Masters Swimming Championships
Discussion
I've been swimming for about 18 months. I started as I was doing Triathlons as a way to lose weight.
I've started to get a bit fed up with Tris though. I constantly get injuries and niggles running and the whole rigmarole of getting the bike ready and trying to not get killed by all the twunts I have to share the roads with his grinding me down.
Anyway I still really enjoy swimming and am getting quite good at that. I'm currently knocking a 400m freestyle out in about 6:15 even though my training has been sporadic over the last year, including 6 weeks off with a shoulder injury.
I was looking at masters swimming contests and I see that the European Championships is in London in 2016 and other than a modest qualifying criteria its basically open to anyone. Looking at some results of other meets it looks like I would need to be circa 60 secs on 100m and around the 4:30 mark for 400m to be in the mix. I don't want to turn up and come last, if I am going to do it I want to make the best effort and be FOP/MOP
Do you think it is achievable to be at that level in 2 years from where I am now? Currently I am doing 3-4 sessions per week covering 2.3-2.7 km per session, plus 2-3 dry land sessions. If I drop the other training I can up the swim sessions to at least 5, maybe 6.
Anyone else competing in masters events? My coach has a club which I cam going to go to although I think its more focused on triathletes than club swimming but I am sure I can find some others interested there who might compete.
Any other tips?
I've started to get a bit fed up with Tris though. I constantly get injuries and niggles running and the whole rigmarole of getting the bike ready and trying to not get killed by all the twunts I have to share the roads with his grinding me down.
Anyway I still really enjoy swimming and am getting quite good at that. I'm currently knocking a 400m freestyle out in about 6:15 even though my training has been sporadic over the last year, including 6 weeks off with a shoulder injury.
I was looking at masters swimming contests and I see that the European Championships is in London in 2016 and other than a modest qualifying criteria its basically open to anyone. Looking at some results of other meets it looks like I would need to be circa 60 secs on 100m and around the 4:30 mark for 400m to be in the mix. I don't want to turn up and come last, if I am going to do it I want to make the best effort and be FOP/MOP
Do you think it is achievable to be at that level in 2 years from where I am now? Currently I am doing 3-4 sessions per week covering 2.3-2.7 km per session, plus 2-3 dry land sessions. If I drop the other training I can up the swim sessions to at least 5, maybe 6.
Anyone else competing in masters events? My coach has a club which I cam going to go to although I think its more focused on triathletes than club swimming but I am sure I can find some others interested there who might compete.
Any other tips?
Hi there,
I swim in Masters competitions and have done for about the past five years or so. If I'm fit I can usually get a couple of medals in my age group at National Masters, but for a few reasons I've not done so much training over the past couple of years, so the best I got at Nationals last year was a fifth. Just about to become a father, so I think competing will be taking a back seat for a couple of years at least until I'm 40.
I'm on my phone at the moment so will type a longer reply later, but three questions:
How old are you?
Have you swam competitively for clubs in the past, even as a child?
How are your strokes other than freestyle?
I swim in Masters competitions and have done for about the past five years or so. If I'm fit I can usually get a couple of medals in my age group at National Masters, but for a few reasons I've not done so much training over the past couple of years, so the best I got at Nationals last year was a fifth. Just about to become a father, so I think competing will be taking a back seat for a couple of years at least until I'm 40.
I'm on my phone at the moment so will type a longer reply later, but three questions:
How old are you?
Have you swam competitively for clubs in the past, even as a child?
How are your strokes other than freestyle?
Edited by Highway Star on Saturday 23 August 13:23
Hello. Thanks for the response, answer to your questions below.
I'm based in Milton Keynes. I've had coaching with a great chap who does triathlon coaching and used to compete internationally in swimming. He has a swim squad which I am going to join but its not really a masters club as its more for Triathletes.
Highway Star said:
How old are you?
34Highway Star said:
Have you swam competitively for clubs in the past, even as a child?
Nope, literally only took it up last year. Couldn't swim two lengths when I started. Highway Star said:
How are your strokes other than freestyle?
Not great. Backstroke is ok and breast stroke passable. Butterfly - forget it. I've only really focused on free. Interesting in improving the the other strokes, particularly back as that's probably my next best stroke.I'm based in Milton Keynes. I've had coaching with a great chap who does triathlon coaching and used to compete internationally in swimming. He has a swim squad which I am going to join but its not really a masters club as its more for Triathletes.
