HSE in my workshop?

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226bhp

Original Poster:

10,203 posts

127 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
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There is only me who works there, can the HSE come in (they have no reason to, no complaints, no accidents) inspect and make me comply with HSE regs?

I'm not dangerous, but save money by looking after my own equipment rather than pay someone to officially certificate it, there may be a fire extinguisher slightly overdue a check and things like that.

The obvious thing to say is that I can only damage myself in the event of an accident so they would have no right, but I'm not sure and read otherwise. Anyone any ideas?

Nigel Worc's

8,121 posts

187 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
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I hope not, most sole traders rely on not having to comply with everything, just be safe.

TheRainMaker

6,302 posts

241 months

Thursday 28th August 2014
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What needs a certificate?

papa3

1,407 posts

186 months

Thursday 28th August 2014
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The HSE have rights of entry into premises under certain circumstances, in your circumstances they would be unlikely to do so. If they were aware that you were not complying with legislation, or were not adequately managing risk in your business then they can enter and issue notices requiring you to comply.

We used to get a lot of private companies appearing on site who identified themselves as "HSE" or "I'm from health and safety", wander around the site then present a list of recommendations that they were willing to fix for a fee. As soon as we picked up on it they were out on their arse's.

226bhp

Original Poster:

10,203 posts

127 months

Thursday 28th August 2014
quotequote all
I'm talking about the real thing here, The HSE not other types of companies and it's not a building site nor do I have employees.
Certificates such as ones for power tool safety checks etc. I was pondering over getting a vehicle lift and know that 'officially' it will need inspections and certificates, but the thing is I can't afford a lot of this at the moment as it's early stages, if my small workshop becomes more successful i'll add more and more safety related items such as steel cupboards to put cans of paint in and the like.
A casual observer might say a two post lift without a cert is dangerous, but i've worked on these things most of my life so know what is what, how to set them up and work safely on them, I don't need to pay someone who probably knows less than I do!

The question came about as I've got a small unit in a group of similar, one of my neighbours is causing concerns to the others as he's painting cars. Problem is he's not very bright and doesn't (and won't) keep himself to himself, the filler dust and paint are getting into others units, the owner of one isn't too happy so has threatened to get the HSE involved to either make him comply or get him out.
The other small business owners are worried about the wider implications of HSE arriving and deciding to check out their units too, would that be the case?

As I see it it's their business what they do in their own workshops, (apart from the one) they work mainly on their own, and don't bother anyone else, but I know if they get inspected too there will be wider implications. I don't know how the HSE work and was wondering if anyone did, if they are called to one business will they bother the others?

My other question is how far do the Landlords have to go when renting out units? There is very little in the way of correct fireproofing or H&S items provided by him, but as they've got a lot of sites and have been doing it a long time presume they knows what they're doing. Is it the tenants job to make the place safe?

PurpleMoonlight

22,362 posts

156 months

Thursday 28th August 2014
quotequote all
I would doubt the HSE would pay any attention to the other units.

I would say your main issue is not safety to yourself, but safety to the general public visiting your premesis. You mention a vehicle lift so I assume you are involved in car repairs.

At the very least you need to ensure you have adequate fire fighting equipment and there are no obvious dangers to the public (eg oil spills on the floor). You should have public liability insurance too.

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Thursday 28th August 2014
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So, lemme get this straight...

There's a number of small workshops.
One is being very lax, and causing problems for the others.
The others are also being lax - to a greater or lesser extent - but don't want to get their own houses in order.

Mr Taxpayer

438 posts

119 months

Thursday 28th August 2014
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You have to conduct risk assessments for all activities you undertake; however if you employ 5 people or less you do not have to record them. Your lack of certification for various things things may affect your ability to claim against your insurer in the event of an accident, but is unlikely to attract the attention of the HSE. E.g. your compressor catches fire but you are unable to extinguish the fire because you fire extinguisher is faulty and your workshop burns down. The insurer is likely to take a dim view of this.

