1 DAY LPG CONVERSIONS eg LEEDS LPG/ SAVE-CAR LPG

1 DAY LPG CONVERSIONS eg LEEDS LPG/ SAVE-CAR LPG

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sparkyhx

4,143 posts

203 months

Monday 2nd March 2015
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SimonYorkshire said:
Oilchange - it's funny you should say the garage near you at 49.9p per litre is one of the cheapest in the country.. What a coincidence, because it's available at 49.9p per litre within 5 miles of me too! Around Birmingham it is available at 39.9p per litre. I have never seen a 'member card activated' pump, the low prices are available to anyone.


Simon
I have found Birmingham cheap as well - no idea why. Cheapest I ever saw outside Birmingham was where I used to fill up in Halifax

giblet

8,824 posts

176 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
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Cheapest I have paid so far was 44.9 a few weeks ago. Getting my leaky downpipes sorted soon which should improve my MPG by a good amount. It's still working out to be significantly cheaper for me to run my old jap rustbucket on LPG. I think I have nearly made the cost of converting the car back with the fuel savings.

eltax91

9,842 posts

205 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
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SimonYorkshire said:
I can see those points and I appreciate that they are will balanced and made fairly.

Some vehicles don't come with a spare wheel these days anyway, but if carrying a spare wheel is important to you, you can always put the spare in the boot when you don't need all the load space? Instant tire repair aerosols will effect a repair for most flats anyway (and modern space-saver spares can also only be considered a temporary repair)?

In your above example, range on petrol is 400 miles, range on LPG 300 miles, so range on LPG is 25% less that range on petrol but, of course, your total range has gone up from 400 miles to 700 miles... That is, it would be if you didn't mind running on petrol.... So this point says as much for LPG as it does against, because you do mind running on petrol - It saves you lots of money, right? And you could have had a bigger tank or small second LPG tank fitted to give better range on LPG than on petrol..

Extra maintenance involves the changing of 2 filters every couple of years which together might cost a tenner if you change them yourself. Compare this 'extra maintenance' on top of usual petrol engine maintenance costs to the extra maintenance that a diesel engine requires over a petrol, then on top of this, factor in the increased likelihood of a diesel engine developing problems with DMF, DPF, EGR, injector problems.

OK, finding LPG isn't always easy if you often drive in unfamiliar areas and sometimes a small detour to fill with LPG is necessary. But I wonder how many people are prepared to make a slight detour to pay only a couple of pence less per litre for petrol or diesel (representing maybe a 1% or 2% lower price than the garage that's much closer). In the case of LPG, we're not talking about driving a few extra miles to save just a couple of pence per litre, we're talking driving a couple of extra miles to save in the region of 50p per litre (representing maybe over a 50% saving)! How far do you reckon diesel / petrol only vehicle owners would go out of their way to buy petrol / diesel at 49.9p per litre? Currently around 1 in 6 petrol stations sell LPG with this number increasing all the time and many other types of fill stations exist too, such as Calor depots.

Simon
Yes, you are making light of the arguments against LPG, of course you are, you carry out installs for a living, I would expect nothing less.

With respect to my range, yes, I could get 700 miles range (and have), but the point still stands, similar size tank (both take around 55L of fuel to brim), the LPG is 25% worse on range, because it's 25% or thereabouts worse on economy. And yes, of course I want to only run it on LPG, because that's the cheapest way to run the car, this point most definitely does NOT say as much for LPG as it does against it. I find I often am forced to use petrol, despite the cost impact, precisely because the range is poor, i continue useing LPG IN SPITE of this, because of the cost savings, it;s unarguably a big disadvantage though. Where am I going to fit an extra tank on an Honda Accord estate without impacting on my load space??

In reference to maintenance, apart from regular petrol injectors and regular petrol filters, ANY LPG maintenance is EXTRA. So you can't simply compare it to running a petrol car can you? Or even to running a diesel car. This is an additional system bolted on to the car, and with additional systems comes additional cost. For example, in the 18 months I have had the system, it's had 2 x new multivales (previous one's kept getting stuck) and a new injector, with another one on the way out. Both under warranty, but injectors are £25-35 a throw, so if one needs doing a year i'll soon have that (minor) cost to cover, plus the annual filter change at a miniscule £10. I'm not saying it's expensive, but it is a downside.