Hi 944,
There are a few other swimmers/ex swimmers on here - otispunkmeyer is one - who might have views, but here are my honest ones - I must stress I'm just being honest, but may well be wrong! Firstly - going from a couple of lengths to 6.15 for 400 in a couple of years is fantastic. Joining a good Masters club where you can get good technique development is definitely what you should do. Your tri coach might be able to help too, and will provide you with his views.
Personally, I feel that knocking your time for 400 from 6.15 to 4.30 in two years is a big, big ask, especially as you've no past competitive swimming experience. It might not sound a lot in terms of absolute time, but a 4.30 400 swimmer will be lapping a 6.15 swimmer two or possibly three times in a 400 in a 25m pool. A 4.30 is four back to back 100s of 1.07.5, which means you'll have to be comfortably multiple repping around 1.10s in training - maybe 15 back to back with only 15 seconds or so rest between each one.
You will undoubtedly improve your time from swimming more and especially if you can improve your technique, but after a while you will plateau, it is a case of diminishing returns, especially in your 30s. 4.30 for 400 is extremely competitive in Masters competitions and the difference between a 4.30 and a 5 minute swimmer is a very big one Making the jump from a 6 minute 400 swimmer to a 4.30 swimmer is not a jump that I see many making in Masters, unless they've been a serious swimmer in the past and just need to 're-find' the race fitness.
I think that previous swimming experience as a child makes a big difference; there aren't any guys I compete who spring to mind that did not compete to a minimum of club standard when younger - it makes a big difference in learning technique and getting the right body position to swim properly fast.
For some context, I was a National finalist and regional champion as a kid, gave up at 15 and then started again at 30. My best as a child for 400 free was around 4.15, it was one of my better events (I can't sprint). When I started training again, I was seriously out of shape and could probably manage about 5.30. I joined my local Masters squad, which fortunately is one of the best in the country, and after 2 years I did a 400 in a race - I went 4.50. It took another 18 months, training around 4 times a week, probably 16-20k a week, and I went a 4.36, most of my other 400s have been around 4.40-4.45.
At our age, we are also fighting Father Time, especially in competitive distance events. I seriously doubt that even if I hit training really hard again at 40 that I'd ever be able to get sub 4.40. A couple of club mates, one is 38 and the best in the UK, would have won the recent Worlds if he'd gone to Canada, is doing the same training as ever, but has got 5 seconds slower over the past two years. Another is nearly 50, trains probably 8-9 times a week, has been down near 4.10 as a younger man and I beat him at the 400 at Nationals last year. They were at a meet a couple of weeks ago and Paul Palmer, Olympic silver medallist from Atlanta in the 400, was there competing, now at 40. He 'only' went 4.22 - his best would have been sub-3.45. It gets really hard to drop time past a certain level as you get older, sadly!
At 30-34 age, or 35-39, which is my age group currently, 60 seconds for 100 free is very respectable for most meets and will probably be 50-66% down the list for those who go to the Nationals - I remember about three years ago, my goggles fell off diving in at Nationals in the 100 free, I went 61 and came 18th. The top guys in this age will be doing 52-56 seconds and that is a big difference. Arguably 60 for 100 is easier than 4.30 for 400 IMO - I've seen relatively new swimmers (if they learn good technique and are seriously powerful), or older experienced swimmers go 60, but they are still doing 5 minutes + for the 400 as its a totally different event.
As you mention, the Euros' entry standards are relatively low, much of Masters swimming is rightly about encouraging participation and 'life long swimming'. Masters meets in the UK, even the Nationals, don't have entry times. But you will need to be a member of an ASA registered competitive club and be a category 2 registered swimmer with the ASA. Some tri clubs are ASA registered, some aren't.
My advice would be:
Speak to your coach at the tri club, explain your aims and ask what he thinks would benefit you.
Contact your local Masters swimming clubs and do a couple of trial sessions with them. There will be a mix of strokes and some will no doubt be medley swimming (all four strokes), but most coaches overlook the fact that some people don't/can't swim a lot of fly. Many older swimmers can no longer swim fly anyway! I sincerely believe that improving your other strokes will also benefit your freestyle, strengthening and toning your muscles, it will also make training a lot more bearable and leave you less likely to get injured. It's also fun to go to meets and do events other than freestyle!
If you can't already, learn to tumble turn and really learn good turn technique and how to maximise your underwater pushes and streamlining. It'll be the easiest way to drop time.
Up your training steadily to at least 3 or 4 sessions a week. If you are using a wetsuit - ditch it; you'll need to develop the technique and body position without it.