Your noisy, dusty, possibly chemical emitting neighbour sounds like he's a statutory nuisance. The Health & Safety At Work Act Section 5 is titled "General duties of persons in control of certain premises in relation to harmful emissions into atmosphere". A phonecall to your local Environmental Health Officer (part of the council) would be the best way to address this. If they feel that he is causing a nuisance they may hit him with an Improvement Notice or if it really bad, a Prohibition Notice that effectively shuts him down until improvements have been made.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1974/37

226bhp

Original Poster:

10,203 posts

127 months

Thursday 28th August 2014
quotequote all
Mr Taxpayer said:
You have to conduct risk assessments for all activities you undertake; however if you employ 5 people or less you do not have to record them. Your lack of certification for various things things may affect your ability to claim against your insurer in the event of an accident, but is unlikely to attract the attention of the HSE. E.g. your compressor catches fire but you are unable to extinguish the fire because you fire extinguisher is faulty and your workshop burns down. The insurer is likely to take a dim view of this.

Your noisy, dusty, possibly chemical emitting neighbour sounds like he's a statutory nuisance. The Health & Safety At Work Act Section 5 is titled "General duties of persons in control of certain premises in relation to harmful emissions into atmosphere". A phonecall to your local Environmental Health Officer (part of the council) would be the best way to address this. If they feel that he is causing a nuisance they may hit him with an Improvement Notice or if it really bad, a Prohibition Notice that effectively shuts him down until improvements have been made.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1974/37
Thankyou for your post, i'll follow up the links. The Council EHO have already been called and aren't interested as it's outside of what they deal with, 'Industrial' I think and unconnected to the general public like a high street shop for instance, they advised HSE.

Magog

2,652 posts

188 months

Thursday 28th August 2014
quotequote all
226bhp said:
Thankyou for your post, i'll follow up the links. The Council EHO have already been called and aren't interested as it's outside of what they deal with, 'Industrial' I think and unconnected to the general public like a high street shop for instance, they advised HSE.
I doubt that's true, they probably can't be bothered, or don't have the resources.

Old Merc

3,486 posts

166 months

Thursday 28th August 2014
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Your problem neighbor is a separate issue.As for you,if your open for business,advertising for customers you can also attract HSE.
I had a car repair business(me and one employee) for 22years(now retired)and during that time had just ONE visit from a very nice young lady from HSE.Her first words were "my job is to prevent accidents not prosecute people who have caused them",nice one I agree to that.
She was not a "jobs worth" went around checking this and that,the vehicle lift and compressor inspection register,fire extinguishers,all the normal stuff.She gave me a small list of recommendations,put up a big HSE sign,goggle sign by the grinder,kill trip plug on the steam cleaner,a few other minor things,no big deal just do it and I will be back to check.

If you want to improve your business and your workshop it would be advisable to check out all the HSE stuff.Complying with rules and regulations can be a pain in the bum but safety is just common sense.
You have to keep an inspection register for a vehicle lift,compressor and any other heavy plant,keep fire extinguisher labels up to date etc etc.My motor traders insurance policy demanded it,along with other recommendations.
As said above,if your workshop burns to the ground along with a couple of customers cars,HSE could get involved,insurance refused,that sort of night mare.
Its all part of the joy of being your own boss.

Mr Taxpayer

438 posts

119 months

Thursday 28th August 2014
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Magog said:
226bhp said:
Thankyou for your post, i'll follow up the links. The Council EHO have already been called and aren't interested as it's outside of what they deal with, 'Industrial' I think and unconnected to the general public like a high street shop for instance, they advised HSE.
I doubt that's true, they probably can't be bothered, or don't have the resources.
You ARE a member of the general public wrt to your neighbour. The Act covers anyone who may be affected by the output or emission of an enterprise. An emission may include noisy as well as dust or chemicals. Tell the council you think it's asbestos and see what happens. Also notify them in writing via recorded delivery or email so you have an auditable trail.
HSWA 1974 Sect 5...
[F6Subject to subsection (5) below,]] It shall be the duty of the person having control of any premises of a class prescribed for the purposes of section 1(1)(d) to use the best practicable means for preventing the emission into the atmosphere from the premises of noxious or offensive substances and for rendering harmless and inoffensive such substances as may be so emitted.