Then there's the one problem I've never solved, nor no garage seems able to. The fuel needle is CANBUS in my accord, so it takes an input (from the MAF or injector open time or something) and decreases the fuel needle reading. Even though the car is running on LPG. Around every 200 miles or so the car then updates the fuel needle and my real petrol level is displayed (needle rises), and the whole process starts again. Except when the car's petrol level gets to the "orange light" (remember there's around 1/4 tank at this point), it then refuses to update, unless I fill the car up. So my only solution is to run around with the tank full of unleaded, extra weight etc, and top it off when it gets anywhere near the fuel warning light, normally i do it at 3/4 tank to save the hassle. This problem really pisses me off! hehe

So far this has been proved unfix-able (even the might of PH's told me to carry a can of fuel around with me!), I have a gadget sat on my desk waiting to be wired in that might fix it, but who knows.

All in all, I think your arguments are admirable but wrong. There are downsides to LPG, they are plentiful, i guess that's why so few people use it, it's too much hassle for the cost savings, but for me, at 33k miles a year, every year, without fail, these oddities are worth the saving.

SimonYorkshire

762 posts

115 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
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eltax91 said:
Yes, you are making light of the arguments against LPG, of course you are, you carry out installs for a living, I would expect nothing less.

Maybe I am make lighter of those points than you, we're both just putting things from our own point of view.

eltax91 said:
With respect to my range, yes, I could get 700 miles range (and have), but the point still stands, similar size tank (both take around 55L of fuel to brim), the LPG is 25% worse on range, because it's 25% or thereabouts worse on economy. And yes, of course I want to only run it on LPG, because that's the cheapest way to run the car, this point most definitely does NOT say as much for LPG as it does against it. I find I often am forced to use petrol, despite the cost impact, precisely because the range is poor, i continue useing LPG IN SPITE of this, because of the cost savings, it;s unarguably a big disadvantage though. Where am I going to fit an extra tank on an Honda Accord estate without impacting on my load space??
A 25% drop in mpg isn't good going, that equates to 5% worse than the worst case scenario, would expect a 10% to 15% drop in mpg on your model of vehicle. You've said you might expect me to bias my arguments, some might expect you to work in a bit of bias for the sake of your arguments.. One thing's for sure, even if you do you 25% more LPG than petrol, due to the difference in cost between the two fuels, it would still be incorrect to say 25% worse economy'. Only a 300 mile range on LPG compared to 400 on petrol, oh no that's terrible - think of the difference that the extra 100 mile range could make eh? So 700 altogether, but you don't want to use any of the 400 that running on petrol could provide because running on petrol is more expensive... Ok! To increase range you could get your LPG system looked at to see why you're using 25% more LPG than you would petrol or, like you've said, could fit a bigger tank or second tank but these would impart on your luggage area, though perhaps less than you think... could fit a taller tank (which would involve raising the boot floor (an inch and a half should allow a tank to fit that will provide the 400 mile range) / could fit a second small tank in the luggage area - available in many shapes / sizes etc, one example measuring 20cm diameter by only 55cm length would again increase your range to over 400 miles. I suppose you might now say that you regularly use the full luggage space, filling it to the brim from front to back, bottom to top, and there's no way this would be acceptable either? I don't think your use of the phrase 'in spite of this' best fits the context of your arguments.

eltax91 said:
In reference to maintenance, apart from regular petrol injectors and regular petrol filters, ANY LPG maintenance is EXTRA. So you can't simply compare it to running a petrol car can you? Or even to running a diesel car. This is an additional system bolted on to the car, and with additional systems comes additional cost. For example, in the 18 months I have had the system, it's had 2 x new multivales (previous one's kept getting stuck) and a new injector, with another one on the way out. Both under warranty, but injectors are £25-35 a throw, so if one needs doing a year i'll soon have that (minor) cost to cover, plus the annual filter change at a miniscule £10. I'm not saying it's expensive, but it is a downside.


Here's how I see regular maintenance comparing: Petrol car- spark plugs, air filter, oil filter, oil. Petrol / LPG car- same but with a once every 24 months LPG filter change costing £10 for the bits. Diesel car- oil, oil filter, air filter, diesel filter BUT all of these more often than on the petrol and petrol / LPG car. Other maintenance costs such as DPF's, DMF's don't necessarily apply to petrol or petrol / LPG cars and are specific to diesels. Everyone knows that diesels need more regular maintenance than petrol or petrol / LPG cars.
Multivalves are the valve that fits to the tank, to change the valve that you referred to twice in 18months would be unheard of, they usually last a lifetime. You may be referring to the solenoid valve on the tank but it would be unheard of for this valve to get stuck twice in 18months too, but if it did it wouldn't be much of a problem.. unscrew the solenoid valve from the multivalve, clean it out and put it back, or if it was broken it would cost maybe a fiver for a new one. Some LPG injectors are much more reliable than others but even poor LPG injectors are about as reliable as common rail diesel injectors and you should price one of those up! The type of injectors I fit never fail, injectors are not part of routine maintenance.

