Ferrari wants F1 engine freeze lifted to improve competition
Discussion
According to Autosport anyway.
Ferrari wants F1 engine freeze lifted to close up competitive order
The Ferrari Formula 1 team wants rules that prevent engine manufacturers tweaking their designs during the season relaxed in order to help close up the competitive order.
Ferrari and Renault have built engines down on power compared to the leading Mercedes unit under F1's new turbocharged V6 hybrid regulations introduced for this year.
The rules permit alterations to engine mapping and software, but forbid manufacturers from changing mechanical parts on their units unless they make a special request to make alterations for reasons of reliability, safety or cost.
Team principal Marco Mattiacci told reporters after the recent Belgian Grand Prix, where Kimi Raikkonen finished fourth but complained of a lack of straightline speed, that F1 should be less restrictive in its engine regulations.
I have to say that I actually agree with Ferrari (rather surprisingly). I've always thought that the new engine regulations of "get it right first time, and then that's it - no tweaking allowed" was somewhat unreasoable.
One of the things that geeks like me enjoy about F1 is the evolution and continuous improvement. The forward march of technology and all that.
You could argue that the engine freeze is a cost-cutting measure, but in all honesty the best way of cutting costs (realistically and actually, rather than pandering to the greens with hybrids and *being seen* to be cutting costs rather than *actually* cutting costs) would have been to freeze the very well-developed V8s.
Anyway, given we have gone to the enormous R&D expense of creating these new hybrid power units it seems rather stupid not to allow the engine manufacturers to hone them and get them right before freezing their development.
Ferrari wants F1 engine freeze lifted to close up competitive order
The Ferrari Formula 1 team wants rules that prevent engine manufacturers tweaking their designs during the season relaxed in order to help close up the competitive order.
Ferrari and Renault have built engines down on power compared to the leading Mercedes unit under F1's new turbocharged V6 hybrid regulations introduced for this year.
The rules permit alterations to engine mapping and software, but forbid manufacturers from changing mechanical parts on their units unless they make a special request to make alterations for reasons of reliability, safety or cost.
Team principal Marco Mattiacci told reporters after the recent Belgian Grand Prix, where Kimi Raikkonen finished fourth but complained of a lack of straightline speed, that F1 should be less restrictive in its engine regulations.
I have to say that I actually agree with Ferrari (rather surprisingly). I've always thought that the new engine regulations of "get it right first time, and then that's it - no tweaking allowed" was somewhat unreasoable.
One of the things that geeks like me enjoy about F1 is the evolution and continuous improvement. The forward march of technology and all that.
You could argue that the engine freeze is a cost-cutting measure, but in all honesty the best way of cutting costs (realistically and actually, rather than pandering to the greens with hybrids and *being seen* to be cutting costs rather than *actually* cutting costs) would have been to freeze the very well-developed V8s.
Anyway, given we have gone to the enormous R&D expense of creating these new hybrid power units it seems rather stupid not to allow the engine manufacturers to hone them and get them right before freezing their development.
Given the onboard shots we see of the car they need to spend more time on chassis/aero than engine, it looks bloody horrific at times.
If nothing happens (and I don't expect it will) expect to hear some rants from Montezemolo, everything from veiled threats to leave F1 to how crap everything is to how many TVs he's chucked out the window this year.
If nothing happens (and I don't expect it will) expect to hear some rants from Montezemolo, everything from veiled threats to leave F1 to how crap everything is to how many TVs he's chucked out the window this year.
There should either be no restrictions in improving the design and build of engines within the specs, or there ought to be a proper equalisation programme that achieves said equalisation.
The former would cost more than the latter, but would achieve better technological progress, more quickly.
What we have now is a half way house that guarantees disadvantage for a whole season. It is likely that given the regs and the diminishing areas that can be changed in each successive year, that eventually there will be near-parity. But it will take years. It's entirely down to the ill conceived and implemented cost saving measures that haven't worked either.
The end of the season will be a bit of a joke as the power unit numbers are broken by several teams.
These units are completely new ground. It's quite surprising that they are as closely matched as they actually are.
The former would cost more than the latter, but would achieve better technological progress, more quickly.
What we have now is a half way house that guarantees disadvantage for a whole season. It is likely that given the regs and the diminishing areas that can be changed in each successive year, that eventually there will be near-parity. But it will take years. It's entirely down to the ill conceived and implemented cost saving measures that haven't worked either.
The end of the season will be a bit of a joke as the power unit numbers are broken by several teams.
These units are completely new ground. It's quite surprising that they are as closely matched as they actually are.
Jasandjules said:
Well, they knew the rules before this season didn't they? So they had the opportunity and resources to sort their engine out.
That wasn't my point. My point was that I agree that teams (as in all teams, not just Ferrari) should have a little more latitude for evolution than this season's rules of "get it right first time and no second chances". Of course Ferrari knew the rules before the season started - all the teams did - but that's hardly the point.
