World of Tanks (Vol 2)
Discussion
cirian75 said:
I've not had a monster game in my 704 in quite a while now, and the arty seems to have gotten much worse, as in even more OP.
Funny you mention the 704, I just bought mine back last night after a year or so (selling it to get the 268 was such a mistake). Stars aligned in the second game (Malinovka, tier 9, no arty) and I managed 7k damage and 4 kills, which was enough for TD-15 on the T55a missions. It was really hard work though, much harder to keep concealed than before and really had to work terrain, double bushing etc. Still a beast of a tank that.jimmyjimjim said:
cirian75 said:
I've not had a monster game in my 704 in quite a while now, and the arty seems to have gotten much worse, as in even more OP.
Arty has got more inaccurate if anything, with damage about the same. More people playing it for missions, though.Zero skill = zero enjoyment.
Wargaming are looking at reviewing artillery and they're going to email thousands of players for their opinions. They're not going to remove them, sadly. Pity, because in my opinion they ruin just about every game they're in. Some maps like Cliff and Malinovka are essentially unplayable with 2-3 high tier arty a side.
Thankfully swamp is getting changed in either the next patch or the one after (I forget which) - it really is a horribly stale set up at the moment, so many draws on it. Personally I find Prohkorovka / Fiery Salient the worst with multiple arties - I like to try and be assertive on that map, but there is precious little place to find SPG cover once spotted.
I will be interesting to see what WG ask in their survey & whether it hints at how they are thinking about Arty, or if it's just a 'is it ok at the moment' thing which will not add much at all.
I will be interesting to see what WG ask in their survey & whether it hints at how they are thinking about Arty, or if it's just a 'is it ok at the moment' thing which will not add much at all.
They have their place (dislodging obstinate Heavies and such that can simply pin down whole areas) but there was never any need for the original nerf. All it needed was to limit the number per team to 1/2, so that they couldn't dominate maps.
At the end of the day, if you're spotted and continue to sit in the open, in the knowledge that the other team has arty....you don't really have anyone else to blame.
At the end of the day, if you're spotted and continue to sit in the open, in the knowledge that the other team has arty....you don't really have anyone else to blame.
TEKNOPUG said:
They have their place (dislodging obstinate Heavies and such that can simply pin down whole areas) but there was never any need for the original nerf. All it needed was to limit the number per team to 1/2, so that they couldn't dominate maps.
At the end of the day, if you're spotted and continue to sit in the open, in the knowledge that the other team has arty....you don't really have anyone else to blame.
I agree. I've played the boxtenk a lot as I like it but it's huge, slow and has zero armour so it's an arty magnet. I've never really found arty to be the problem like a lot of people make it out to be. Once you're spotted just start moving unpredictably or get arty safe - it's not hard. I think the people that like to moan are generally the HT players who spit their collective dummies out because they have to move from their hull down impenetrable position to avoid arty fire.At the end of the day, if you're spotted and continue to sit in the open, in the knowledge that the other team has arty....you don't really have anyone else to blame.
The problem isn't avoiding arty - that's actually not hard as you say:
a) don't get spotted;
b) get spotted but be somewhere in hard cover (assuming there is some); or
c) Don't stop moving unpredictably
It's the outcome that those options have on the game when everyone is having to do it because there are multiple arties - if no one is pushing because they are all playing a) or b) then you end up in long tedious games. Not every tank is suitable for c) to work, and at high tiers (where the problem is really only felt) the splash radius is so big sometimes that even a near miss at 50km/h can hurt big time and blow tracks off.
I do think the best answer, as Teknopug points out, would be simply to first try a hardcap of 2 arties, at least for a month or two, and see how it goes.
a) don't get spotted;
b) get spotted but be somewhere in hard cover (assuming there is some); or
c) Don't stop moving unpredictably
It's the outcome that those options have on the game when everyone is having to do it because there are multiple arties - if no one is pushing because they are all playing a) or b) then you end up in long tedious games. Not every tank is suitable for c) to work, and at high tiers (where the problem is really only felt) the splash radius is so big sometimes that even a near miss at 50km/h can hurt big time and blow tracks off.
I do think the best answer, as Teknopug points out, would be simply to first try a hardcap of 2 arties, at least for a month or two, and see how it goes.
