Use of phone vs use of satnav
Discussion
Now that free apps on smartphones provide excellent turn by turn navigation, it's not surprising that many people are mounting them on the screen or dash and using them for this purpose.
I guess that the catch-all "use of a mobile device" could be used by BiB to apply points/fine to drivers using the devices these ways. Does this happen? At what point do they use their discretion? Let's say that I use Google maps on my phone to plot a route from A to B, mount said phone in a holder, and then set off. Half way through the journey, the app wants to tell me that due to traffic better routes are available. A single press on the screen is enough to accept the new route, but if BiB saw me do this, he could easily assert "I saw you touch your phone, that's all I need".
Satnav systems offer similar functionality and modern touchscreen ones are OK but older ones that are controlled via buttons etc require considerably more intervention by the driver. But I don't really hear about drivers being picked up for this.
What's the legal position on using a phone for satnav purposes? They're usually mounted high up so easy for a passing police car to spot. Could/would they apply "use of a mobile device" even if you weren't touching it? What if you pressed it once to accept a warning message? Twice? Three times? At what point are you "using" it, and how does it compare with "using" other controls in your care such as the satnav/radio/heater etc? I suspect that all the latter cases would be covered under "careless driving" or "driving without due care" if BiB wanted to prosecute, but I get the feeling that you'd have to be obviously distracted to get picked up for this, whereas I feel that touching a mounted phone is far more likely to get you picked up.
Any thoughts? I haven't been "done", but am considering using my phone for this purpose but don't want to attract a penalty.
I guess that the catch-all "use of a mobile device" could be used by BiB to apply points/fine to drivers using the devices these ways. Does this happen? At what point do they use their discretion? Let's say that I use Google maps on my phone to plot a route from A to B, mount said phone in a holder, and then set off. Half way through the journey, the app wants to tell me that due to traffic better routes are available. A single press on the screen is enough to accept the new route, but if BiB saw me do this, he could easily assert "I saw you touch your phone, that's all I need".
Satnav systems offer similar functionality and modern touchscreen ones are OK but older ones that are controlled via buttons etc require considerably more intervention by the driver. But I don't really hear about drivers being picked up for this.
What's the legal position on using a phone for satnav purposes? They're usually mounted high up so easy for a passing police car to spot. Could/would they apply "use of a mobile device" even if you weren't touching it? What if you pressed it once to accept a warning message? Twice? Three times? At what point are you "using" it, and how does it compare with "using" other controls in your care such as the satnav/radio/heater etc? I suspect that all the latter cases would be covered under "careless driving" or "driving without due care" if BiB wanted to prosecute, but I get the feeling that you'd have to be obviously distracted to get picked up for this, whereas I feel that touching a mounted phone is far more likely to get you picked up.
Any thoughts? I haven't been "done", but am considering using my phone for this purpose but don't want to attract a penalty.
Reg 110 RVCUR 1986 said:
(1) No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a road if he is using—
(a) a hand-held mobile telephone; or
(b) a hand-held device of a kind specified in paragraph (4).
It even handily explains what is meant by hand-held:-
For the purposes of this regulation—
(a)a mobile telephone or other device is to be treated as hand-held if it is, or must be, held at some point during the course of making or receiving a call or performing any other interactive communication function
Basically if it's in a holder you don't commit the offence of driving whilst using a hand-held phone.
Cat
Using a hand-held mobile phone whilst driving a vehicle on a road is an offence.
Legislation prohibits a person from driving, or causing or permitting a person to drive, a motor vehicle on a road if the driver is using a hand-held mobile telephone or similar device. The legislation does not set out what is meant by 'using'. However, the Department for Transport outlined, in a consultation letter about the then new legislation, the following:
'The offence will apply to drivers speaking or listening to a phone call, using a device interactively for accessing any sort of data, which would include the Internet, sending or receiving text messages or other images if it is held in the driver's hand during at least part of the period of its operation. We do not wish to prohibit the carrying of hand-held phones in vehicles or require them to be switched off. A phone may therefore continue to be used to receive data when it is in a vehicle providing the driver is not holding it.
Within the context of holding a phone, pushing buttons on a phone while it is in a cradle or if it is being operated via buttons on the steering wheel or handlebars of a motorbike would not, in our view, breach the new regulation.'
There is an exemption which allows the use of a hand-held phone for a genuine emergency call to 999 where it would be unsafe for a driver to stop driving to make the call.
The offence must be on a road (rather than 'on a road or other public place') and therefore if you are in a supermarket car park then you would have a defence to using a mobile phone on a road.
The offence is subject to a fixed penalty of £100 and 3 penalty points or a fine of up to £1000 and 3 penalty points or discretionary disqualification at court.
Legislation prohibits a person from driving, or causing or permitting a person to drive, a motor vehicle on a road if the driver is using a hand-held mobile telephone or similar device. The legislation does not set out what is meant by 'using'. However, the Department for Transport outlined, in a consultation letter about the then new legislation, the following:
'The offence will apply to drivers speaking or listening to a phone call, using a device interactively for accessing any sort of data, which would include the Internet, sending or receiving text messages or other images if it is held in the driver's hand during at least part of the period of its operation. We do not wish to prohibit the carrying of hand-held phones in vehicles or require them to be switched off. A phone may therefore continue to be used to receive data when it is in a vehicle providing the driver is not holding it.
