Thinking about building a bike engined Seven
Discussion
I have the opportunity to purchase a rolling Caterham Seven chassis.
It has just had a "long front" at Arch Motors following a racing accident, so the chassis is straight and mostly new. It is having the skins replaced too.
It's complete apart from engine, gearbox and ancillaries.
I'm sure there will be bits that i'll need to source to finish it properly, and it will need painting, but it's mostly there i think.
It was never put through the SVA (i think that's what it's called?), so wasn't registered as a road car. I'm not sure how much hassle this would be to do?
I've always fancied a bike engined Seven. Possibly with fireblade of ZZR1400 engine.
I have worked on Sevens before, having raced them on/off for ten years or so, but i'm not the most experienced mechanic! I have done an engine swap before, and have a pretty good garage.
So. Thinking about this as a project, what hurdles might i encounter? Any experience/advice welcome before i decide whether to go for it or not.
In my mind i'm looking to tick the following boxes:
Wide track suspension
Cage
Kevlar/carbon seats
Carbon dash, ideally with the bike dials/LCD dash fitted. Nice and clean with almost no other dials. The new (2012+) fireblade dash would look great behind the wheel with no other dials present.
Removable MOMO wheel
Sequential gearbox
No lights. Possibly rear brake lights as some trackday organisers like to see these.
Aeroscreen across the full width (no windscreen)
Anthracite wheels, with 8" rears
That's about it.
Questions:
Will a ZZR1400 engine fit in the engine bay of a Seven? Too tall?
I'm guessing a bike engine will need to be dry sumped. No experience of a Seven with dry sump. Difficult to do?
How tricky is it to actually fit a bike engine? Presumably new engine mounts will need fabricating?
And how about coupling the engine/box up to the propshaft. I'm guessing some kind of adapter is needed?
How will the gearing be out of the box? Too tall? Too short?
Having written that out i'm not so sure i've got the skills TBH...
It has just had a "long front" at Arch Motors following a racing accident, so the chassis is straight and mostly new. It is having the skins replaced too.
It's complete apart from engine, gearbox and ancillaries.
I'm sure there will be bits that i'll need to source to finish it properly, and it will need painting, but it's mostly there i think.
It was never put through the SVA (i think that's what it's called?), so wasn't registered as a road car. I'm not sure how much hassle this would be to do?
I've always fancied a bike engined Seven. Possibly with fireblade of ZZR1400 engine.
I have worked on Sevens before, having raced them on/off for ten years or so, but i'm not the most experienced mechanic! I have done an engine swap before, and have a pretty good garage.
So. Thinking about this as a project, what hurdles might i encounter? Any experience/advice welcome before i decide whether to go for it or not.
In my mind i'm looking to tick the following boxes:
Wide track suspension
Cage
Kevlar/carbon seats
Carbon dash, ideally with the bike dials/LCD dash fitted. Nice and clean with almost no other dials. The new (2012+) fireblade dash would look great behind the wheel with no other dials present.
Removable MOMO wheel
Sequential gearbox
No lights. Possibly rear brake lights as some trackday organisers like to see these.
Aeroscreen across the full width (no windscreen)
Anthracite wheels, with 8" rears
That's about it.
Questions:
Will a ZZR1400 engine fit in the engine bay of a Seven? Too tall?
I'm guessing a bike engine will need to be dry sumped. No experience of a Seven with dry sump. Difficult to do?
How tricky is it to actually fit a bike engine? Presumably new engine mounts will need fabricating?
And how about coupling the engine/box up to the propshaft. I'm guessing some kind of adapter is needed?
How will the gearing be out of the box? Too tall? Too short?
Having written that out i'm not so sure i've got the skills TBH...
Well, if you want to road register it, you'll need lights!
SVA is now IVA, you can find the manual which lists all the requirements here (in the "M1 manual") http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail...
It costs around 500 quid for the test, plus 90 for every retest, and you should reckon on at least one.
It will certainly be more than a pain than making a track-only car, as you'll need to pass stricter noise and emissions limits, plus need a reverse gear which bike engines don't have. There are now reversing motors available specifically for this though so it shouldn't be a massive problem.
