5 Year Old Cancer Patient Abducted By Parents From Hospital!

5 Year Old Cancer Patient Abducted By Parents From Hospital!

Author
Discussion

Waz1999

9 posts

140 months

Sunday 31st August 2014
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BIANCO said:
This is a typical case of dammed if they do dammed if they don’t. If the state doesn’t step in and a kid dies a slow and painful death everyone would be up in arms saying why something wasn’t done. But on the other hand like in this case they do something you get a load of people saying they have no right to.
Except they embellished it with talk of the feeding device battery running out. A battery which is easily recharged with a wall plug. A model of feeding device which is known by the medical profession to be easily rechargeable, as a neurosurgeon unrelated to the case commented after this story went public.

The hospital and the police lied and lied and lied.

Waz1999

9 posts

140 months

Sunday 31st August 2014
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chris1roll said:
The BBC's reporting of this on the radio has incrementally backed off the parents...

It started off as "Abducted".
[at the time I was puzzled as to how both the parents acting together could abduct their own child, in the absence of a court order]

Then yesterday evening/this morning it became "taken without Doctors consent".

And now this afternoon it was "removed against Doctors' advice".



Hopefully the authorities will back off in a similar manner and allow them to get him the best treatment.
I'm a layman but the first time I saw this on TV, I thought "you do not need the consent of anyone to take your child out of hospital".

Are the BBC so incompetent that they check nothing. Did they just regurgitate everything that came from the police?

Jasandjules

69,825 posts

228 months

Sunday 31st August 2014
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Well I hope the parents sue the police (if they can!) for this. It is sounding more and more ludicrous as I read more.

Eclassy

1,201 posts

121 months

Sunday 31st August 2014
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hairykrishna said:
Does anyone know what type of brain tumour he has?

Most types are infiltrating and poorly defined on imaging. Not great candidates for proton therapy.
Medulloblastomy.


http://www.proton-therapy.org/hemonctoday_82520.ht...

Getragdogleg

8,736 posts

182 months

Sunday 31st August 2014
quotequote all

If the Parents are under arrest in Spain for "neglect" when can we look forward to the McCanns getting arrested for the same ?

Also, what is the cut off point for Child neglect ? when does it become ok for men to fk them with impunity ?

What are the criteria for those men to get protection from the Police and state ?


technogogo

401 posts

183 months

Sunday 31st August 2014
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Eclassy said:
technogogo said:
I think they pushed their doctors into a corner. The facts are likely to be it was half a dozen of one and six of the other.

They didn't go to a private hospital. They didn't go to another NHS hospital. They don't seem to have put their house on the market. They don't seem to have opened dialog with alternative healthcare providers. They FLED to Spain avoiding airports. Simple as.
1. Of what use would it have been going to another NHS/private hospital? Proton Beam treatment isnt currently offered in the UK.

2. It is cheaper to drive a family of 8 to spain than fly. I believe they took the decision to go abroad in the past few days when it became obvious the doctors were going to go ahead with the radiotherapy they didnt want.

3. How do you know their house isnt on the market? Ha! You didnt find it on Rightmove.

4. They didnt FLEE. Until a court order is obtained, parents have the right to remove their child from hospital and seek alternative treatment.
1 at other NHS they'd have a second/third opinion with fresh set of doctors with whom they would not (yet!) have lost trust. They could explore benefits and drawbacks of radiotherapy. Different types etc.... They could have sought out a team that had previously referred someone for proton beam? I wonder though, their main motivation, is it to avoid radiotherapy at any cost. (There is much poorly reasoned anti material on the interwebs).... Or was this about the hope, however vain, that proton beam is a cure worth would clinging to? (I'm hugely sympathetic by the way even though I don't sound d it.)

2 yeah silly doctors and their crazy ideas. What do they know?

3 if it was I think they'd have mentioned it as a defensive point.

4 yes though if they knew the process was starting imminently then it is still fleeing really. If I had robbed your house and travelled quickly to Spain knowing that I was going to be arrested later that day I think you'd be less concerned about the finer points of what forms had been filled in and when?

Although radiotherapy will someday seem as primitive as leaches, it is what we have. Being zapped with a beam of protons at high enough energy to penetrate the skull yet not do too much damage to healthy brain tissue sounds equally iffy. But either is better than a young brain slowly being devoured by cancer. It is a horrible choice. But no time for a trip to the costa.