Within the context of holding a phone, pushing buttons on a phone while it is in a cradle or if it is being operated via buttons on the steering wheel or handlebars of a motorbike would not, in our view, breach the new regulation.'
There is an exemption which allows the use of a hand-held phone for a genuine emergency call to 999 where it would be unsafe for a driver to stop driving to make the call.
The offence must be on a road (rather than 'on a road or other public place') and therefore if you are in a supermarket car park then you would have a defence to using a mobile phone on a road.
The offence is subject to a fixed penalty of £100 and 3 penalty points or a fine of up to £1000 and 3 penalty points or discretionary disqualification at court.
PhilboSE said:
Thanks for the replies, that's reassuring to know that mounting a phone in a holder and interacting with it would not be an offence.
There is another related offence - not in proper control; which doesn't require you to be using a hand held phone. Potentially applicable to messing about with the CD player, satnav, reading a newspaper, etc. and by way of example, I had a client done for holding a CD case (therefore driving with one hand) but the case was dropped before trial.Corbeliere said:
If you could be prosecuted in the way you thought then the same offence would probably include altering your radio/heating or air-con/cruise control, etc.
Just as well that's not the case.
Well, that was kind of my original question but I was wondering if the issue of it being a phone trumped it. As you say, thankfully it's not.Just as well that's not the case.
Cat said:
Reg 110 RVCUR 1986 said:
(1) No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a road if he is using—
(a) a hand-held mobile telephone; or
(b) a hand-held device of a kind specified in paragraph (4).
It even handily explains what is meant by hand-held:-
For the purposes of this regulation—
(a)a mobile telephone or other device is to be treated as hand-held if it is, or must be, held at some point during the course of making or receiving a call or performing any other interactive communication function
Basically if it's in a holder you don't commit the offence of driving whilst using a hand-held phone.
Cat
Cat said:
Basically if it's in a holder you don't commit the offence of driving whilst using a hand-held phone.
Thanks for that. Recently spent 2weeks with a non-Satnav equipped HireCar (my daily has built-in so I dont own a plugin one.)
I used Google Maps over 3G and to be honest I was very impressed with it compared to my exisitng DVD based 2005 system.
I programmed destinations before I set off, and even driving through rural areas it must have pre-loaded the maps. (Though it probably would have let me down if programming points were in such)
Only downside I discovered, and why the post above is useful, is that if I recieved a call - and it had a handsfree kit - the call would interupt the mapping requiring a single screen press (back button) to return to it.
As I'm currently looking to change my daily, and there appears to be a large premium for models with "built in" , am considering using phone mapping a more permenant fixture because I was impressed with it, and its only going to get better with time. Given my existing satnav is quite antiquated - but presumably legal to change destination en route, and that eventually phone coverage will be good enough to allow routing via voice command its good to know that phone in a cradle is OK for satnav.
Finlandia said:
Cat said:
Finlandia said:
Does this now cover walkie talkies too?
No. Two way radios are specifically exempted in the legislation. Cat
Makes sense in that context, at least to me.
PhilboSE said:
Thanks for the replies, that's reassuring to know that mounting a phone in a holder and interacting with it would not be an offence.
The specific offence about a hand held phone wouldn't be a problem, but you could still be prosecuted for careless or dangerous driving if your use of a device mounted in a holder were to cause you to drive like a wazzock. Breadvan72 said:
The specific offence about a hand held phone wouldn't be a problem, but you could still be prosecuted for careless or dangerous driving if your use of a device mounted in a holder were to cause you to drive like a wazzock.
Correct or use s.41D(a) rather than 41(D)(b)http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/sectio...
buachaille193 said:
Finlandia said:
Cat said:
Finlandia said:
Does this now cover walkie talkies too?
No. Two way radios are specifically exempted in the legislation. Cat
Makes sense in that context, at least to me.
jellypig said:
Cat said:
Basically if it's in a holder you don't commit the offence of driving whilst using a hand-held phone.
Thanks for that. Recently spent 2weeks with a non-Satnav equipped HireCar (my daily has built-in so I dont own a plugin one.)
I used Google Maps over 3G and to be honest I was very impressed with it compared to my exisitng DVD based 2005 system.
I programmed destinations before I set off, and even driving through rural areas it must have pre-loaded the maps. (Though it probably would have let me down if programming points were in such)
Only downside I discovered, and why the post above is useful, is that if I recieved a call - and it had a handsfree kit - the call would interupt the mapping requiring a single screen press (back button) to return to it.
As I'm currently looking to change my daily, and there appears to be a large premium for models with "built in" , am considering using phone mapping a more permenant fixture because I was impressed with it, and its only going to get better with time. Given my existing satnav is quite antiquated - but presumably legal to change destination en route, and that eventually phone coverage will be good enough to allow routing via voice command its good to know that phone in a cradle is OK for satnav.
This post sums it up neatly.'If I received a call, the call would iterrupt the mapping'.Who can resist not answering a call?. Not many I would suggest. Even if this is a hands free call which has been proved as dangerous as a hands held.Lets be honest here,mapping is phone use by the back door.
Finlandia said:
buachaille193 said:
Finlandia said:
Cat said:
Finlandia said:
Does this now cover walkie talkies too?
No. Two way radios are specifically exempted in the legislation. Cat
Makes sense in that context, at least to me.
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