The other stuff which usually worries people, the sharp edges stuff, isn't really of a problem in my experience. A Caterham should go through easily.
Have a check on locostbuilders.co.uk, despite the name that's a good place to go if you're planning anything "off-piste" with any sort of seven type, lots of experience with different engine/chassis combinations on there. There is a caterham forum as well which might have some info but I never go there
SVA is now IVA, you can find the manual which lists all the requirements here (in the "M1 manual") http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail...
It costs around 500 quid for the test, plus 90 for every retest, and you should reckon on at least one.
It will certainly be more than a pain than making a track-only car, as you'll need to pass stricter noise and emissions limits, plus need a reverse gear which bike engines don't have. There are now reversing motors available specifically for this though so it shouldn't be a massive problem.
The other stuff which usually worries people, the sharp edges stuff, isn't really of a problem in my experience. A Caterham should go through easily.
Have a check on locostbuilders.co.uk, despite the name that's a good place to go if you're planning anything "off-piste" with any sort of seven type, lots of experience with different engine/chassis combinations on there. There is a caterham forum as well which might have some info but I never go there
CrutyRammers said:
Well, if you want to road register it, you'll need lights!
SVA is now IVA, you can find the manual which lists all the requirements here (in the "M1 manual") http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail...
It costs around 500 quid for the test, plus 90 for every retest, and you should reckon on at least one.
It will certainly be more than a pain than making a track-only car, as you'll need to pass stricter noise and emissions limits, plus need a reverse gear which bike engines don't have. There are now reversing motors available specifically for this though so it shouldn't be a massive problem.
The other stuff which usually worries people, the sharp edges stuff, isn't really of a problem in my experience. A Caterham should go through easily.
Have a check on locostbuilders.co.uk, despite the name that's a good place to go if you're planning anything "off-piste" with any sort of seven type, lots of experience with different engine/chassis combinations on there. There is a caterham forum as well which might have some info but I never go there
Thanks.SVA is now IVA, you can find the manual which lists all the requirements here (in the "M1 manual") http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail...
It costs around 500 quid for the test, plus 90 for every retest, and you should reckon on at least one.
It will certainly be more than a pain than making a track-only car, as you'll need to pass stricter noise and emissions limits, plus need a reverse gear which bike engines don't have. There are now reversing motors available specifically for this though so it shouldn't be a massive problem.
The other stuff which usually worries people, the sharp edges stuff, isn't really of a problem in my experience. A Caterham should go through easily.
Have a check on locostbuilders.co.uk, despite the name that's a good place to go if you're planning anything "off-piste" with any sort of seven type, lots of experience with different engine/chassis combinations on there. There is a caterham forum as well which might have some info but I never go there
TBH the road registering part is more to help it retain a fair amount of value. It will obviously cost quite a bit to get together, and as a pure track car i'm guessing it won't be worth as much.
Why anyone would want to use a track focused car with a bike engine on the road is beyond me anyway, though it would save having to trailer it to/from tracks.
dapearson said:
Why anyone would want to use a track focused car with a bike engine on the road is beyond me anyway, though it would save having to trailer it to/from tracks.
Because it is bloody good fun and the perfect combination of performance and handling for fun B-road driving :-)robcollingridge said:
dapearson said:
Why anyone would want to use a track focused car with a bike engine on the road is beyond me anyway, though it would save having to trailer it to/from tracks.
Because it is bloody good fun and the perfect combination of performance and handling for fun B-road driving :-)I'm currently doing a 50 mile commute in mine (100 mile round trip) due to my wife needing our other car. It's not ideal, it's noisy, I get cold sometimes, I get wet sometimes, but I always arrive wearing a smile.
mikeveal said:
Why anyone wouldn't want to use a Bike Engined Car on the road is beyond me. Light and nimble, they do not need rock hard suspension to be track focussed. Dial back the dampers to comfortable and you'll have a very very capable road car.
I'm currently doing a 50 mile commute in mine (100 mile round trip) due to my wife needing our other car. It's not ideal, it's noisy, I get cold sometimes, I get wet sometimes, but I always arrive wearing a smile.