Qwert1e

545 posts

117 months

Sunday 31st August 2014
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Waz1999 said:
I'm a layman but the first time I saw this on TV, I thought "you do not need the consent of anyone to take your child out of hospital".
Please read the thread. It's not that simple.

Waz1999

9 posts

140 months

Sunday 31st August 2014
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Qwert1e said:
Please read the thread. It's not that simple.
Yes it is that simple.

Either you need consent to remove someone from hospital or you don't. You don't.

The additional information from the BBC that the parents had not, in fact, done anything whatsoever illegal came much later.

VolvoT5

4,155 posts

173 months

Sunday 31st August 2014
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technogogo said:
1 at other NHS they'd have a second/third opinion with fresh set of doctors with whom they would not (yet!) have lost trust. They could explore benefits and drawbacks of radiotherapy. Different types etc.... They could have sought out a team that had previously referred someone for proton beam? I wonder though, their main motivation, is it to avoid radiotherapy at any cost. (There is much poorly reasoned anti material on the interwebs).... Or was this about the hope, however vain, that proton beam is a cure worth would clinging to? (I'm hugely sympathetic by the way even though I don't sound d it.)

4 yes though if they knew the process was starting imminently then it is still fleeing really. If I had robbed your house and travelled quickly to Spain knowing that I was going to be arrested later that day I think you'd be less concerned about the finer points of what forms had been filled in and when?

Although radiotherapy will someday seem as primitive as leaches, it is what we have. Being zapped with a beam of protons at high enough energy to penetrate the skull yet not do too much damage to healthy brain tissue sounds equally iffy. But either is better than a young brain slowly being devoured by cancer. It is a horrible choice. But no time for a trip to the costa.
Maybe they didn't want a second or third opinion from the NHS, they are not obliged. Perhaps they had lost total faith in the system. And having watched the youtube video I don't think they were under any illusions that the proton beam thing was a miracle cure - just a potential treatment with less severe side effects. To me the guy seemed pretty rational, although I guess he could be a very convincing psychopath.

The father claims they were threatened with the court order process if they didn't stop questioning the treatments. This is slightly different from saying the process had already been started. It seems they were basically told to shut or 'or else', so decided to opt out of the system completely. Personally I don't see anything wrong with that.

As for your last point, well I think it is debatable given the very real possibility of severe side effects. Is potentially living the rest of your life severely disabled preferable to dying? I have no idea, it is a personal judgement call surely.




loafer123

15,404 posts

214 months

Sunday 31st August 2014
quotequote all
technogogo said:
loafer123 said:
Except the doctors threatened to take out a court order if they pursued other treatments....I think they were pushed into a corner by their doctors, and took their son out of the doctor's hands while they still had the chance.
I think they pushed their doctors into a corner. The facts are likely to be it was half a dozen of one and six of the other.

They didn't go to a private hospital. They didn't go to another NHS hospital. They don't seem to have put their house on the market. They don't seem to have opened dialog with alternative healthcare providers. They FLED to Spain avoiding airports. Simple as.
If they turn out to have taken him away to die in the company of his family, rather than endure further futile treatment, I wouldn't crticise them either.

eldar

21,614 posts

195 months

Monday 1st September 2014
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loafer123 said:
If they turn out to have taken him away to die in the company of his family, rather than endure further futile treatment, I wouldn't crticise them either.
Quite. However, if the case is terminal that often happens. This sounds like a combination of poor communications between the parents and medical staff, a serious illness with a variety of treatments of varying cost and effectiveness and st scared parents.

If the parents perceived rightly or wrongly, that the NHS was seeking to obtain a legal remedy to prevent them being with their sick child, then their reaction is understandable.

All in all a clusterfk, fuelled by an over excited BBC whipping up froth over an NHS & Police questionable reaction. The sick child almost became incedental to the manhunt.

All in all, very sad story.

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Monday 1st September 2014
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TheSnitch said:
mph1977 said:
As is typical for PH the powerfully built conflation machine is in full effect.

While Proton beam therapy is effective, we do not know if this is the case for the type and location of residual tumour in this case.