I play arty a decent amount, as a result I rarely have trouble with enemy arty when I'm playing other classes, I know where they'll be looking, I know when they'll shoot, I can generally juke and dodge them pretty easily. When I'm in my CGC, I won't waste a shot on anyone I don't think I've got a reasonably sure chance of hitting. If you're spotted and you're not moving, you'll be getting a 2200 average damage parcel delivered by air mail, you're gonna get #rekt. In my lef105, with a shot every 8 seconds, I'll shoot anything and everything in front of me, the salty tears of the dead fueling my engine, sustaining my crew and helping them put another round on target.
The original arty nerf was massively overdone.
It really needed two things - first, a hard limit of 2 per side - because as soon as you get 3, the game play changes dramatically. Especially, as said, at higher tiers where two arties covering a flank will result in insta-death on spotting.
Second, dramatically reducing the amount of average damage done per shot - not removing the chance for the occasional one shot kill, but reducing the guarantee that you'd be hitting for 800-1000 damage, i.e. 1/3 to 1/2 a tank every time. Again, to reduce the chance of insta-death from multiple arty hits and resultant stagnation of the game.
Instead, we got the latter, plus a massive accuracy nerf, shell speed nerf, huge increase in the time for the reticle to settle, increase in load times, etc. All of which make arty almost entirely a factor of rng (and incidentally showcases quite how bad the rng and pre-determined wins and losses are). This led to a decline in arty numbers so that both points were met.
What really is needed now is the hard cap on numbers, and to limit average shot damage to ~1/5 of a heavies hp - much in line with the damage from their guns(I was playing the M44 in a T8 game last night, repeatedly hitting for 2-300 a shot on T8 heavies that were stupid enough to stay in one place - this is what arty should be for, not derping someone who pissed off the rng gods).
Then increase the accuracy back to where it was pre-nerf.
By all means keep the increased flight time and aim time, as these will help to make arty more of a skill based role, instead of the rng fest it is currently.
All of this would allow it to perform the role it should be doing - support, winkling out a hull down heavy or heavily armored td from whatever position it is dominating.
Just my 2p.
It really needed two things - first, a hard limit of 2 per side - because as soon as you get 3, the game play changes dramatically. Especially, as said, at higher tiers where two arties covering a flank will result in insta-death on spotting.
Second, dramatically reducing the amount of average damage done per shot - not removing the chance for the occasional one shot kill, but reducing the guarantee that you'd be hitting for 800-1000 damage, i.e. 1/3 to 1/2 a tank every time. Again, to reduce the chance of insta-death from multiple arty hits and resultant stagnation of the game.
Instead, we got the latter, plus a massive accuracy nerf, shell speed nerf, huge increase in the time for the reticle to settle, increase in load times, etc. All of which make arty almost entirely a factor of rng (and incidentally showcases quite how bad the rng and pre-determined wins and losses are). This led to a decline in arty numbers so that both points were met.
What really is needed now is the hard cap on numbers, and to limit average shot damage to ~1/5 of a heavies hp - much in line with the damage from their guns(I was playing the M44 in a T8 game last night, repeatedly hitting for 2-300 a shot on T8 heavies that were stupid enough to stay in one place - this is what arty should be for, not derping someone who pissed off the rng gods).
Then increase the accuracy back to where it was pre-nerf.
By all means keep the increased flight time and aim time, as these will help to make arty more of a skill based role, instead of the rng fest it is currently.
All of this would allow it to perform the role it should be doing - support, winkling out a hull down heavy or heavily armored td from whatever position it is dominating.
Just my 2p.
I've never found it that hard to shoot a moving heavy tank with arty, especially if they're busy trying to engage other tanks. The biggest problem is RNG, not their movement. It's only light tanks or mediums that are fairly immune to arty, due to their speed.
I'm no angel, I've done my share of tank stomping with SPGs, but I find it amazing that regular arty players have managed to convince themselves that they discourage camping and that it's the other player's "fault" when they dump on them for all their health from across the map with no warning.
It certainly attracts a certain mindset I think. I platooned with someone once who was shrieking with hysterical laughter over team-speak every time he flattened someone with his US SPG. He's my image of the typical artillery player now.
In Armoured Warfare, they don't have ridiculous doom cannons like the CGC. In fact artillery inflicts no more damage that the equivalent tank of their tier would. They fire faster (some are auto-loaders) though as a result, so they're probably more engaging to play.
Tanks also get a warning when arty is aiming at them (there's a similar captain's skill in World of Warships that kinda does this). Knowing that they're not going to be wrecked or obliterated if they move from cover, it won't turn games into massive camp fests like the arty friendly maps in WoT do.