I'm pretty certain they also have duties under the Occupiers Liability Act, but I can't quote that from memory.

55palfers

5,892 posts

163 months

Thursday 28th August 2014
quotequote all
If you are a one-man-band workshop it's the local council Environmental Health Officer who has responsibility not HSE.

You still have certain duties that both the EHO and your insurers need you to comply with.

They won't need to be too onerous though as you don't have to write most of it down into a massive paper chase due to < 5 employees.

Basically:

Get Fire kit checked annually.
Get any gas fired equipment, powered hand tools, etc. and exhaust / extraction ventilation serviced and checked annually.
Ditto with any lifting equipment, forklift truck, etc.
Get some PPE for eye protection when grinding, drilling, etc., hearing protection when it gets noisy and the correct masks for respiratory protection.
If you do welding, store and secure the cylinders properly, check regulators and valves, hoses, for leaks etc. Use a visor.





imagineifyeswill

1,224 posts

165 months

Thursday 28th August 2014
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I as far as Im concerned you will be ok as far as HSE is concerned, its only yourself working in the premises and using the equipment, I certainly dont pay any attention to HSE. Your neighbour is a different matter, hes painting cars, all the paints, thinners etc he uses come under COSH regulations, your local enviroment protection agency may be more suitable for complaining to rather than HSE.

DocJock

8,341 posts

239 months

Thursday 28th August 2014
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ISTR pressure vessels (compressor) require a test and certification every two years.

Ganglandboss

8,294 posts

202 months

Thursday 28th August 2014
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Reading this thread, I remember a documentary about people who work in various health and safety roles and one particular bit. There was a bloke working on his own in a s**t-tip of a garage and the outcome was the local authority enforcing officer was pretty powerless.

I have found the whole programme on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWZD324HLpU

From 35:30

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Thursday 28th August 2014
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HASAWA does apply to a degree to any place the public have access to , also there may be issues if contractors come into do work

PUWER, LOLER etc are not as easy to avoid and youre insurers may demand compliance, which means you are going to have other people working in your workplace to deliver the insopection and testing


John D.

17,702 posts

208 months

Friday 29th August 2014
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I doubt the HSE have the resources to carry out spot checks on sole traders. I work for a large developer in central London and we don't live in fear of a random check. We do go to great lengths to ensure work equipment and fire extinguishers etc are up to scratch though. Certainly in construction it seems rare for them to show up (even after a reportable accident).

ETA just read the twist on the story. Sounds more like an Environmental Health thing as others have said. Air pollution and not controlling waste etc.

Edited by John D. on Friday 29th August 00:25

Chrisgr31

13,440 posts

254 months

Friday 29th August 2014
quotequote all
226bhp said:
My other question is how far do the Landlords have to go when renting out units? There is very little in the way of correct fireproofing or H&S items provided by him, but as they've got a lot of sites and have been doing it a long time presume they knows what they're doing. Is it the tenants job to make the place safe?
Usually up to the tenant, although it will depend on the terms of the lease.Generally buildings need to comply with the regulations that applied when they were built rather than those that apply today.

Some landlords will check the property complies with H&S partly because they often do the insurance, and that requires the checks are made.


imp123

281 posts

243 months

Friday 29th August 2014
quotequote all
Magog said:
I doubt that's true, they probably can't be bothered, or don't have the resources.
It's actually true, the following link details what HSE and EHO do, broadly speaking

http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/internalops/ocs/100-199/...

Fire extinguishers are of more interest to the fire brigade

In general terms if you are self employed and your work activities do not impact on others it is unlikely the HSE will visit, the current government are further strengthening this with amendment to legislation.

With respect to the OP if you are in the motor vehicle repair trade the following publication is a useful guide to health and safety in the your industry http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/hsg261.pdf