Tell Me About The Handley Page Halifax
Discussion
With all this talk of the Lancaster at the moment, I thought another similar, but slightly less fondly-remembered, Second World War bomber deserved its own thread.
My Great Grandfather was an RAF Pilot who, I had always been told, flew Lancasters during WWII. He was killed in a mid-air collision with another RAF aircraft in poor visibility on return from a mission over Münster in late 1944. My Grandmother has a box of everything to do with her dad's life, with much information on his time during War.
It was only when this was loaned to me for a few days that I started to gather information and do some research where I learned that, in actual fact, it was not a Lancaster that he flew, but a Handley Page Halifax. My Grandmother was surprised she had been wrong for all those years, but was happy I had managed to find out some more information on the accident.
Obviously I have looked the aircraft up on Wikipedia etc., but I'm sure you PHers can recall some interesting facts and stories that aren't readily available on Google!
From what I've read, it was generally regarded as being inferior to the Lancaster, but was quite similar in terms of the design. Whatever, it must have been decent enough - Halifaxes carried my Great Grandfather and his Crew back and forth to Germany many times before the tragedy that later occurred. I'd love to find out some more.
My Great Grandfather was an RAF Pilot who, I had always been told, flew Lancasters during WWII. He was killed in a mid-air collision with another RAF aircraft in poor visibility on return from a mission over Münster in late 1944. My Grandmother has a box of everything to do with her dad's life, with much information on his time during War.
It was only when this was loaned to me for a few days that I started to gather information and do some research where I learned that, in actual fact, it was not a Lancaster that he flew, but a Handley Page Halifax. My Grandmother was surprised she had been wrong for all those years, but was happy I had managed to find out some more information on the accident.
Obviously I have looked the aircraft up on Wikipedia etc., but I'm sure you PHers can recall some interesting facts and stories that aren't readily available on Google!
From what I've read, it was generally regarded as being inferior to the Lancaster, but was quite similar in terms of the design. Whatever, it must have been decent enough - Halifaxes carried my Great Grandfather and his Crew back and forth to Germany many times before the tragedy that later occurred. I'd love to find out some more.
Firstly, I would not say it was inferior to the Lancaster. In some ways, its capabilities as a pure bomber were less but it was actually a very versatile aeroplane and performed a much greater variety of roles in the RAF than the Lancaster did. It was also used in more theatres of war than the Lancaster.
Both aircraft emerged out of the same 1936 Air Ministry specification. The specification called for the new bomber to be powered by two Rolls Royce Vultures. Avro stuck to this brief and produced the Manchester - which was a failure because of the terrible reliability of the Vulture.
Handley Page realised that the Vulture was going to be problematic so changed their design very early on to take four Merlins. It was a wise move because it meant that the RAF had reasonably reliable four engined Halifaxes in service when it was struggling with unreliable Manchesters.
The early Halifaxes had their problems though, particularly the propensity to suffer rudder stalls if the rudder was handled roughly.
With Avro rescuing their design by converting it into the Lancaster, it then looked like the Halifax might be superseded. However, Handley Page improved their design too by switching to the Bristol Hercules as the main engine and they also enlarged the fin and rudder to get over the rudder stall problems.
Aircrew who flew in the Halifax always liked it because it was roomier inside than the Lancaster. Statistics show that more aircrew escaped from crashing Halifaxes than from Lancasters - because they were easier to get out of if in trouble.
Both aircraft emerged out of the same 1936 Air Ministry specification. The specification called for the new bomber to be powered by two Rolls Royce Vultures. Avro stuck to this brief and produced the Manchester - which was a failure because of the terrible reliability of the Vulture.
Handley Page realised that the Vulture was going to be problematic so changed their design very early on to take four Merlins. It was a wise move because it meant that the RAF had reasonably reliable four engined Halifaxes in service when it was struggling with unreliable Manchesters.
The early Halifaxes had their problems though, particularly the propensity to suffer rudder stalls if the rudder was handled roughly.
With Avro rescuing their design by converting it into the Lancaster, it then looked like the Halifax might be superseded. However, Handley Page improved their design too by switching to the Bristol Hercules as the main engine and they also enlarged the fin and rudder to get over the rudder stall problems.
Aircrew who flew in the Halifax always liked it because it was roomier inside than the Lancaster. Statistics show that more aircrew escaped from crashing Halifaxes than from Lancasters - because they were easier to get out of if in trouble.