Enjoy it, don't put pressure on yourself to hit specific times and enter a couple of Masters meets. They are generally very low key and friendly events - at your current times you'll find plenty of competition and the races are organised by time, not age (you just get classified by age at the end).
A club mate of mine has just moved to MK - she has joined South Beds Masters who I think train in Luton and Dunstable (?). They have a good website and are a good and specifically Masters club so will hopefully give you the technique training and have good squad sizes. City of Milton Keynes don't have a proper Masters section, so I don't think it'll give you what you'll need - a couple of guys I know who live in MK train on their own, though they represent CMK in competitions.
I hope this helps and I don't mean to come across as negative - you will drop time and be competitive at Masters meets. If you need anything else, feel free to mail me through my profile. Best of luck!
There are a few other swimmers/ex swimmers on here - otispunkmeyer is one - who might have views, but here are my honest ones - I must stress I'm just being honest, but may well be wrong! Firstly - going from a couple of lengths to 6.15 for 400 in a couple of years is fantastic. Joining a good Masters club where you can get good technique development is definitely what you should do. Your tri coach might be able to help too, and will provide you with his views.
Personally, I feel that knocking your time for 400 from 6.15 to 4.30 in two years is a big, big ask, especially as you've no past competitive swimming experience. It might not sound a lot in terms of absolute time, but a 4.30 400 swimmer will be lapping a 6.15 swimmer two or possibly three times in a 400 in a 25m pool. A 4.30 is four back to back 100s of 1.07.5, which means you'll have to be comfortably multiple repping around 1.10s in training - maybe 15 back to back with only 15 seconds or so rest between each one.
You will undoubtedly improve your time from swimming more and especially if you can improve your technique, but after a while you will plateau, it is a case of diminishing returns, especially in your 30s. 4.30 for 400 is extremely competitive in Masters competitions and the difference between a 4.30 and a 5 minute swimmer is a very big one Making the jump from a 6 minute 400 swimmer to a 4.30 swimmer is not a jump that I see many making in Masters, unless they've been a serious swimmer in the past and just need to 're-find' the race fitness.
I think that previous swimming experience as a child makes a big difference; there aren't any guys I compete who spring to mind that did not compete to a minimum of club standard when younger - it makes a big difference in learning technique and getting the right body position to swim properly fast.
For some context, I was a National finalist and regional champion as a kid, gave up at 15 and then started again at 30. My best as a child for 400 free was around 4.15, it was one of my better events (I can't sprint). When I started training again, I was seriously out of shape and could probably manage about 5.30. I joined my local Masters squad, which fortunately is one of the best in the country, and after 2 years I did a 400 in a race - I went 4.50. It took another 18 months, training around 4 times a week, probably 16-20k a week, and I went a 4.36, most of my other 400s have been around 4.40-4.45.
At our age, we are also fighting Father Time, especially in competitive distance events. I seriously doubt that even if I hit training really hard again at 40 that I'd ever be able to get sub 4.40. A couple of club mates, one is 38 and the best in the UK, would have won the recent Worlds if he'd gone to Canada, is doing the same training as ever, but has got 5 seconds slower over the past two years. Another is nearly 50, trains probably 8-9 times a week, has been down near 4.10 as a younger man and I beat him at the 400 at Nationals last year. They were at a meet a couple of weeks ago and Paul Palmer, Olympic silver medallist from Atlanta in the 400, was there competing, now at 40. He 'only' went 4.22 - his best would have been sub-3.45. It gets really hard to drop time past a certain level as you get older, sadly!
At 30-34 age, or 35-39, which is my age group currently, 60 seconds for 100 free is very respectable for most meets and will probably be 50-66% down the list for those who go to the Nationals - I remember about three years ago, my goggles fell off diving in at Nationals in the 100 free, I went 61 and came 18th. The top guys in this age will be doing 52-56 seconds and that is a big difference. Arguably 60 for 100 is easier than 4.30 for 400 IMO - I've seen relatively new swimmers (if they learn good technique and are seriously powerful), or older experienced swimmers go 60, but they are still doing 5 minutes + for the 400 as its a totally different event.
As you mention, the Euros' entry standards are relatively low, much of Masters swimming is rightly about encouraging participation and 'life long swimming'. Masters meets in the UK, even the Nationals, don't have entry times. But you will need to be a member of an ASA registered competitive club and be a category 2 registered swimmer with the ASA. Some tri clubs are ASA registered, some aren't.
My advice would be:
Speak to your coach at the tri club, explain your aims and ask what he thinks would benefit you.