eltax91 said:
Then there's the one problem I've never solved, nor no garage seems able to. The fuel needle is CANBUS in my accord, so it takes an input (from the MAF or injector open time or something) and decreases the fuel needle reading. Even though the car is running on LPG. Around every 200 miles or so the car then updates the fuel needle and my real petrol level is displayed (needle rises), and the whole process starts again. Except when the car's petrol level gets to the "orange light" (remember there's around 1/4 tank at this point), it then refuses to update, unless I fill the car up. So my only solution is to run around with the tank full of unleaded, extra weight etc, and top it off when it gets anywhere near the fuel warning light, normally i do it at 3/4 tank to save the hassle. This problem really pisses me off! hehe

So far this has been proved unfix-able (even the might of PH's told me to carry a can of fuel around with me!), I have a gadget sat on my desk waiting to be wired in that might fix it, but who knows.
I would know if you told me the spec of the unit you might fit! Like you've said, most garages might not know what's happening here but most garages aren't LPG specialists... What you've described isn't directly related to the vehicle 'being canbus' but there aren't many vehicles that don't have a canbus that are affected in this way. Overall only a minority of vehicles are affected. What happens on most of the vehicles that this occurs with is that when you've had the petrol filler door open the ECU which controls the dash instruments takes a level reading from your petrol tank, then as you're driving around it knows how much petrol you should be using and (without taking further measurements from the tank) calculates the position for the petrol gauge to point to. Since you're not really using petrol (because you're using LPG instead), after a long enough journey there will be more petrol in the tank than the petrol gauge shows. Without needing to fit any electrical gizmos, you don't need to put petrol in the tank to get the gauge to show correct again, you just need to open the petrol fuel door... Electric gizmo fixes can work in different ways - One way gives the dash ECU a fake signal that the petrol fill door has been opened, other types of gizmo occasionally give a fake signal of a very full or empty petrol tank, causing the dash ECU to confirm it's assumptions of petrol tank level and take further readings from the petrol tank level sender.

eltax91 said:
All in all, I think your arguments are admirable but wrong. There are downsides to LPG, they are plentiful, i guess that's why so few people use it, it's too much hassle for the cost savings, but for me, at 33k miles a year, every year, without fail, these oddities are worth the saving.


I don't agree, and think there are plenty of errors in your assumptions! You'd have us believe that a 300 mile range on LPG is terrible but a 400 mile range on petrol would be excellent (but with the LPG system fitted you now have a 700 mile range and choose not to use all of it) / that LPG systems are less reliable than they actually are / that spending £10 on a couple a filters every 2 years compares un-favorably to diesel servicing costs (which are needed more often than on petrol vehicles in any case and, along with specific diesel only consumable costs such as DPF's, make diesels cost much more than petrol / petrol & LPG vehicles to service) / that you couldn't get all your gear in the boot if the boot floor was raised an inch and a bit? I reckon most people don't use LPG because they are not wised up on it... My dad had one of the first diesel cars I ever saw when most people thought of diesel simply as being lorry fuel and garages that sold diesel were few and far between. I think most people, if they take a second glance at LPG pumps at garages at all, will expect this to be some exotic fuel that only a small minority of factory converted LPG only vehicles are able to run on, while those that are aware they could have their vehicle converted to LPG simply also discount it without giving it much thought... Plenty people want to stop smoking, myself included, not just for the health benefits but also for the financial savings. I am aware that there are hypnotherapy courses around where you can pay £100 for a few stop smoking sessions and, if they don't work, you get your money back. The thing is, right now I don't want to spend £100 on hypnotherapy, even though I know doing so would make a lot of sense. Some of my mates smoke and I am in no worse a position than them, plus I don't know much about hypnotherapy and it seems a bit of an odd thing to do. Not many people want to spend money on an LPG conversion, even if logic tells them it's the most sensible thing to do. Instead they would rather consider themselves no worse of than the neighbour when paying for diesel or petrol, kid themselves there's no need to pay out for an LPG conversion - which would save them a lot of money but on a fill by fill basis compared to the conversion fee which would be a one-off.... all the above related to human nature.

Simon

eltax91

9,842 posts

205 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
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I don't think it's worth arguing any further on the range/ economy point of view, we are never going to agree. Yes I could trade some space for another tank or even a taller one (the current one is quite tall, the boot bottom doesn't shut properly) but that trade off was too much for me. My car is an estate and I don't often fill it, quite true, but I do pretty regularly drop the rear seats flat and use the full load space, tip runs, ikea, b and q etc. so, not for me, I will live with the range and have been for 18 months. Like I've said already, I know if I want to I can get 700 miles range, but the whole point of paying upfront to fit lpg is to save fuel costs. Using a hybrid approach just impacts this, so I do use it, but only when necessary.