If I had been on a heavy bomber crew in Bomber Command I'd have wanted to be on Halifax BIIIs. Four gun mid-upper turret, damage resistant Hercules engines, well designed crew escape hatches and flight performance not far off a Lancaster. Still wouldn't have the range/payload of the Lancaster but I'm not sure that would have been my priority!
Eric Mc said:
The early Halifaxes had their problems though, particularly the propensity to suffer rudder stalls if the rudder was handled roughly.
With Avro rescuing their design by converting it into the Lancaster, it then looked like the Halifax might be superseded. However, Handley Page improved their design too by switching to the Bristol Hercules as the main engine and they also enlarged the fin and rudder to get over the rudder stall problems.
That's not strictly true, the early Halifaxes suffered problems with fin stall.With Avro rescuing their design by converting it into the Lancaster, it then looked like the Halifax might be superseded. However, Handley Page improved their design too by switching to the Bristol Hercules as the main engine and they also enlarged the fin and rudder to get over the rudder stall problems.
Any aircraft will fin stall if you get the degree of sideslip great enough (15-20 degrees) when trying to manoeuvre at high angles of attack (eg 'Corkscrewing in a wartime 'Heavy') and it is exacerbated in prop a/c owing to the way the prop wash impacts the empenage. In the case of the Halifax, fin stall was (in many cases) un-recoverable because it lead to a rudder 'hard over' leading to a total loss of rudder authority.
In the Halifax MkIII and later models the larger fin/rudder arrangement did not prevent fin stall per sé but it did counteract the tendancy to rudder 'hard overs'.
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
That's not strictly true, the early Halifaxes suffered problems with fin stall.
Any aircraft will fin stall if you get the degree of sideslip great enough (15-20 degrees) when trying to manoeuvre at high angles of attack (eg 'Corkscrewing in a wartime 'Heavy') and it is exacerbated in prop a/c owing to the way the prop wash impacts the empenage. In the case of the Halifax, fin stall was (in many cases) un-recoverable because it lead to a rudder 'hard over' leading to a total loss of rudder authority.
In the Halifax MkIII and later models the larger fin/rudder arrangement did not prevent fin stall per sé but it did counteract the tendancy to rudder 'hard overs'.
I knew I wasn't 100% correct but I wasn't motivated enough to find out EXACTLY what the problem with the fin and rudder was. Essentially the whole fin was too small and the pilot could get a rudder "hard-over" which was impossible to correct.Any aircraft will fin stall if you get the degree of sideslip great enough (15-20 degrees) when trying to manoeuvre at high angles of attack (eg 'Corkscrewing in a wartime 'Heavy') and it is exacerbated in prop a/c owing to the way the prop wash impacts the empenage. In the case of the Halifax, fin stall was (in many cases) un-recoverable because it lead to a rudder 'hard over' leading to a total loss of rudder authority.
In the Halifax MkIII and later models the larger fin/rudder arrangement did not prevent fin stall per sé but it did counteract the tendancy to rudder 'hard overs'.
At one point Arthur Harris was so anti-Halifax that he wanted Handley Page to cease construction and become a sub-contractor for Lancaster manufacturing.
Handley Page weren't too keen on that and worked hard to improve the basic design.
Harris never really was a fan and by the end of the war, Bomber Command had virtually completely switched to Lancasters in the heavy bomber role. But that freed up Halifaxes for all the other roles they played - such as spy droppers, transports, glider tugs etc.
Mutley said:
Interesting posts, thanks folks. We can sometimes forget there were other Heavies other than the Lancaster in WWII.
Are there any surviving airframes? Am I correct in thinking Hendon has one?
By the early 1970s there wan't a single complete Halifax in existence. In 1972, an RAF recovery team pulled one up from the bottom of a lake in Norway. That is the one on display at Hendon. It is displayed in a more or less "as found" stateAre there any surviving airframes? Am I correct in thinking Hendon has one?
There is a "reconstructed" Halifax at Elvington. It is made up of bits and pieces of a genuine Halifax and some bits of a Hastings together with newly manufactured components.
The best and most complete example is on display in Canada at the National Aviation Museum.
This is another example that was dragged of a Norwegian lake bottom but in this case it was fully restored to its original glory -
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Hendon's (W1048, a Merlin engined MkII) is displayed in 'unrestored, as recovered' state, except for the nose turret, which had already been restored. They've recreated the scene from the lake bed, so it is essentially displayed exactly as it was found in the 1970's.
