Is It Time For The USA To Halt It's Embargo Of Cuba?

Is It Time For The USA To Halt It's Embargo Of Cuba?

Author
Discussion

dandarez

13,246 posts

282 months

Thursday 18th December 2014
quotequote all
Oh and for those here who crow and crow that the NHS is the envy of the world, here is a little statistic for you.

The infant mortality rate in Cuba is lower than it is in the United States, and is among the lowest in the world.

Even earlier this year the WHO said Cuba was an example for the world in health care.
And having used it I can understand why.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/salim-lamrani/cubas-...







Beati Dogu

8,862 posts

138 months

Thursday 18th December 2014
quotequote all
Yes, because commie dictatorships produce the best and most reliable stats.

Atmospheric

5,305 posts

207 months

Thursday 18th December 2014
quotequote all
Cuba will lose it's soul.

dandarez

13,246 posts

282 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
Beati Dogu said:
Yes, because commie dictatorships produce the best and most reliable stats.
rolleyes
When I said the WHO, what did you think it meant, the bloody rock band?

The World Health Organisation gave the stats!

And Ban Ki-moon - Sec. General of the UN in case you're wondering - says Cuba's ELAM is "the world's most advanced medical school."
He also praised the Cuban doctors working around the world, including those in Haiti:
"They are always the first to arrive and the last to leave. They remain in place after the crises. Cuba can be proud of its health care system, a model for many countries."

AJS-

15,366 posts

235 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
GetCarter
Which part is wrong?
I haven't been to Cuba, but the exit restrictions, the censorship and the political prisoners are every bit as real as the friendly people and the timba.


JagLover
Indeed. I have only the very vaguest idea of why this is. I know right wingers also have their pet dictatorships and they're not generally any better but they tend to be seen (wrongly IMO) as a necessary evil rather than something actually desirable. You don't see students with Giorgos Papadopoulos T shirts.

AJS-

15,366 posts

235 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
dandarez
The life expectancy thing is interesting. If the statistics are to be believed and anything read into them it proves the lack of any link between health spending and life expectancy. If Cuba has a good healthcare system then fine. It doesn't excuse political repression, forced labour and the myriad other abuses the Cuban regime visits on it's population.

I'm all for seeing it for yourself rather than just relying on the news, but there's only so much a holiday there will tell you even if you do get off the beaten track and into the "real" country. Did you try and express any criticism of the Cuban government when you were there? Did you try to earn a living? Or leave to find work in a foreign country?

These things are every bit as real as the friendly and cheerful people you met there.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
AJS- said:
GetCarter
Which part is wrong?
I haven't been to Cuba,
I have. And the poor bds wash up on our beaches half dead when they miss the keys, and we are a long, long way from the keys! God knows how many of them die but 3-4 thousand a year get picked up trying. You're not wrong. Yes they are lovely people but this dewy eyed image of a benevolent socialist utopia is ironic in the extreme when you consider that just to post these thoughts on PH one must first enjoy the freedom to travel there and back, freedom of speech and an internet connection. Luxuries denied all but the 'more equal' Cubans.

JensenA

5,671 posts

229 months

Friday 19th December 2014
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JagLover said:
JensenA said:
I must admit I've always had a soft spot and some admiration for Cuba and Castro, despite being very much anti left wing and anti Socialist in my political outlook. I do think it is ignorant and wrong for people to criticize the country simply because they happen to be on the right if the political spectrum. I'm well aware of its economic problems, but it seems to have survived, the people are looked after from cradle to grave, and whilst they may not be rich, they seem reasonably content.
People criticise Cuba as its people have been impoverished by a regime they did not elect.

So it has a decent health care system?. Many countries poorer than Cuba in 1955 (far poorer in some cases) now have decent health care along with a far greater standard of living.

There seems to be some sort of "noble savage" myth going on here, with people talking about impoverished Cubans being content with their lot without the consumerism of the west. If their life is so enviable why don't you join them.
Oh dear rolleyes

NicD

3,281 posts

256 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
dandarez said:
Oh and for those here who crow and crow that the NHS is the envy of the world, here is a little statistic for you.

The infant mortality rate in Cuba is lower than it is in the United States, and is among the lowest in the world.