When you fire your artillery, it flashes up your grid square on the map for enemy arty to see and you become visible for 10 seconds. If you're tempted to not start "moving unpredictably" after this, you're likely to be face accurate counter-battery. So as a result, you do what real life SPGs do: shoot and scoot.
Altogether, it's probably more fun to play and certainly less piss boiling for other players who are trying to effect the battle by - you know - playing tanks.
I'm no angel, I've done my share of tank stomping with SPGs, but I find it amazing that regular arty players have managed to convince themselves that they discourage camping and that it's the other player's "fault" when they dump on them for all their health from across the map with no warning.
It certainly attracts a certain mindset I think. I platooned with someone once who was shrieking with hysterical laughter over team-speak every time he flattened someone with his US SPG. He's my image of the typical artillery player now.
In Armoured Warfare, they don't have ridiculous doom cannons like the CGC. In fact artillery inflicts no more damage that the equivalent tank of their tier would. They fire faster (some are auto-loaders) though as a result, so they're probably more engaging to play.
Tanks also get a warning when arty is aiming at them (there's a similar captain's skill in World of Warships that kinda does this). Knowing that they're not going to be wrecked or obliterated if they move from cover, it won't turn games into massive camp fests like the arty friendly maps in WoT do.
When you fire your artillery, it flashes up your grid square on the map for enemy arty to see and you become visible for 10 seconds. If you're tempted to not start "moving unpredictably" after this, you're likely to be face accurate counter-battery. So as a result, you do what real life SPGs do: shoot and scoot.
Altogether, it's probably more fun to play and certainly less piss boiling for other players who are trying to effect the battle by - you know - playing tanks.
Beati Dogu said:
It certainly attracts a certain mindset I think. I platooned with someone once who was shrieking with hysterical laughter over team-speak every time he flattened someone with his US SPG. He's my image of the typical artillery player now.
Arty is still only a minor part of my play compared to traditional tanks and TDs, but my reaction when I wreck something, particularly a one-shot from full health, is akin to Circonflex at 06:55. When you one-shot an invisible waffle who is pulled in hard against cover, it's hard not to laugh out loud. No shrieking though bros, no one wants their ear drums blown out.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_qfVjqsU2Q
Well I had a first last night. Someone was crying in a game at me 'camping in a heavy' when I should be pushing the front. Reality was our whole team bar 3 had lemminged off up the hill on Malinovka (and eventually won it but stalled on the top), leaving the few of us near the base to repel the 5 enemies that tried to take it. We won in the end, and about 15 minutes later I got a message from him in game apologising - he'd watched the replay and realised we had saved the game for them, and was sorry for moaning.
That's never, ever happened before. Lots of moaning yes, but no one actually bothering to think about it and be decent enough to apologise. Restored my faith a little bit that did.
That's never, ever happened before. Lots of moaning yes, but no one actually bothering to think about it and be decent enough to apologise. Restored my faith a little bit that did.
jimmyjimjim said:
The original arty nerf was massively overdone.
It really needed two things - first, a hard limit of 2 per side - because as soon as you get 3, the game play changes dramatically. Especially, as said, at higher tiers where two arties covering a flank will result in insta-death on spotting.
Second, dramatically reducing the amount of average damage done per shot - not removing the chance for the occasional one shot kill, but reducing the guarantee that you'd be hitting for 800-1000 damage, i.e. 1/3 to 1/2 a tank every time. Again, to reduce the chance of insta-death from multiple arty hits and resultant stagnation of the game.
Instead, we got the latter, plus a massive accuracy nerf, shell speed nerf, huge increase in the time for the reticle to settle, increase in load times, etc. All of which make arty almost entirely a factor of rng (and incidentally showcases quite how bad the rng and pre-determined wins and losses are). This led to a decline in arty numbers so that both points were met.
What really is needed now is the hard cap on numbers, and to limit average shot damage to ~1/5 of a heavies hp - much in line with the damage from their guns(I was playing the M44 in a T8 game last night, repeatedly hitting for 2-300 a shot on T8 heavies that were stupid enough to stay in one place - this is what arty should be for, not derping someone who pissed off the rng gods).
Then increase the accuracy back to where it was pre-nerf.
By all means keep the increased flight time and aim time, as these will help to make arty more of a skill based role, instead of the rng fest it is currently.
All of this would allow it to perform the role it should be doing - support, winkling out a hull down heavy or heavily armored td from whatever position it is dominating.
Just my 2p.
