Max Verstappen to Race for Toro Rosso
Discussion
Joeguard1990 said:
Petrus1983 said:
Playing Devils Advocate - could it be that the new 'computer generation' are finding it easier?
Your spot on here. Play forza 5 on Xbox with a proper wheel and pedal set up and in no time you'll be learning the correct racing line, car characteristics, etc.It's also been proven, search for Gran Turismo Academy
Virtual driving helps you understand tracks, does teach racecraft to an extent and can help with understanding car physics and setup. It is *not* the same as a real car - you feel just through the wheel in a sim, maybe be through the seat too (mine does!), you can invest in motion, but motion in sims can't sustain longer G forces even in F1-grade machines. In real cars/karts you feel through your whole body, and that you need to learn in the real world. It has helped my real driving, but nothing to shout about.
Gran Turismo academy works because you take away the lottery of whether you have or have not got the right financial backing and right team behind you, and because they are selecting from a huge pool of people who spend 10s of hours per week, and then flush out to those who obviously have the exceptional hand/eye motor gifts that you get from birth, which in fairness many semi-pros or pros probably don't have. I don't have those gifts, but I can still pedal a kart quicker than 99.something of the general population - that came from many hours of practice.... the rest of it is just a "gift", and GT Academy finds those who have it, plus the focus you need to be successful at virtual racing. The top guys in iRacing do 40 hours + per week of relentless lapping -many of them more. GT Academy the same.
Then when they find these individuals - Nismo put them through a very intense *actual car* driving programme, and the winners in some cases are going on to build professional careers, in other cases they drift away.
GT Academy and virtual racing will become another route into motorsport - but it does not make motorsport any easier. The racing line is easy to learn for anyone, feeling when a tyre is about to breach it's slip angle take actual seat time and always will!
Edited by cidered77 on Tuesday 19th August 18:06
speedysoprano said:
Vaud said:
One view - he's much too young, can't possibly be ready, etc
Another view - highly experienced people with access to a lot of data have taken brave but calculated risk on a very young driver.
This is pretty much what I was trying to express, but you did it much better. Another view - highly experienced people with access to a lot of data have taken brave but calculated risk on a very young driver.
+1
Only RBR are in a position to do that via their feeder team, so may have been forced to do that in order to lock him in, before even they think he's ready.
I believe 100% he's that good - far from convinced even his new employers believe this isn't a major risk they're taking...
I tend to take the view that if he's good enough he's old enough.
However it does some what tarnish the view that F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport if a 16 year can compete.
Seems a high risk strategy too. He's going to have to be pretty good, pretty quickly with the entire F1 world and media looking at him. There will be no where to hide whilst he learns his craft and make mistakes. Say he starts like Grosjean and gets a reputation as the crash kid - going to be hard to shake it. Worst case with Red Bulls policy of basically two year trials his F1 career could be over before the previous youngest had begun!!
Still I'm constantly impressed by the high calibre work experience people I mentor at work each year so no reason why Max won't be different and excel.
However it does some what tarnish the view that F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport if a 16 year can compete.
Seems a high risk strategy too. He's going to have to be pretty good, pretty quickly with the entire F1 world and media looking at him. There will be no where to hide whilst he learns his craft and make mistakes. Say he starts like Grosjean and gets a reputation as the crash kid - going to be hard to shake it. Worst case with Red Bulls policy of basically two year trials his F1 career could be over before the previous youngest had begun!!
Still I'm constantly impressed by the high calibre work experience people I mentor at work each year so no reason why Max won't be different and excel.
NAS said:
I really wonder what the reactions would be if the kid was British. 
It wouldn't change my view at all, to me it is an indictment of F1 as the self proclaimed pinnacle of motor sport that this relates to - as I said before I don't see how it can be the pinnacle if a 17 year old can take part in something that does have quite a few rungs beneath it.bishbash said:
Does seem strange that apart from Vettel and Riccardio no other TR drivers have found another seat anywhere ever in F1. Is there something in their contracts that says it's on to Red Bull or bust out of the sport?
The F1 contracts arbitration board would probably see that as not enforceable.It's probably more that it you land an RB supported drive, with all the support you get and don't make it then what could we offer you as a team? I like the TR programme and loathe it in equal measure. We want teams to take risks with drivers (SV, DR, DK, MV) but we equally dislike it for the possibly equally brilliant drivers it doesn't recognise.
bishbash said:
Does seem strange that apart from Vettel and Riccardio no other TR drivers have found another seat anywhere ever in F1. Is there something in their contracts that says it's on to Red Bull or bust out of the sport?
It's a harsh world.If the World Champion team mentors a driver for years (Buemi, Speed, Klien,Alguesari,Vergne) and decides they're not good enough to replace a Webber or Vettel then unfortunately that driver isn't going to be top of the shopping list for Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes or any other team striving to be the best. BBS-LM said:
Someone by that man a beer, arrrr, maybe not. 
No problem over here, you can buy him a beer but he will have to wait until he is 18 for anything stronger.My son is 17 and will be 18 in October, last night he was organising his driving test so he can pick up his car as soon as possible when he turns 18.
andyps said:
NAS said:
I really wonder what the reactions would be if the kid was British.
It wouldn't change my view at all, to me it is an indictment of F1 as the self proclaimed pinnacle of motor sport that this relates to - as I said before I don't see how it can be the pinnacle if a 17 year old can take part in something that does have quite a few rungs beneath it.If it is a sport, why should it be any different to any other sport all of which have "lower rungs"? Golf is probably the only major sport in which there hasn't been a teenage world champion.