Even earlier this year the WHO said Cuba was an example for the world in health care.
And having used it I can understand why.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/salim-lamrani/cubas-...
yes, they have made a great job of healthcare but sadly, would work only in a near dictatorship:

From wiki:
Following the Revolution and the subsequent United States embargo against Cuba, an increase in disease and infant mortality worsened in the 1960s.[2] The new Cuban government asserted that universal healthcare was to become a priority of state planning. In 1960 revolutionary and physician Che Guevara outlined his aims for the future of Cuban healthcare in an essay entitled On Revolutionary Medicine, stating: "The work that today is entrusted to the Ministry of Health and similar organizations is to provide public health services for the greatest possible number of persons, institute a program of preventive medicine, and orient the public to the performance of hygienic practices."[13] These aims were hampered almost immediately by an exodus of almost half of Cuba’s physicians to the United States, leaving the country with only 3,000 doctors and 16 professors in the University of Havana’s medical college.[14] Beginning in 1960, the Ministry of Public Health began a program of nationalization and regionalization of medical services.[14]

In 1976, Cuba's healthcare program was enshrined in Article 50 of the revised Cuban constitution which states "Everyone has the right to health protection and care. The state guarantees this right by providing free medical and hospital care by means of the installations of the rural medical service network, polyclinics, hospitals, preventative and specialized treatment centers; by providing free dental care; by promoting the health publicity campaigns, health education, regular medical examinations, general vaccinations and other measures to prevent the outbreak of disease. All the population cooperates in these activities and plans through the social and mass organizations."[15]

Cuba's doctor to patient ratio grew significantly in the latter half of the 20th century, from 9.2 doctors per 10,000 inhabitants in 1958, to 58.2 per 10,000 in 1999.[16] In the 1960s the government implemented a program of almost universal vaccinations. This helped eradicate many contagious diseases including polio and rubella, though some diseases increased during the period of economic hardship of the 1990s, such as tuberculosis, hepatitis and chicken pox. Other campaigns included a program to reduce the infant mortality rate in 1970 directed at maternal and prenatal care.[16] As of 2012, infant mortality in Cuba had fallen to 4.83 deaths per 1,000 live births compared with 6.0 for the United States and just behind Canada with 4.8.[17]

JagLover

42,266 posts

234 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
AJS- said:
dandarez
The life expectancy thing is interesting. If the statistics are to be believed and anything read into them it proves the lack of any link between health spending and life expectancy. If Cuba has a good healthcare system then fine. It doesn't excuse political repression, forced labour and the myriad other abuses the Cuban regime visits on it's population.

I'm all for seeing it for yourself rather than just relying on the news, but there's only so much a holiday there will tell you even if you do get off the beaten track and into the "real" country. Did you try and express any criticism of the Cuban government when you were there? Did you try to earn a living? Or leave to find work in a foreign country?

These things are every bit as real as the friendly and cheerful people you met there.
I'm sure the healthcare system in Cuba is very good. Pound for pound probably one of the best in the world. But there are many different components to standard of living than just healthcare.




JagLover

42,266 posts

234 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
AJS- said:
JagLover
Indeed. I have only the very vaguest idea of why this is. I know right wingers also have their pet dictatorships and they're not generally any better but they tend to be seen (wrongly IMO) as a necessary evil rather than something actually desirable. You don't see students with Giorgos Papadopoulos T shirts.
Rather bizarre isn't. Most left wingers will spend their time bitterly protesting any infringement of democratic liberties or "ooman rights" in the west whilst simultaneously being fervent cheerleaders for whatever the fashionable left wing dictatorship of the day happens to be.

Reminds me of all those left wingers in the 30s who lauded the superiority of the soviet system at the same time as millions were dying in man made famines and in the gulags.

Tannedbaldhead

2,952 posts

131 months

Friday 19th December 2014
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JagLover said:
wc98 said:
the asset seizures that caused all the trouble were the casinos and brothels owned by the mafia. the fact the embargo has lasted so long shows how engrained the american senate is/was with dirty money from the american criminal fraternity.

i hope this goes well for cuba. fantastic people ,and as far as i know the only place in the world (or was) you can be vaccinated against every type of hepatitis . they have much to offer the world,but the place could change in short order with a large influx of american "businessmen".
What left wing site did you get that from?. By value the most important US assets seized were sugar factories, mines and oil refineries

http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2014/04/18/cuba-y...

If some tin pot dictator grabbed assets owned by British companies and individuals I would hope our government would impose sanctions on them.
They did far more than that. Suez, 1956. Nassar nationalised the canal. Britain and France invaded Egypt to protect their interests. USA sided with USSR to force UK and France to back down and leave canal under the control of Egypt. USA must therefore approve of govts seizing foreign assests within their own borders.

Jimbeaux

33,791 posts

230 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
wc98 said:
LucreLout said:
The USA doesn't feel as though Cuba has honoured all the currency they'd just FXd into dollars, or made reparation for the asset seizures under Fidel.

Cuba still doesn't feel it should have to honour the FX as it views it as being stolen from the Cuban people at the end of the revolutionary take over. Cuba felt compelled to take over refineries because the US wouldn't refine oil for them due to the FX problem, and so it went.