In the Malone in your profile?I'm currently doing a 50 mile commute in mine (100 mile round trip) due to my wife needing our other car. It's not ideal, it's noisy, I get cold sometimes, I get wet sometimes, but I always arrive wearing a smile.
I need you to give my wife some convincing
vx220 said:
In the Malone in your profile?
I need you to give my wife some convincing
Yeah. It's not ideal for the A34, but needs must. I usually use the wife's car, but being her car I have to cede.I need you to give my wife some convincing
Not sure I'd be much help convincing your wife of anything. Mrs MikeVeal rarely gets in the Skunk, haven't yet managed to convince her that it's fun.
CrutyRammers said:
mikeveal said:
I'm currently doing a 50 mile commute in mine (100 mile round trip) due to my wife needing our other car. It's not ideal, it's noisy, I get cold sometimes, I get wet sometimes, but I always arrive wearing a smile.
Major PH Man points for that 
robcollingridge said:
dapearson said:
Why anyone would want to use a track focused car with a bike engine on the road is beyond me anyway, though it would save having to trailer it to/from tracks.
Because it is bloody good fun and the perfect combination of performance and handling for fun B-road driving :-)I own an MK Indy with 1400 zzr lump in it... and its Brilliant! The zzr is (with the Hyabusa) one of engines to install if you like cruising around and all out performance in one package, torque a plenty and 3-4sec 0-60.
It orinally had 900cc Fireblade installed..ok but zzr is in a different league.....yeah do it, you wont regret it.
and you dont need a dry sump system (like you do in a 'busa) a billet sump from AB Performance will do the trick
It orinally had 900cc Fireblade installed..ok but zzr is in a different league.....yeah do it, you wont regret it.
and you dont need a dry sump system (like you do in a 'busa) a billet sump from AB Performance will do the trick
As above - do it! I have a ZX12 powered sevenesque car (used to run a Triumph Daytona) and it goes like stink! It has plenty of torque and is very easy to drive on road or track. I have no reverse gear, windscreen, heaters etc, but it just makes every journey such a thrill!
You don't need a dry sump unless you are doing a lot of trackdays, and/or running slicks. I have an Accusump on mine as a half way house. I have done a few trackdays now and have not blown it up yet!
You don't need a dry sump unless you are doing a lot of trackdays, and/or running slicks. I have an Accusump on mine as a half way house. I have done a few trackdays now and have not blown it up yet!
dapearson said:
I have the opportunity to purchase a rolling Caterham Seven chassis.
First question....which chassis ? S3 or SV ? DeDion or Live Axle ?That will make quite a bit of difference to the answers to your questions
The Caterham chassis isn't very big in standard S3 form, so that does present some challenges.
Depending on your engine choice, you may have to remove an upper chassis diagonal. Some bike engines are quite tilted over, and in mine (GSXR1000) the head is very close to the upper chassis rail.
Fitting engine mounts isn't too hard. Arch did mine from the engine cradle. A cradle adds a little weight, but does make it easier to get the engine in and out.
You will almost certainly need a two piece prop. The Caterham tunnel is pretty narrow so fitting a UJ in there isn't easy. But it is perfectly possible if you get a narrow UJ.
Getting everything to fit under the bonnet without cutouts is tricky. Again, lack of room. That is one of the advantages of a Dry Sump, you can lower the engine somewhat. Even so, you *can* turn the TB/Airbox over a little with curved inlets. Or just have it poking up through a hole in the bonnet, which doesn't look all that great and might cause noise problems. Getting cool air into the airbox is another thing again.
In terms of gearing, it will really depend on your diff, and what ratios you have available. I have a live axle, which I had to put a 3.27 final drive in to get a sensible top speed. Have a fiddle around with one of the gearcalc spreadsheets for your engine/tyre/diff choices.
That said, anything above 70mph in a BEC with no windscreen or doors feels like your head is on fire
It sounds like a great project, and most of the Caterham related space issues are sortable I found. Locost Builders is brilliant for the rest.
Edited by PurpleMeanie on Wednesday 10th September 10:36
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