JonRB said:
That wasn't my point. My point was that I agree that teams (as in all teams, not just Ferrari) should have a little more latitude for evolution than this season's rules of "get it right first time and no second chances".
In some respects I agree but there is the idea of this being the pinnacle. I also was expecting a lot more car reliability issues which would have spiced up the season (I suspect I am not alone in that). So they have all done rather well. Now, teams will always want to do better, but if we are trying to ensure a more even playing field (yes, I know the reality is different with some teams have many times the budget of other teams) then this is one way to do so exactly to prevent the richer teams being able to improve dramatically over the poorer teams.We have not seen the penalties as of yet for a team exceeding the '5' limit for any given power train component, which most of them must be approaching,which will be interesting......as to no in season development of the power train, they the teams all agreed on this, you make your bed......
IainT said:
Are they assuming that Merc would not use such a relaxation of the ban to improve their engine further?
Almost certainly not. I think it's more a case of voicing the opinion that the engines should be allowed to evolve and stabilise over the course of the season, rather than the rather artificial situation we have this season where Merc got it more right than Ferrari and Renault on the initial design, and now the latter two are pretty much buggered (or, at least, severely limited) for the rest of the season. JonRB said:
Almost certainly not. I think it's more a case of voicing the opinion that the engines should be allowed to evolve and stabilise over the course of the season, rather than the rather artificial situation we have this season where Merc got it more right than Ferrari and Renault on the initial design, and now the latter two are pretty much buggered (or, at least, severely limited) for the rest of the season.
kind of ironic when it was Renault pushing so hard for these new engines, then did a real crap job on it.they knew the rules, left it way too late and have shot themselves in the foot.
ash73 said:
Instead of lifting the freeze get rid of it completely, and while they are at it ditch parc fermé after quali, it's pointless.
No it isn't.The engine freeze is to stop the teams spending a medium sized country's GDP on engine development, we'll leave aside the argument of whether they should have changed engine regulations at all for this conversation.
And parc fermé is top stop the teams building qualifying cars, as in a car dedicated to qualifying with lightweight suspension, brakes, gearboxes, trick engines, etc and then rebuilding it into a race car after qualifying.
Qualifying cars added nothing to the sport, apart from a very large R&D bill. As an aside, notice how much more reliable the cars are since the FIA stop them taking the damn things apart after every session...
Megaflow said:
As an aside, notice how much more reliable the cars are since the FIA stop them taking the damn things apart after every session...
err... no.what happened is the teams had to get much more regimented about lifeing components, so what happens is pretty much everything is changed ahead of qualifying, the engines used in testing are swapped out for the 'race' engine (so as not to put miles on the race engines) etc etc.
they certainly go no cheaper because of this.
Lost soul said:
Leithen said:
These units are completely new ground. It's quite surprising that they are as closely matched as they actually are.
Considering the limited amount of testing allowed it is nothing short of incredible how close they are the IC engines may be, but the ES and MGU-K/H performance are nowhere near.
I think the best thing about the quali-race setup is that it paved the way for the curfew regulations and it gives the mechanics an overnight rest before race day. There's a human part to this too, it's not just money.
The entire race they are driving with a compromised setup given that weather, the track, fuel levels and tyre types change far more than qualifying.
ash73 said:
I don't agree, nothing wrong with quali specials; it's less fun watching a car with a compromised setup not going as fast as it could.
How on Earth do you know when they're driving with a compromised setup? I think the idea of a compromised setup being less enjoyable is more of an idea in your mind rather than something you can really recognise on TV.The entire race they are driving with a compromised setup given that weather, the track, fuel levels and tyre types change far more than qualifying.
If the point of hybrid engines with energy recovery was to drive development in these areas and improve the profile of F1 to an environmentally-conscious world, it would have made sense to leave scope for in-season development in the key hybrid components such as MGU-K/H and ES while freezing the ICE and TC...
Mercedes have done a fantastic job and developed an engine that's better than the competition (still sounds s
t but that's another story), but should Williams, Force India and McLaren* continue to have an advantage over Red Bull, Ferrari etc just because of their engine supplier? I'm no fan of Red Bull but I don't want to see them handicapped by something that's outside their control, nor do I want to see the Mercedes engined teams have a locked in competitive advantage over the rest of the field. Although what I'd really like to see is these poxy hybrids scrapped and the return of proper high capacity, high revving, NA race engines.
t but that's another story), but should Williams, Force India and McLaren* continue to have an advantage over Red Bull, Ferrari etc just because of their engine supplier? I'm no fan of Red Bull but I don't want to see them handicapped by something that's outside their control, nor do I want to see the Mercedes engined teams have a locked in competitive advantage over the rest of the field. Although what I'd really like to see is these poxy hybrids scrapped and the return of proper high capacity, high revving, NA race engines.- If McLaren had a Renault engine I think they'd be battling with Marussia and Caterham at the back of the pack, they're hardly impressing with the best engine available.
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