I calculated all my mpg on fuelly.com. 32.5 on petrol, 25.6 on gas. In terms of ppm, it's gone from near enough 19 to 14, but as ive stated before I don't hunt out the cheapest gas because the nature of my job and the range issue makes it inconvenient. Sometimes cheaper to pay more per litre than waste time/ petrol looking for gas. I'm pretty confident my system is well setup and tuned. The guy who fitted it is an engineer for JLR by day and a honda fanatic by night. He's convertes dozens of Hondas and ive had 2 free check/ tuning sessions with him since install. He seems to know his onions at least on the face of it anyway.

Interesting suggestion on the petrol flap. Sadly, one of the first things I tested! No dice. Doesn't matter what I do with the petrol flap, doesn't reset the fuel needle. And, once it's in the 'warning zone' nothing effects it. In fact, I've even tested it and if you don't put at least 5.5l of fuel in, it does not register on the guage at all!

I've purchased a 'FuelCAN' device which my lpg fitter suggested to me after he discovered it on a forum when trying to fix another customers car. I've not had chane to read the info on it, but I believe it take an input directly from the tank float and feeds into the CANBUS system to give an accurate reading on the guage.

Ever convertes a modern (ish) honda Simon? Mine is an accord of 2008 vintage and the first cars honda fitted with these type of fuel systems I'm led to believe from what ive read.

eltax91

9,842 posts

205 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
quotequote all
In reference to the injectors/ valves. I'd be interest led to know which injectors you are using that 'never fail'

As far as the multi valve goes, it's DEFO the multi valve I've had changed. the first one was changed as a troubleshooting test because the 60L tank would not fill beyond 38L. It got better, at high 40's but then kept getting stuck at the top, leaving the guage reading full and preventing filling, even though the tank was empty. Since the second change, it's filling to 52-54l all the time and has not been stuck for a year.

Maybe I have just been unlucky, and all of this was warrantied work, but still, hardly stuff that should be routine. And isn't going to give lpg a good name overall, bad news travels fast.

SimonYorkshire

762 posts

115 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
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eltax91 said:
In reference to the injectors/ valves. I'd be interest led to know which injectors you are using that 'never fail'

As far as the multi valve goes, it's DEFO the multi valve I've had changed. the first one was changed as a troubleshooting test because the 60L tank would not fill beyond 38L. It got better, at high 40's but then kept getting stuck at the top, leaving the guage reading full and preventing filling, even though the tank was empty. Since the second change, it's filling to 52-54l all the time and has not been stuck for a year.

Maybe I have just been unlucky, and all of this was warrantied work, but still, hardly stuff that should be routine. And isn't going to give lpg a good name overall, bad news travels fast.
For installs on most vehicles that aren't particularly demanding in terms of injectors (like yours), I often fit OMVL SL injectors. They're far from the best (or worst) in terms of performance but are very reliable. Other reliable makes of injector include Hana and Keihin to name but a couple. OK when I say 'never fail', this is of course an exaggeration because I might expect them to fail after 200000 miles, but I have converted many vehicles including taxis over the last 5 years using the above injectors and none have yet failed - none! Now, since we're picking fault with specific components and you've made comparisons about diesel servicing costs - your turn to name a common rail diesel engine that doesn't suffer problems with injectors, and quote a price for a new diesel injector to suit? A check on relevant forums will reveal the truth about diesel injector reliability, diagnostic and repair costs. Of course, you may use this to your advantage to find a diesel vehicle that seems to have fewest injector problems and cheapest repair cost...

The multivalve prob sounds like installer error or poor choice of multivalve by the installer! It can be easy for someone who doesn't quite know what they are doing to inserting the valve incorrectly, maybe bending the float arm in the process, and this could certainly cause the exact type of problem you've mentioned... We wouldn't expect anyone to do the same twice though, as it's the kind of mistake you quickly learn from! Most of the usual makes of multivalve are extremely reliable but better installers know of exceptions - I wouldn't want to fit an Aldesa multivalve for instance. I dare say in your case, with valve now seemingly installed correctly, you will never have another problem with the multivalve again.

What make of multivalve and injectors are fitted on your vehicle? Also worth saying that injectors can be damaged running on gas that is too cold (the reducer should supply warm gas), so injector problems can also be caused by reducer issues and/or settings made by the installer.