If you are going to reduce the damage, then you need to increase loading and aiming time. Otherwise you end up with a very low DPM and it makes it pointless to play them. They should have the same potential DPM as their equivalent Tier Heavies (given the calibre of their guns). They probably do now but only because the massive damage is curbed by the long aiming and reload times.It really needed two things - first, a hard limit of 2 per side - because as soon as you get 3, the game play changes dramatically. Especially, as said, at higher tiers where two arties covering a flank will result in insta-death on spotting.
Second, dramatically reducing the amount of average damage done per shot - not removing the chance for the occasional one shot kill, but reducing the guarantee that you'd be hitting for 800-1000 damage, i.e. 1/3 to 1/2 a tank every time. Again, to reduce the chance of insta-death from multiple arty hits and resultant stagnation of the game.
Instead, we got the latter, plus a massive accuracy nerf, shell speed nerf, huge increase in the time for the reticle to settle, increase in load times, etc. All of which make arty almost entirely a factor of rng (and incidentally showcases quite how bad the rng and pre-determined wins and losses are). This led to a decline in arty numbers so that both points were met.
What really is needed now is the hard cap on numbers, and to limit average shot damage to ~1/5 of a heavies hp - much in line with the damage from their guns(I was playing the M44 in a T8 game last night, repeatedly hitting for 2-300 a shot on T8 heavies that were stupid enough to stay in one place - this is what arty should be for, not derping someone who pissed off the rng gods).
Then increase the accuracy back to where it was pre-nerf.
By all means keep the increased flight time and aim time, as these will help to make arty more of a skill based role, instead of the rng fest it is currently.
All of this would allow it to perform the role it should be doing - support, winkling out a hull down heavy or heavily armored td from whatever position it is dominating.
Just my 2p.
Best SPG I have played in the game was the little Russian SU-26, pre nerf. Mainly because it had a turret, so didn't keep having to re-aim. Didn't do stupid damage, probably 1/4 of a Heavy but had fast reload. Usually ran out of shells in a game.
Playing SPG now, I don't feel that I have any real influence on the game, given how few shots I can fire actually aimed properly during a typical match.
Yep, arty is a pain in the rear to play. RNG dependant and dependant on the spotting and scouting abilities of your team. Scout drivers that suicide don't get that it takes nearly a minute to load and half a minute to aim the damn things and if you have to re-position...
I have had games in the M53/55 where I have one shotted tier 7 and tier 8 heavies (Tiger I and IS-8) and others where I simply cannot land a shell no matter how long the reticle has been zero'd in, sometimes doing 10 damage on burst
. I'd gladly accept a reduction in damage output for being less at the mercy of the RNG - especially given the cost of the shells.
I have had games in the M53/55 where I have one shotted tier 7 and tier 8 heavies (Tiger I and IS-8) and others where I simply cannot land a shell no matter how long the reticle has been zero'd in, sometimes doing 10 damage on burst
. I'd gladly accept a reduction in damage output for being less at the mercy of the RNG - especially given the cost of the shells.TEKNOPUG said:
Best SPG I have played in the game was the little Russian SU-26, pre nerf. Mainly because it had a turret, so didn't keep having to re-aim. Didn't do stupid damage, probably 1/4 of a Heavy but had fast reload. Usually ran out of shells in a game.
That thing was bloody deadly though & and it's still my most played SPG - 259 games, 469 kills, 8 Top Guns, 17 Confederates and even 2 Fadin's Medals for nailing the last enemy tank with my last round.First they nerfed the ammo capacity & then the gun elevation, so it could no longer defend itself. I sold it at that point. After that they removed the gun it once had. It's now a pea shooter & a shadow if its former self.
German police recently found several WW2 weapons and vehicles at the home of a 78 year old man.
These include a torpedo, an 88mm flak gun a Panther tank.
They had to call the German Army in to haul away the Panther, which is missing its tracks.
http://www.stern.de/panorama/gesellschaft/heikendo...
He's being investigated for possibly breaching German weapons laws and dealing in stolen Nazi-era art. It seems the locals knew he had the tank as he used it to get around & help clear the roads during heavy snow back in the late 1970s.
These include a torpedo, an 88mm flak gun a Panther tank.
They had to call the German Army in to haul away the Panther, which is missing its tracks.
http://www.stern.de/panorama/gesellschaft/heikendo...
He's being investigated for possibly breaching German weapons laws and dealing in stolen Nazi-era art. It seems the locals knew he had the tank as he used it to get around & help clear the roads during heavy snow back in the late 1970s.
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