Contact your local Masters swimming clubs and do a couple of trial sessions with them. There will be a mix of strokes and some will no doubt be medley swimming (all four strokes), but most coaches overlook the fact that some people don't/can't swim a lot of fly. Many older swimmers can no longer swim fly anyway! I sincerely believe that improving your other strokes will also benefit your freestyle, strengthening and toning your muscles, it will also make training a lot more bearable and leave you less likely to get injured. It's also fun to go to meets and do events other than freestyle!
If you can't already, learn to tumble turn and really learn good turn technique and how to maximise your underwater pushes and streamlining. It'll be the easiest way to drop time.
Up your training steadily to at least 3 or 4 sessions a week. If you are using a wetsuit - ditch it; you'll need to develop the technique and body position without it.
Enjoy it, don't put pressure on yourself to hit specific times and enter a couple of Masters meets. They are generally very low key and friendly events - at your current times you'll find plenty of competition and the races are organised by time, not age (you just get classified by age at the end).
A club mate of mine has just moved to MK - she has joined South Beds Masters who I think train in Luton and Dunstable (?). They have a good website and are a good and specifically Masters club so will hopefully give you the technique training and have good squad sizes. City of Milton Keynes don't have a proper Masters section, so I don't think it'll give you what you'll need - a couple of guys I know who live in MK train on their own, though they represent CMK in competitions.
I hope this helps and I don't mean to come across as negative - you will drop time and be competitive at Masters meets. If you need anything else, feel free to mail me through my profile. Best of luck!
Edited by Highway Star on Saturday 23 August 21:53
Thanks for the detailed response, really appreciate it.
I didn't realise the races were organised by time instead of age group. That kind of changes everything really. I was thinking I need to drop to 4:30 to be competing in my age group but as that is not the case then I don't really need to worry where I'm at.
I have regular 1-2-1 sessions with the coach and he does stroke analysis and builds in a lot of drills etc to work on my technique. I think alot of the gains I have made over the last 18 months are down to improving technique. Joining the club will give me more regular advice.
I only ever wear a wetsuit when swimming open water. I haven't bothered with tumble turns as yet, partly because I was doing OW/Tri races but also I had set myself a target of dropping below 6 min by the end of the year and didn't want to "cheat" by taking seconds off from turns. Need to learn how to dive as well.
I think I have some natural affinity for swimming. I'm 6'5'' with 6'8'' arm span and have good upper body strength.
Will up the training and see how I get on will try some clubs and events. Be interesting to get some coach advice on what event to go for. Would I be better at sprinting or the distance events. I like the 400 free because it is a good mix of speed and endurance.
I didn't realise the races were organised by time instead of age group. That kind of changes everything really. I was thinking I need to drop to 4:30 to be competing in my age group but as that is not the case then I don't really need to worry where I'm at.
I have regular 1-2-1 sessions with the coach and he does stroke analysis and builds in a lot of drills etc to work on my technique. I think alot of the gains I have made over the last 18 months are down to improving technique. Joining the club will give me more regular advice.
I only ever wear a wetsuit when swimming open water. I haven't bothered with tumble turns as yet, partly because I was doing OW/Tri races but also I had set myself a target of dropping below 6 min by the end of the year and didn't want to "cheat" by taking seconds off from turns. Need to learn how to dive as well.
I think I have some natural affinity for swimming. I'm 6'5'' with 6'8'' arm span and have good upper body strength.
Will up the training and see how I get on will try some clubs and events. Be interesting to get some coach advice on what event to go for. Would I be better at sprinting or the distance events. I like the 400 free because it is a good mix of speed and endurance.
No problems - all Masters events run on times - every race you'll be in will be competitive. The only exception is the 50m races at Nationals, which are run in age groups, just due to the sheer number of swimmers in those events.
The Euros in London will be absolutely rammed - personally I think LEN will have tighten the entry standards as past events in less popular destinations like Riccione in Italy and Yalta in the Ukraine have run way over time. The ease of flights, availability of accommodation and the fact its in the Olympic pool will swell the overseas field and being in the UK, everyone who does the Nationals will go, this is around 800 swimmers, rather than the 50 or so GB Masters who always make the trip to overseas championships. It should be awesome.
In our area, the meets that are run at Barnet are very good, I know Luton run one too and the Midlands are in Leamington in April (terrible pool). Nationals short course (25m pool) are in Sheffield in October and well worth going to, and the GB long course (50m pool) are in May/June time and tend to rotate around - this year they were in Swansea.