I don't know if you have been unlucky or if your installer (a guy who works for JLR and is a Honda fanatic doesn't read like an accomplished LPG pro to me) made a few errors that led to your problems. It seems you like LPG and other than the problems you've mentioned, you wouldn't want to run your car without it? All things considered, do you see LPG in a positive or negative light? If you hadn't had these problems, which I very much doubt would have occurred if I or others that I respect in the industry had converted your vehicle, the only negatives it seems you'd be coming up with would be range 300 miles on LPG compared to 400 miles on petrol (though you could have greater than 400 miles range on LPG by losing a very small amount of luggage area), and the fact that not as many garages sell LPG as petrol or diesel?

If you were offered the chance to sign a contract - Where you would receive the money back for the cost of the conversion but would at the same time agree to have the LPG system removed, to keep the vehicle for another couple of years and continue to do your current mileage in it... would this be a contract you would be willing to sign?

Simon

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 4th March 18:22

eltax91

9,842 posts

205 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
quotequote all
SimonYorkshire said:
eltax91 said:
In reference to the injectors/ valves. I'd be interest led to know which injectors you are using that 'never fail'

As far as the multi valve goes, it's DEFO the multi valve I've had changed. the first one was changed as a troubleshooting test because the 60L tank would not fill beyond 38L. It got better, at high 40's but then kept getting stuck at the top, leaving the guage reading full and preventing filling, even though the tank was empty. Since the second change, it's filling to 52-54l all the time and has not been stuck for a year.

Maybe I have just been unlucky, and all of this was warrantied work, but still, hardly stuff that should be routine. And isn't going to give lpg a good name overall, bad news travels fast.
For installs on most vehicles that aren't particularly demanding in terms of injectors (like yours), I often fit OMVL SL injectors. They're far from the best (or worst) in terms of performance but are very reliable. Other reliable makes of injector include Hana and Keihin to name but a couple. OK when I say 'never fail', this is of course an exaggeration because I might expect them to fail after 200000 miles, but I have converted many vehicles including taxis over the last 5 years using the above injectors and none have yet failed - none! Now, since we're picking fault with specific components and you've made comparisons about diesel servicing costs - your turn to name a common rail diesel engine that doesn't suffer problems with injectors, and quote a price for a new diesel injector to suit? A check on relevant forums will reveal the truth about diesel injector reliability, diagnostic and repair costs. Of course, you may use this to your advantage to find a diesel vehicle that seems to have fewest injector problems and cheapest repair cost...

The multivalve prob sounds like installer error or poor choice of multivalve by the installer! It can be easy for someone who doesn't quite know what they are doing to inserting the valve incorrectly, maybe bending the float arm in the process, and this could certainly cause the exact type of problem you've mentioned... We wouldn't expect anyone to do the same twice though, as it's the kind of mistake you quickly learn from! Most of the usual makes of multivalve are extremely reliable but better installers know of exceptions - I wouldn't want to fit an Aldesa multivalve for instance. I dare say in your case, with valve now seemingly installed correctly, you will never have another problem with the multivalve again.

What make of multivalve and injectors are fitted on your vehicle? Also worth saying that injectors can be damaged running on gas that is too cold (the reducer should supply warm gas), so injector problems can also be caused by reducer issues and/or settings made by the installer.

I don't know if you have been unlucky or if your installer (a guy who works for JLR and is a Honda fanatic doesn't read like an accomplished LPG pro to me) made a few errors that led to your problems. It seems you like LPG and other than the problems you've mentioned, you wouldn't want to run your car without it? All things considered, do you see LPG in a positive or negative light? If you hadn't had these problems, which I very much doubt would have occurred if I or others that I respect in the industry had converted your vehicle, the only negatives it seems you'd be coming up with would be range 300 miles on LPG compared to 400 miles on petrol (though you could have greater than 400 miles range on LPG by losing a very small amount of luggage area), and the fact that not as many garages sell LPG as petrol or diesel?

If you were offered the chance to sign a contract - Where you would receive the money back for the cost of the conversion but would at the same time agree to have the LPG system removed, to keep the vehicle for another couple of years and continue to do your current mileage in it... would this be a contract you would be willing to sign?

Simon

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 4th March 18:22
since you seem set on asking me alot of questions, I will answer them...!

Injectors and multivalve are "LPG TECH" as far as I understand

My installaer isn't a cowboy, he's done dozen's of installs, has a referencable portfolio online and i PM'd several people who he'd done installs for and other than the faulty injector and multivalve issues it's been issue free. He's also put them all right under warranty. He also took the time to remove the manifold to avoid swarf when drilling and hid away the components on the whole to give an almost OEM look in the engine bay. I think he did a thread on my car, i will try and dig it out.