My comments with regard to quackery and woo were in relation to the pi ture being painted of other treatment options.

I also do wonder if Mr King has an u realistic expectation of the progress and prognosis of proton beam vs other treatment options. Regardless of the treatment options the prognosis and recovery rate and time from the Brain Injuries sustained as a result of the tumour and the surgical procedure is going to be highly variable.

Proton Beam is not going to magically give them their little boy back as he was pre tumour.
Yes we do - it has been studied in trials in just this type of cancer, these are published studies.
[/quote}

at pain of labouring the it i will repeat the point , this evidence does not means it will necessarily work in the case of this young man

TheSnitch said:
Your comments about quackery with respect to this case were completely ignorant. No-one within his family has suggested they want to pursue ''alternative'' therapies.
[/quote}

mr King from the video he made has an extremely , possibly unrealistically positive view of Proton beam and an internet quackery and woo driven fear or other conventional treatment which may also be effective.


i believe the PH approved term for the King's attitude towards the Hospital after the possibility of a legal resolutions were raised is a 'flounce'. Mr and Mrs King;s apparent refusal to engage after the posibility of legal involvement has not helped and it can be argued on that point alone that they are not acting in Aysha's best interests never mind the the clinical emergency concerns ( aspriation, seizure etc )

it appears Mr King is quiet about the second Opinion becasue he has refused to seek one

the Hospital is countering the assertions made by Mr King that they unwilling to facilitate a transfer of care ( reocrds are passed clinican to clinician in a referral - this is also not a few pages of notes and a few films / a CD of plain film images when you break your ankle on the beach or skiing ...

TheSnitch said:
Nor has he indicated that he has unrealistic expectations of therapy, he seems to know and understand that his child is suffering from Posteria Fossa syndrome following his surgery. I'm afraid you went in with both feet without bothering to familiarise yourself with this case and made a hell of a lot of assumptions, something you are continuing to do.
but it appears considerably more knowledge of how clinicians work than most of the other posters ... funny isn;t it how Indepednent clinicians being asked to comment on the topic by the news media are ras#sing the exact same clinically valid concerns.

TheSnitch

2,342 posts

153 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
''at pain of labouring the it i will repeat the point , this evidence does not means it will necessarily work in the case of this young man''

I'm afraid you seem to lack understanding of clinical studies.

They can never predict the outcome for the individual.

The use of proton beam therapy has been studied in children with medulloblastoma. It has been shown to be effective and to be sparing of healthy tissues. No-one is suggesting that is the end of the story, long term survival data, by their vary nature, are not generated overnight. But the rationale of seeking this therapy for this condition is sound. You keep insisting this family are embracing ''woo'' therapies - perhaps you could point me to that, as I have seen no such evidence.

TheSnitch

2,342 posts

153 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
For those who don't know, here is a breakdown of the side effects and long term consequences of radiotherapy in children treated for brain tumours. The reason for many of these is that the radiation cannot be confined to a narrow field. So the risk is one kills the tumour but the child then has to endure a lifetime of health issues and disability.

http://www.pedsoncologyeducation.com/SideEffectsXR...

Proton beam therapy is sparing of more of the healthy tissues as it can be focused on the tumour more effectively. This may translate into fewer long-term consequences of treatment. Proton therapy is ised in the UK, but as things currently stand there is only one unit using it and it is exclusively to treat tumours of the eye.

It may be that the long-term prognosis for this child is not good and the clinicians do not feel he would benefit significantly from either treatment. However, that isn't purely their decision to make.

The irony is that this is the same NHS who have pursued a family to the fullest extent of the law for choosing to try a mainstream, conventional, proven treatment which is not offered in the UK, yet operates several ''Homeopathic hospitals'' not because they believe it to be of any value at all, but because they believe they are offering the patient ''choice''

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
TheSnitch said:
<snip> You keep insisting this family are embracing ''woo'' therapies - perhaps you could point me to that, as I have seen no such evidence.
i have not done so and i resent your implication ,

again at pain of labouringthe point, from the Video Mr King has put on You tube several things are very apparent to anyone who has any understanding of the operational realities of healthcare delivery and any understanding of grieving processes

1. Mr king is Angry - this is understandable no one wants their child to have a life threatening / life limiting condition

2. the Kings did a 'flounce' when Legal involvement was suggested

3. I think Mr King appears to have an unrealistically positive view of the benefits of Proton beam therapy, if it is indicated for Aysha , however his refusal to engage or a accept a Second Opinion may have delayed the referral process.