With your size, you'd be a perfect sprinter. I'm quite big for a middle distance swimmer and am smaller than you (6'2'' tall and 6'6'' armspan). If you retain your power and technique with a high turnover and good starts and turns, you'll have a good chance in a sprint. Another thing is if you join a decent sized club, you'll get relay swims at meets too.
Oh - when assessing clubs, do really press the coach on the amount of technique coaching given - it does tend to be very variable, partly due to the coach themselves and often partly due to old fart swimmers who think they know it all already and aren't 'open' to coaching!
The Euros in London will be absolutely rammed - personally I think LEN will have tighten the entry standards as past events in less popular destinations like Riccione in Italy and Yalta in the Ukraine have run way over time. The ease of flights, availability of accommodation and the fact its in the Olympic pool will swell the overseas field and being in the UK, everyone who does the Nationals will go, this is around 800 swimmers, rather than the 50 or so GB Masters who always make the trip to overseas championships. It should be awesome.
In our area, the meets that are run at Barnet are very good, I know Luton run one too and the Midlands are in Leamington in April (terrible pool). Nationals short course (25m pool) are in Sheffield in October and well worth going to, and the GB long course (50m pool) are in May/June time and tend to rotate around - this year they were in Swansea.
With your size, you'd be a perfect sprinter. I'm quite big for a middle distance swimmer and am smaller than you (6'2'' tall and 6'6'' armspan). If you retain your power and technique with a high turnover and good starts and turns, you'll have a good chance in a sprint. Another thing is if you join a decent sized club, you'll get relay swims at meets too.
Oh - when assessing clubs, do really press the coach on the amount of technique coaching given - it does tend to be very variable, partly due to the coach themselves and often partly due to old fart swimmers who think they know it all already and aren't 'open' to coaching!
Edited by Highway Star on Sunday 24th August 14:20
Yes, it has been brilliant. Some of the fields are slightly off the pace as in the Commies, but some events are top quality and some of our up an coming swimmers look the real deal. Extremely impressed with Peaty and Murdoch. Finally Barratt looks like a good quality flyer and if Proud can stick a decent second 50 on his first, we'll have a medley relay to challenge the best as Walker-Hebborn is developing well on the backstroke leg. They all seem to be racing better than a few years ago.
Also some of the Euro swimmers look very good. Manaudou is more of a beast than he was, Sarah Sjoestroem is coming of age, Hosszu is quality (though she would have been pushed by Siobhan O'Connor if she was there) and the Italian lad in the 1500 was great.
Have you seen the results from the PanPacs? Katie Ledecky is rewriting the record books in women's distance free.
Also some of the Euro swimmers look very good. Manaudou is more of a beast than he was, Sarah Sjoestroem is coming of age, Hosszu is quality (though she would have been pushed by Siobhan O'Connor if she was there) and the Italian lad in the 1500 was great.
Have you seen the results from the PanPacs? Katie Ledecky is rewriting the record books in women's distance free.
KL is going to be a serious legend. She is silly quick.
As the English MR boys beat the Aussies in the CW games then Id say we are already putting a serious team together. Not just that but getting them to peak twice in quick succession for major meets is very impressive by the coaching and conditioning team. Speaking of which..Belmonte. Hardcore!
As the English MR boys beat the Aussies in the CW games then Id say we are already putting a serious team together. Not just that but getting them to peak twice in quick succession for major meets is very impressive by the coaching and conditioning team. Speaking of which..Belmonte. Hardcore!
DJRC said:
As the English MR boys beat the Aussies in the CW games then Id say we are already putting a serious team together.
I don't really rate some of the Aussies at the moment, their back and breast swimmers aren't great. But, you're right - just looked at the Pan Pac results for the men's medley relay, the US team went 3.29.9, our lads only just over a second behind at the Euros and would have beaten Japan (Aus came third). Probably number 2 in the world then at the moment, unless China dig out some 'new finds'. From where we used to be, that's a light years improvement.
king monster Had my first squad session this week. Was tough but I enjoyed it. Some really fast swimmers there and hopefully soon I'll be in the fastest Lane trying to keep up.
Or coach who swam competitively in his youth and who is younger than me only clocks a 4:36 400m so you were so right that if will be a struggle for me to reach that. Hoping for a sub 6 by the end of the year and go from there.
Or coach who swam competitively in his youth and who is younger than me only clocks a 4:36 400m so you were so right that if will be a struggle for me to reach that. Hoping for a sub 6 by the end of the year and go from there.
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