1000 unless you are very very lucky you're going to be buying a time bomb if you buy a diesel. Likely to be a big bill waiting to happen.t, but I need a car to get me there and back, and I cannot decide whst sub £1k car and engine type would suit my needs better. I'd prefer petrol, but I think a diesel may be the best choice, though I am set to be proved wrong, so bring it on!You will buy a much younger, fresher petrol variant.
MGJohn said:
Stuff
Totally agree - though dont forget that increasing economy of petrol cars and the move to smaller engines has knocked tax revenue too.And for a long time you "could" get an easy increase in economy with opting for a diesel. Its only recently that the gap has narrowed significantly.
I think electric hybrids (think i3 not Prius tech) will over time take over the sales of diesel, which, at the point of almost tipping the balance will be helped along by a government tax break that make them look like better value for company car drivers in the short term. This will flood the market over a 5 year period, then the hike of diesel tax will come and petrol/electric will be the majority sales. Transition completes.
Paul O said:
I think electric hybrids (think i3 not Prius tech) will over time take over the sales of diesel, which, at the point of almost tipping the balance will be helped along by a government tax break that make them look like better value for company car drivers in the short term. This will flood the market over a 5 year period, then the hike of diesel tax will come and petrol/electric will be the majority sales. Transition completes.
Yeah, as i said in my first post on this thread, those who really need economy will move to petrol hybrids if there is a move to increase taxes significantly on diesels. That has started already - a lot of taxi drivers now run prius's.I will definitely consider one next time around.
Those who are borderline and below who shouldnt really be driving diesels anyway will move back to what are now higher efficiency petrol cars.
Diesels will remain dominant only in large saloons and large 4x4s.
MGJohn said:
The way I see this diesel v. petrol thing is that from the outset, those we entrust to this Nation's well being clearly gave Diesels a very unfair advantage over petrols based on a false premise.
For a few years now I have been posting that if the majority of UK car users move to Diesels to take advantage of low/zero VED and reduced tax revenues due to higher mileages for your gallon of Diesel then there will be an increasing revenue shortfall.
I'm not aware of any specific diesel tax benefits. VED rates don't take the fuel type into account do they?For a few years now I have been posting that if the majority of UK car users move to Diesels to take advantage of low/zero VED and reduced tax revenues due to higher mileages for your gallon of Diesel then there will be an increasing revenue shortfall.
Edited by herewego on Sunday 17th August 15:44
herewego]GJohn said:
The way I see this diesel v. petrol thing is that from the outset, those we entrust to this Nation's well being clearly gave Diesels a very unfair advantage over petrols based on a false premise.
For a few years now I have been posting that if the majority of UK car users move to Diesels to take advantage of low/zero VED and reduced tax revenues due to higher mileages for your gallon of Diesel then there will be an increasing revenue shortfall.
[quote]
I'm not aware of any specific diesel tax benefits. VED rates don't take the fuel type into account do they?
It goes on emissions, which are lower in diesels so cheaper tax plus betterFor a few years now I have been posting that if the majority of UK car users move to Diesels to take advantage of low/zero VED and reduced tax revenues due to higher mileages for your gallon of Diesel then there will be an increasing revenue shortfall.
[quote]
I'm not aware of any specific diesel tax benefits. VED rates don't take the fuel type into account do they?
Mpg. However that balance is being redressed with the lower powered petrol/turbo jobbies
Paul O said:
herewego]GJohn said:
The way I see this diesel v. petrol thing is that from the outset, those we entrust to this Nation's well being clearly gave Diesels a very unfair advantage over petrols based on a false premise.
For a few years now I have been posting that if the majority of UK car users move to Diesels to take advantage of low/zero VED and reduced tax revenues due to higher mileages for your gallon of Diesel then there will be an increasing revenue shortfall.
[quote]
I'm not aware of any specific diesel tax benefits. VED rates don't take the fuel type into account do they?
It goes on emissions, which are lower in diesels so cheaper tax plus betterFor a few years now I have been posting that if the majority of UK car users move to Diesels to take advantage of low/zero VED and reduced tax revenues due to higher mileages for your gallon of Diesel then there will be an increasing revenue shortfall.
[quote]
I'm not aware of any specific diesel tax benefits. VED rates don't take the fuel type into account do they?
Mpg. However that balance is being redressed with the lower powered petrol/turbo jobbies
Monkeylegend said:
I PREFER DIESEL TO PETROL
That's fine, but don't pretend the reasons why you prefer them are anything other than economics (unless you actually get some kind of perverse enjoyment from a diesel starting up). Apart from fuel economy, good petrol engines do everything better.Mr2Mike said:
Monkeylegend said:
I PREFER DIESEL TO PETROL
That's fine, but don't pretend the reasons why you prefer them are anything other than economics (unless you actually get some kind of perverse enjoyment from a diesel starting up). Apart from fuel economy, good petrol engines do everything better.I have already said I am addicted to the smell of diesel.
The neverending petrol vs. diesel.
I remember when I came back to Europe in the mid 00's, having trailed a new S-Klasse for about 50 km at fairly high autobahn speeds, we both got off at the same exit and at the first stoplight I pulled beside him on his right side and lowered my window. I heard the subdued deep diesel rattle (it sounded like a large engine); I had forgotten how refined diesel technology had gotten in Europe, and even though my prejudice told me that a large luxo sedan is no place for such an agrarian powerplant, it somehow sounded right for the purpose. It looked and sounded like a proper autobahn ship, a fast efficient cruiser. Soon after a friend gave me his 535d for a spin and it just blew me away. For long, high speed motorway cruises the large diesel engine is the right tool for the job. Sure a large petrolV8 is great, but having to continually stop for gas is just annoying.
In the city or small commutes a 4-pot diesel is also annoying.
I am looking for a Merc R-Klasse, and the choice boild down to R 350 cdi vs. R500. The vehicle will be used for long distance family cruises. All things considered the 350cdi motor is the better tool for the job.
I remember when I came back to Europe in the mid 00's, having trailed a new S-Klasse for about 50 km at fairly high autobahn speeds, we both got off at the same exit and at the first stoplight I pulled beside him on his right side and lowered my window. I heard the subdued deep diesel rattle (it sounded like a large engine); I had forgotten how refined diesel technology had gotten in Europe, and even though my prejudice told me that a large luxo sedan is no place for such an agrarian powerplant, it somehow sounded right for the purpose. It looked and sounded like a proper autobahn ship, a fast efficient cruiser. Soon after a friend gave me his 535d for a spin and it just blew me away. For long, high speed motorway cruises the large diesel engine is the right tool for the job. Sure a large petrolV8 is great, but having to continually stop for gas is just annoying.
In the city or small commutes a 4-pot diesel is also annoying.
I am looking for a Merc R-Klasse, and the choice boild down to R 350 cdi vs. R500. The vehicle will be used for long distance family cruises. All things considered the 350cdi motor is the better tool for the job.
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