Edited by Dagnut on Wednesday 20th August 10:04
Dagnut said:
If it is a sport, why should it be any different to any other sport all of which have "lower rungs"? Golf is probably the only major sport in which there hasn't been a teenage world champion.
Actually that's a very fair point. Boris Becker won Wimbledon at Max's age, Pele went to the World Cup at 17, Jennifer Capriatti was something like 15 or 16 when rank 10th I recall. The more you make me think about it tennis is littered with high performing teenagers! Tracey Austin and Martina Hingis were both top ranked when early/mid-teens.Having been forced to watch Tumble there is also of course Nadia Comenaci - she won a bag full of Olympic gold medals at 14 and first person to receive a perfect 10.
Oh and golf isn't a sport....
Quite Driving an F1 car isn't something you need a 7 year degree in. I'm sure I've read that the age for peak performance in swimmers is about 20 and not much more than 30 for chess.
Assuming F1 is nearer swimming than chess, there's presumably only one way to get an experienced F1 driver in their early twenties and that's to start with an inexperienced one in their teens. Good luck to him I say, it seems more credible to me to let a young man have a go than a relatively old woman.
ETA: Seeing as pilots always come up in F1 threads, you can join the RAF from 17 which presumably means they think they're ready to train.
Assuming F1 is nearer swimming than chess, there's presumably only one way to get an experienced F1 driver in their early twenties and that's to start with an inexperienced one in their teens. Good luck to him I say, it seems more credible to me to let a young man have a go than a relatively old woman.
ETA: Seeing as pilots always come up in F1 threads, you can join the RAF from 17 which presumably means they think they're ready to train.
Edited by 0000 on Wednesday 20th August 11:31
0000 said:
Quite Driving an F1 car isn't something you need a 7 year degree in. I'm sure I've read that the age for peak performance in swimmers is about 20 and not much more than 30 for chess.
Assuming F1 is nearer swimming than chess, there's presumably only one way to get an experienced F1 driver in their early twenties and that's to start with an inexperienced one in their teens. Good luck to him I say, it seems more credible to me to let a young man have a go than a relatively old woman.
ETA: Seeing as pilots always come up in F1 threads, you can join the RAF from 17 which presumably means they think they're ready to train.
driving may not be something that you need a 7 year degree in - "racecraft" improved with age though, look at how Tom Kristensen and Alan McNish deal with traffic at Le Mans for example, or how Alonso/Jenson/Webber judge those amazing wheel to wheel overtaking moves. Assuming F1 is nearer swimming than chess, there's presumably only one way to get an experienced F1 driver in their early twenties and that's to start with an inexperienced one in their teens. Good luck to him I say, it seems more credible to me to let a young man have a go than a relatively old woman.
ETA: Seeing as pilots always come up in F1 threads, you can join the RAF from 17 which presumably means they think they're ready to train.
Edited by 0000 on Wednesday 20th August 11:31
Also working with an F1 team and feeding back data to them to help improve the car - also something very hard that takes time.
But the biggest thing for him is going to be the media spotlight that will dwarf many of the examples listed above (except the footballers, but bad example because plenty of them fail at an early age - Freddy Alou? Remember Sonny Pike!!).
Heard on Five Live yesterday talked OK - but like a 16 year old, one sentence answers: the interviewer had to work hard! Understandable i guess!
andyps said:
In a way for me this undermines the whole principle of F1 being the pinnacle of motorsport. If you can be at the top level in your chosen profession at the age of 17 what does that mean? I know drivers start at much younger ages in all the various feeder series starting with karting but in my view it isn't right to be able to get to F1 at the age of 17 - maybe there need to be more steps in the ladder. Also, if a 17year old gets a drive what happens to anyone who is 18 and still not made it to F1, should they give up?
Did you watch the Olympics at all? Plenty of competitors, at the peak of their sport, under 20, and in some disciplines, the vast majority!RemarkLima said:
Did you watch the Olympics at all? Plenty of competitors, at the peak of their sport, under 20, and in some disciplines, the vast majority!
I don't watch the olympics as it happens, but 400 meters is is 400 meters regardless of age. An F1 car should be a challenge which takes experience to be able to handle if it is to remain the pinnacle of motor sport. Otherwise, what makes it worth watching? Some of the falling viewing figures are down to the lack of challenge I'm pretty sure, it can all look easy (and I know it isn't) but if it can be done by someone who is so young I think it sends a message that the challenge isn't particularly great and it doesn't need much in the way of experience to take it on. Which actually all indicates that LMP1 is the pinnacle of motor sport, but many of us knew that already.andyps said:
I don't watch the olympics as it happens, but 400 meters is is 400 meters regardless of age. An F1 car should be a challenge which takes experience to be able to handle if it is to remain the pinnacle of motor sport. Otherwise, what makes it worth watching? Some of the falling viewing figures are down to the lack of challenge I'm pretty sure, it can all look easy (and I know it isn't) but if it can be done by someone who is so young I think it sends a message that the challenge isn't particularly great and it doesn't need much in the way of experience to take it on. Which actually all indicates that LMP1 is the pinnacle of motor sport, but many of us knew that already.
Is it next year that you'll be winning the F1 World Championship? Or is it just the budgetary constraints again?Realistically, any top driver from any highly competitive national or international series would probably be fairly competitive in an F1 car. However, to say it clearly isn't a challenge if a 17 year old can' is clearly b/s! Max Verstappen has a lot of experience and hasn't exactly embarrassed himself so far in his career.
Anyway...what exactly would make an F1 car so much of a challenge only a 25+ year old could race it? A requirement to answer complicated relationship questions whilst driving? Discussion of interest rates on a £190,000 mortgage? Consideration of which ISA to select in the coming financial year?
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