4. I think Mr king has anrealistically negative view of the side effects and sequalae of treatments - this is why People are often advised not to google their condition becasue in some cases the woo, quackeryt and barely understood but highly emotive stories of people who have oncommonly severe sequalae to treatment are the ones ... add in the who correlation does not imply causality and all the other misapprehensions that lay people have about things , plus of course this very dramatic 'flounce' ...


Bill

52,472 posts

254 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
Well I hope the parents sue the police (if they can!) for this. It is sounding more and more ludicrous as I read more.
Sue them for what? Reacting promptly to a potential child protection case?

However now the child is in hospital in Spain the parents' arrest and extradition case is ridiculous.

Westy Pre-Lit

5,087 posts

202 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
Bill said:
Sue them for what? Reacting promptly to a potential child protection case?

Shame they don't react so quick on actual child abuse cases that are only now finally coming to light.

The treatment of this family is appalling.


Foppo

2,344 posts

123 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
There is danger in Googling a condition of illness I agree.When I was first was diagnosed with esophageal cancer I had a look on the net.

5% survival change increasing in some cases to 20% the first five years if a operation was possible.

It did scare me, me thinking that is it live over at sixty one.The one thing what did help me Googling on the net that a full operation instead of key hole surgery maybe gave me a better change of survival.

The surgeon who did the operation top bloke from the Sudan was going to use keyhole operation on me.I don't know if I changed his mind but he decided to open me fully and spend nine hrs operating with his team to save me.Not before I had a pre.op.to make sure the cancer hadn't spread.

Something has gone wrong regarding the doctor who looked after this little lad that the parents lost trust in him or her.Threatening loving parents who are desperate to save their child is never the answer.Locking them up is the last thing they need.Authorities get a grip.

TheSnitch

2,342 posts

153 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
mph1977 said:
TheSnitch said:
<snip> You keep insisting this family are embracing ''woo'' therapies - perhaps you could point me to that, as I have seen no such evidence.
i have not done so and i resent your implication ,

again at pain of labouringthe point, from the Video Mr King has put on You tube several things are very apparent to anyone who has any understanding of the operational realities of healthcare delivery and any understanding of grieving processes

1. Mr king is Angry - this is understandable no one wants their child to have a life threatening / life limiting condition

2. the Kings did a 'flounce' when Legal involvement was suggested

3. I think Mr King appears to have an unrealistically positive view of the benefits of Proton beam therapy, if it is indicated for Aysha , however his refusal to engage or a accept a Second Opinion may have delayed the referral process.

4. I think Mr king has anrealistically negative view of the side effects and sequalae of treatments - this is why People are often advised not to google their condition becasue in some cases the woo, quackeryt and barely understood but highly emotive stories of people who have oncommonly severe sequalae to treatment are the ones ... add in the who correlation does not imply causality and all the other misapprehensions that lay people have about things , plus of course this very dramatic 'flounce' ...
Now let's look at what you ACTUALLY said earlier

''it's quite clear that Mr King has decided regardless of the actual clinical picture that proton beam treatment is a magic bullet.

He is obviously angry with the fact his son has had this diagnosis and has chosen to take it out on the Clinicians who are treating his son.

he also seems to have swallowed all the kooks and quackery that float about the Internet - there is a very good reason that patients are advised not avoid the internet for 'research' on conditions becasue of the amount of utter utter ste that is put out by none credible sources. ''

I think we can all observe that you have in fact edited your earlier comments which I have quoted above where you did, quite clearly, indicate that. So resent away.

I would also be grateful if you could address the other matter I highlighted, with regards to your comment that the effects of treatment cannot be predicted for the individual.

I must say it stikes me that Mr King is far more measured and far less angry than your good self. Don't bother with your ''You don't know what it's like'' diatribe either. As a former NHS employee I can assure you I know precisely what it's like.

metrofour

98 posts

183 months

Monday 1st September 2014
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What I find even sadder ironically is that if he needed a transfusion they would let him die-so I assume the state would step in and prevent that also?