Could I live with losing a tiny amount of boot space, probably not since any cyclinder tank in the boot would kill the flat load space completely. I already compromised on the torodial tank being as high as i'd dare

On the whole I like gas, but if you gave me my money back today to remove the install after 18 months of free running, I'd probably take it yes. The range is a pain, filling up is a pain and i'd probably do without it and bank the £1250 on fuel. I'm sure in 2-3 years time when i look at my bank balance and splash out on the kit car i've always wanted to build, then I will appreciate the cost savings I've had.

Now, if only i could fix this bloody fuel needle! Any suggestions? hehe

BritishRacinGrin

24,602 posts

159 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
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SimonYorkshire said:
BritishRacinGrin said:
SimonYorkshire said:
there are no catches to LPG...
really?
Are you going to point some out then? ;-)

Simon
eltax91 has already detailed several.

I can add to them though;
-Increased complexity of valuing and insuring the car.
-Converted cars are unable to use the channel tunnel and cross channel ferries with certain companies
-Installation hardware adds weight and complexity, and can add to servicing and repair times due to restricted access
-Installation requires penetrations in bodywork, including but not limited to the conspicuous additional filler cap, all of these holes can invite leaks and ultimately corrosion.

SimonYorkshire said:
installers are generally well practiced at sales talk!
Clearly wink

It's important to me that you know I'm not 'with' you or 'against' you, converting my car is something I have considered at length and still think about sometimes... However I do think to say there are 'no catches' is quite erroneous because there are patently many catches. Clearly each potential customer must weigh up the pros and cons for themselves as the choice, much like the endless diesel vs petrol debates, will depend on many factors and circumstances.

eltax91

9,842 posts

205 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
BritishRacinGrin said:
SimonYorkshire said:
BritishRacinGrin said:
SimonYorkshire said:
there are no catches to LPG...
really?
Are you going to point some out then? ;-)

Simon
eltax91 has already detailed several.

I can add to them though;
-Increased complexity of valuing and insuring the car.
-Converted cars are unable to use the channel tunnel and cross channel ferries with certain companies
-Installation hardware adds weight and complexity, and can add to servicing and repair times due to restricted access
-Installation requires penetrations in bodywork, including but not limited to the conspicuous additional filler cap, all of these holes can invite leaks and ultimately corrosion.

SimonYorkshire said:
installers are generally well practiced at sales talk!
Clearly wink

It's important to me that you know I'm not 'with' you or 'against' you, converting my car is something I have considered at length and still think about sometimes... However I do think to say there are 'no catches' is quite erroneous because there are patently many catches. Clearly each potential customer must weigh up the pros and cons for themselves as the choice, much like the endless diesel vs petrol debates, will depend on many factors and circumstances.
Genuine question, the filler cap, how much does that put you off? I hated the idea enough that i wouldn't have had the conversion done, but my installer fitted it where a towbar normally goes, so no bodywork changes required. biggrin

BritishRacinGrin

24,602 posts

159 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
Alas I'm a regular towbar user frown

It isn't the only thing that puts me off, it's a combination of things including the fact that the install even if I Tinley Tech'd it (DIY) the kit would cost more than the value of the car. I intend to keep the car but the big upfront cost is too much of a risk. The channel tunnel / ferry bit is a problem for me too.

SimonYorkshire

762 posts

115 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
eltax91 said:
since you seem set on asking me alot of questions, I will answer them...!

Injectors and multivalve are "LPG TECH" as far as I understand

My installaer isn't a cowboy, he's done dozen's of installs, has a referencable portfolio online and i PM'd several people who he'd done installs for and other than the faulty injector and multivalve issues it's been issue free. He's also put them all right under warranty. He also took the time to remove the manifold to avoid swarf when drilling and hid away the components on the whole to give an almost OEM look in the engine bay. I think he did a thread on my car, i will try and dig it out.

Could I live with losing a tiny amount of boot space, probably not since any cyclinder tank in the boot would kill the flat load space completely. I already compromised on the torodial tank being as high as i'd dare

On the whole I like gas, but if you gave me my money back today to remove the install after 18 months of free running, I'd probably take it yes. The range is a pain, filling up is a pain and i'd probably do without it and bank the £1250 on fuel. I'm sure in 2-3 years time when i look at my bank balance and splash out on the kit car i've always wanted to build, then I will appreciate the cost savings I've had.