Nothing has changed, so nothing has changed.

I'd love to see the embargo ended for the good of the Cuban people, but I'd also suggest if you have yet to visit Cuba, do so before that happens. The people are fantastic, the country amazing, but it'll change so fast within a year of the embargo ending that it'll be unrecogniseable.
the asset seizures that caused all the trouble were the casinos and brothels owned by the mafia. the fact the embargo has lasted so long shows how engrained the american senate is/was with dirty money from the american criminal fraternity.

i hope this goes well for cuba. fantastic people ,and as far as i know the only place in the world (or was) you can be vaccinated against every type of hepatitis . they have much to offer the world,but the place could change in short order with a large influx of american "businessmen".
You fail to grasp the wealth amassed by the Cuban-American community in Miami over their tenure here. They would be the ones to buy up Cuba....along with other American, Indian, Chinese, etc. businessmen.

Jimbeaux

33,791 posts

230 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
fblm said:
AJS- said:
GetCarter
Which part is wrong?
I haven't been to Cuba,
I have. And the poor bds wash up on our beaches half dead when they miss the keys, and we are a long, long way from the keys! God knows how many of them die but 3-4 thousand a year get picked up trying. You're not wrong. Yes they are lovely people but this dewy eyed image of a benevolent socialist utopia is ironic in the extreme when you consider that just to post these thoughts on PH one must first enjoy the freedom to travel there and back, freedom of speech and an internet connection. Luxuries denied all but the 'more equal' Cubans.
True. In working in Belize on Carribean Regional Conferences, a Cuban translator was contracted. She came to do simaltaneous translation, along with a sound equipment operator. I signed the usual purchase order (for that time period) of $500/day + expenses, for one week. I felt really bad as she was alone in her duties. Every other time I contracted simultaneous TL around the world(former Soviet satellites), they came in teams to relieve one another as it is a mentally and physically tedious chore. I tried to lighten my dialogue to give her some slack. On break, I found out she was being paid $50/day and looking after her own expenses! yikes I explained to her how much we had paid and she was very surprised and angry. She stated she knew she was being ripped off but not to that extent. She noted that just one day of that pay would set her up well. To add salt to the wound, she explained that her less than adequate sound engineer had the additional duty of making sure she returned home. Sad all around. As said, they are a wonderful and hearty people but are fked at every turn by the regime.

Edited by Jimbeaux on Friday 19th December 21:20

Jimbeaux

33,791 posts

230 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
dandarez said:
Beati Dogu said:
Yes, because commie dictatorships produce the best and most reliable stats.
rolleyes
When I said the WHO, what did you think it meant, the bloody rock band?

The World Health Organisation gave the stats!

And Ban Ki-moon - Sec. General of the UN in case you're wondering - says Cuba's ELAM is "the world's most advanced medical school."
He also praised the Cuban doctors working around the world, including those in Haiti:
"They are always the first to arrive and the last to leave. They remain in place after the crises. Cuba can be proud of its health care system, a model for many countries."
And the WHO gets its stats from.....the Cuban dictatorship. As to anything said by Ban Ki Moon.....well, at least you appear impressed. I still wonder why people have to be kept from leaving such a Utopia?

Beati Dogu

8,862 posts

138 months

Saturday 20th December 2014
quotequote all
Is Ban Ki Moon any relation to Keith Moon? wink


I wonder where the smug euro-leftie elite will go to on holiday once Cuba frees itself of the Castros. I doubt they'll want to go on a tour of the mass graves, non-tourist hospitals and all the other trimmings of socialist paradise.

Wherever they go it'll need to be poor, so they can patronise the plucky locals by paying for things in pencils and offering them their old clothes before they leave. North Korea perhaps. I'm sure the regime there would appreciate an influx of useful idiots with more money than sense.

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 20th December 2014
quotequote all
Beati Dogu said:
Is Ban Ki Moon any relation to Keith Moon? wink


I wonder where the smug euro-leftie elite will go to on holiday once Cuba frees itself of the Castros. I doubt they'll want to go on a tour of the mass graves, non-tourist hospitals and all the other trimmings of socialist paradise.

Wherever they go it'll need to be poor, so they can patronise the plucky locals by paying for things in pencils and offering them their old clothes before they leave. North Korea perhaps. I'm sure the regime there would appreciate an influx of useful idiots with more money than sense.
Congratulations, you've just won the prize for the most negative, snivellling, drivel-laden partisan bullst post of the day!

KareemK

Original Poster:

1,110 posts

118 months

Saturday 20th December 2014
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Exactly.

Who exactly are the "smug euro-leftie elite" anyway? I feel I need some names to hang this tag on, just so I'm clear when I watch the news.