HR792 (Friday the 13th) is a 'complete' composite (and fully restored) Halifax on display at the Yorkshire Air Museum, Elvington. The rear fuselage was recovered from Stornaway, rebuilt with some parts from crash sites and some new material, and mated to a set of H.P. Hastings wings. You can pre-book a guided tour of this one direct with the Museum... http://www.yorkshireairmuseum.org/exhibits/aircraf... ...or take a 'virtual reality' tour of the interior of the aircraft on this page of their website... http://www.yorkshireairmuseum.org/halifax-360vr-to...
There's at least one 'complete' aircraft in Canada too, NA337, recovered from Norway, is fully restored. There are mutterings over there about getting one into the air at some point as well. That, though, involves the plan to raise LW170 from the sea off Ireland.
A cockpit section was displayed in the IWM London before the recent revamp. You could walk through it, but much of the interior was incomplete. I've no idea if it's still on display, though, after the significant work on the building ready for the WWI centenary, as I've yet to visit the new displays.
There's more here... http://www.578squadron.org.uk/halifax/survivors.ht... ...and that page also has links to the museums etc where the aircraft are on display.
To sum up - three complete airframes, two in UK, one of those is restored, the other looks like you would expect after 30+ years under water. Plus a cockpit section. There's also the Canadian restoration, and plans, if they can find it, to raise and restore LW170.
Edit: Damn! Beaten to it by Eric
HR792 (Friday the 13th) is a 'complete' composite (and fully restored) Halifax on display at the Yorkshire Air Museum, Elvington. The rear fuselage was recovered from Stornaway, rebuilt with some parts from crash sites and some new material, and mated to a set of H.P. Hastings wings. You can pre-book a guided tour of this one direct with the Museum... http://www.yorkshireairmuseum.org/exhibits/aircraf... ...or take a 'virtual reality' tour of the interior of the aircraft on this page of their website... http://www.yorkshireairmuseum.org/halifax-360vr-to...
There's at least one 'complete' aircraft in Canada too, NA337, recovered from Norway, is fully restored. There are mutterings over there about getting one into the air at some point as well. That, though, involves the plan to raise LW170 from the sea off Ireland.
A cockpit section was displayed in the IWM London before the recent revamp. You could walk through it, but much of the interior was incomplete. I've no idea if it's still on display, though, after the significant work on the building ready for the WWI centenary, as I've yet to visit the new displays.
There's more here... http://www.578squadron.org.uk/halifax/survivors.ht... ...and that page also has links to the museums etc where the aircraft are on display.
To sum up - three complete airframes, two in UK, one of those is restored, the other looks like you would expect after 30+ years under water. Plus a cockpit section. There's also the Canadian restoration, and plans, if they can find it, to raise and restore LW170.
Edit: Damn! Beaten to it by Eric
Edited by yellowjack on Thursday 21st August 08:30
It would indeed be nice if there was a bit more appreciation of the other bombers that were used by Bomber Command during the war. Apart from the Halifax, there was, of course, the Short Stirling, the first of the 4 engined heavies to enter service.
And, not to be ignored either, the twin engined aircraft that Bomber Command had to use for the first two years of the war, particularly the Hampden, Whitley and Wellington.
And, not to be ignored either, the twin engined aircraft that Bomber Command had to use for the first two years of the war, particularly the Hampden, Whitley and Wellington.
Edited by Eric Mc on Thursday 21st August 11:15
Eric, Yellowjack, thanks for your answers. Can always rely on the PH collective to come up tops.
Toatally agree that the Lancaster seems to get the glory, when there were other heavies doing just as much work
On a slight tangent, and not wanting to hijack, I was told that the old Southend Museum used to have a Lincoln or a Stirling, and it was taken away to North Weald. Is any of that true?
Toatally agree that the Lancaster seems to get the glory, when there were other heavies doing just as much work
On a slight tangent, and not wanting to hijack, I was told that the old Southend Museum used to have a Lincoln or a Stirling, and it was taken away to North Weald. Is any of that true?
There is a group dedicated to building the forward fuselage of a Stirling. Many large parts of a Stirling wreck on the moors local to me were removed a few years back (by a Chinook IIRC) and are being used for the project:
http://stirlingproject.co.uk/
http://stirlingproject.co.uk/
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