Now, if only i could fix this bloody fuel needle! Any suggestions? hehe
I think the only question you didn't answer was about diesel injector reliability and replacement cost.
Would regard LPGTech injectors at best as unproven, and since they're similar dimensions and cost as Hana injectors, would have fitted the proven Hana units and doubt you'd have had probs with injectors... Not sure if you're right about the Multivalve but the same would apply - Would let others fit unproven multivalves for a few years before considering fitting one.
Only thing remaining to be said about the installer is that he did fit unproven components and maybe didn't consider well-proven alternatives - I try new to the market stuff on my own cars, no problem, not on customer cars. Other than that, given what you've said, would seem he did at least an aesthetically neat job, probably also a technically good job.
I mentioned a cylinder tank as one option for increased range, the other option was raising the boot floor a little. Most people would think 300 miles on gas comppared to 400 on petrol not too bad, but if you want extra range this might be the way to go.
You didn't answer the question about removing your gas system properly... Question was, if you could get your money back for the install but had to continue to run your car on petrol doing the same mileage etc would you go for it? You mention in 2 to 3 years time splashing out on a kit car... If you continue to run your vehicle on LPG during the next 2 to 3 years you will save more than the £1250 you paid (or would get back) for the conversion - so if you agreed to do that, then to coin a phrase, this would be like biting your nose off to spite your face? You'd have less money to spend on a kit car in 2 to 3 years?
You have a part ready and waiting to be fitted that will fix the fuel gauge issue? Suggestion is to fit it!

BritishRacinGrin said:
-Increased complexity of valuing and insuring the car.
-Converted cars are unable to use the channel tunnel and cross channel ferries with certain companies
-Installation hardware adds weight and complexity, and can add to servicing and repair times due to restricted access
-Installation requires penetrations in bodywork, including but not limited to the conspicuous additional filler cap, all of these holes can invite leaks and ultimately corrosion.
Comparing 2 same model same condition cars but one will run on LPG and cost half as much for fuel. Which one will have the most appeal and hence highest value? In most cases insurance doesn't go up even without needing to change insurer.
No problem getting to the continent with an LPG car... Many owners of converted cars travel back and fro to and from the continent on a regular basis.
Total weight of an LPG conversion for most cars might be around 35kilos. LPG weighs less per litre than water or petrol, so the weight of the LPG kit plus a full tank of LPG might not be much different to the a full tank of petrol if petrol and LPG tank hold about the same.. LPG weighs around half a kilo per litre. Say you have a petrol tank that holds 70L and an LPG tank that holds 70L.. Full tank of petrol weighs 51kg over an empty tank, but you would likely only keep about 15 litres in the petrol tank, weighing 11kg. With a full LPG tank 70L the LPg would weigh 35.5kg, the weight of the LPG tank and rest of LPG system would weigh 35kg, so the full LPG system would weight 70.5kg, or 19kg more than having a full tank of petrol. Most people wouldn't bother carrying the spare wheel - So the vehicle with full LPG tank and 15 litres of petrol in the petrol tank (weighing about the same as the spare wheel) would weigh about the same as the same (but unconverted) vehicle with a full petrol tank. Or to pick straws, 11kg more with the spare wheel in the boot.
Installation does mean holes made in the vehicle, not necessarily in bodywork unless you count the floor-pan as bodywork (often the only holes that are made are screw holes to secure pipe under the vehicle and holes in boot floor to secure the tank)! I seldom fit fillers in bodywork these days, most customers prefer the towbar mount type (even without a towbar these can be fitted), these allow filling from either side of the vehicle and are much less noticeable than the 70mm round fillers that you probably refer to.

eltax91 said:
Genuine question, the filler cap, how much does that put you off? I hated the idea enough that i wouldn't have had the conversion done, but my installer fitted it where a towbar normally goes, so no bodywork changes required. biggrin

Answered above! I believe I started this trend several years ago. It means - no holes in bodywork, is easily removed and has the advantage of being able to fill from either side of the vehicle.

BritishRacinGrin said:
SimonYorkshire said:
installers are generally well practiced at sales talk!
Clearly wink

It's important to me that you know I'm not 'with' you or 'against' you, converting my car is something I have considered at length and still think about sometimes... However I do think to say there are 'no catches' is quite erroneous because there are patently many catches. Clearly each potential customer must weigh up the pros and cons for themselves as the choice, much like the endless diesel vs petrol debates, will depend on many factors and circumstances.
If my 'sales talk' quote was given in context, it becomes clearer that what I was talking about was installers comparing their own services to other installers services... This would be more related to the suitability of components, quality of fitting and after sales service than helping someone with a decision of whether to have or not have an LPG conversion. Having said that, I do realise you're not with or against me!

When I first made the 'no catches' comment, it was really aimed at those who would claim LPG vehicles have lower performance, can be damaged by the LPG system, etc. There are 3 catches: Customer has to pay for the conversion, there are less places to refuel with LPG than petrol or diesel, on most installs the tank will fit in the usual location of the spare wheel (so, then, if you want to carry a spare wheel you'd have to put it in the boot). Pros - An LPG conversion will not damage the engine, will not lower performance, will vastly lower running costs (usually paying for itself within a year), you can run a nice clean and responsive petrol engine (maybe a V6 or V8) for less than diesel running costs, will add value to the vehicle (meaning some of the install costs will be recouped when the vehicle is sold). In mitigation of some of the 'anti' points- Somewhere around 1/6th of filling stations now sell LPG and there are LPG filling places that don't sell petrol or diesel. Granted it isn't like you can see a garage sign from a distance and assume the garage will sell LPG, but it isn't difficult to get hold of and a quick check of an LPG station map before a journey (or using a mobile phone app during a journey, sat nav extensions also being available) will usually point to an LPG station en-route or not far off route. Some new cars don't even have a spare wheel as standard, many cars come with a temporary use only space-save spare wheel, many people are in any case members of AA etc that will get you home or to a garage (that repairs tyres) if you have a flat, most flats can be temporarily repaired using tyre-weld, the owner of an LPG car can keep the spare in the boot for most journeys, should they wish. Big deal not carrying a spare or throwing it in the boot if you don't need all the luggage space?

Have you worked out how much you've spent on fuel while you've been thinking about having a conversion done?

Simon

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Thursday 5th March 14:47

BritishRacinGrin

24,602 posts

159 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
SimonYorkshire said:
Comparing 2 same model same condition cars but one will run on LPG and cost half as much for fuel. Which one will have the most appeal and hence highest value? In most cases insurance doesn't go up even without needing to change insurer.
One run on LPG will not cost half as much for fuel. You do not need to exaggerate to make a strong case for LPG.

My car is to most people a cheap old banger and in my experience LPG converted cars, rightly or wrongly, carry negative perceptions with regards to the owner’s maintenance budget for the car. I don’t think an LPG kit will improve the vehicle’s value in all instances.

Some insurance companies will not insure a modified car, or specifically an LPG converted one. This is limiting. It can easily result in more costly insurance.

SimonYorkshire said:
No problem getting to the continent with an LPG car... Many owners of converted cars travel back and fro to and from the continent on a regular basis.
Of course people are doing it, However it remains a fact that LPG converted cars can’t use the Eurotunnel and some ferry operators. This is limiting.

SimonYorkshire said:
Installation does mean holes made in the vehicle, not necessarily in bodywork unless you count the floor-pan as bodywork (often the only holes that are made are screw holes to secure pipe under the vehicle and holes in boot floor to secure the tank)! I seldom fit fillers in bodywork these days, most customers prefer the towbar mount type (even without a towbar these can be fitted), these allow filling from either side of the vehicle and are much less noticeable than the 70mm round fillers that you probably refer to.
This is actually quite relevant to me, however I have a detachable towbar so other than bodywork I’m not sure where else I can practically situate the filler?

SimonYorkshire said:
When I first made the 'no catches' comment, it was really aimed at those who would claim LPG vehicles have lower performance
They do, don’t they? Not always noticeable in a good install, but still…

SimonYorkshire said:
Have you worked out how much you've spent on fuel while you've been thinking about having a conversion done?
Circa 1,200 GBP

I am currently in a country where all vehicles which work for a living seem to be running on LPG or CNG. I find myself browsing the Tinley Tech website again… But I reject that LPG ‘has no catches’, ‘costs half as much for fuel’ and increases the value of the car, I believe these statements are actually misleading and I take exception to that.

JagXJR

1,261 posts

128 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
For me the biggest worry would be the cost outlay. As I currently don't do a high mileage it would take me a long time to recover the cost. And as the cost is a subsidy from the government, I don't fully trust them not to remove it.

I would also not want to lose the spare, the space-saver is not great but at least will get me home. The last puncture I had would not have been fixed with a can of gunk.

And getting a reliable fitment, who to trust?

Other than that I would have a conversion done if I did higher miles.

I also consider it to be a better fuel than diesel, with the harmful fumes that expels.


Pvb1968

1 posts

88 months

Wednesday 30th November 2016
quotequote all
Hi there
Have run a 2000 bmw 523se on lpg for over 10 years.
£1800 from enviro gas in 2006.
110,000 miles on the clock , not cheap then but proper job .
10 years later and nearly 300,000 miles covered , saved a bloody fortune.
Currently paying 44p a litre at star city near spaghetti junction , birmingham.
More recently it was below 40p and I get 3p off a litre because I have an account that I top up £100 a time.
300 mile to a tank , £25 .
3 available pumps as well , nice.

lindrup119

1,228 posts

142 months

Wednesday 30th November 2016
quotequote all


Nice