Recording Police actions
Discussion
There is a legal requirement to give certain details to a police officer when requested. If you fail to do so then you commit an offence. If you walk away from a stop then a police officer can arrest. If someone gets into the back of a police car and then, before giving all the necessary details, gets out then I'd suggest an arrest is legal.
Further, I used to teach drink driving legislation, powers and problems to those who wanted to operate the substantive, station based breath test machine.
In order to get them thinking laterally one part of the lesson used to be to come up with defences that might be used by a driver. In general the suggestions all had been found wanting in court but on occasion there was a new one and we would look into these to see if they could be negated. There were some very imaginative ones, but few that could not be successfully challenged. However:
One good one is now rendered useless as it depended on the old glass-tube testing device.
Another, though, required the driver to refuse to leave his car but to allow, not to say encourage, the testing officer to get in the car. I couldn't negate it during the course and then said that I would get back to everyone. I approached the CPS DD specialist and she at first was dismissive but then got back to me and suggested that I never mention the procedure again.
So I won't.
It required a change in purchasing in my force.
Further, I used to teach drink driving legislation, powers and problems to those who wanted to operate the substantive, station based breath test machine.
In order to get them thinking laterally one part of the lesson used to be to come up with defences that might be used by a driver. In general the suggestions all had been found wanting in court but on occasion there was a new one and we would look into these to see if they could be negated. There were some very imaginative ones, but few that could not be successfully challenged. However:
One good one is now rendered useless as it depended on the old glass-tube testing device.
Another, though, required the driver to refuse to leave his car but to allow, not to say encourage, the testing officer to get in the car. I couldn't negate it during the course and then said that I would get back to everyone. I approached the CPS DD specialist and she at first was dismissive but then got back to me and suggested that I never mention the procedure again.
So I won't.
It required a change in purchasing in my force.
Derek Smith said:
Another, though, required the driver to refuse to leave his car but to allow, not to say encourage, the testing officer to get in the car. I couldn't negate it during the course and then said that I would get back to everyone. I approached the CPS DD specialist and she at first was dismissive but then got back to me and suggested that I never mention the procedure again.
Derek Smith said:
There is a legal requirement to give certain details to a police officer when requested. If you fail to do so then you commit an offence. If you walk away from a stop then a police officer can arrest. If someone gets into the back of a police car and then, before giving all the necessary details, gets out then I'd suggest an arrest is legal.
Further, I used to teach drink driving legislation, powers and problems to those who wanted to operate the substantive, station based breath test machine.
In order to get them thinking laterally one part of the lesson used to be to come up with defences that might be used by a driver. In general the suggestions all had been found wanting in court but on occasion there was a new one and we would look into these to see if they could be negated. There were some very imaginative ones, but few that could not be successfully challenged. However:
One good one is now rendered useless as it depended on the old glass-tube testing device.
Another, though, required the driver to refuse to leave his car but to allow, not to say encourage, the testing officer to get in the car. I couldn't negate it during the course and then said that I would get back to everyone. I approached the CPS DD specialist and she at first was dismissive but then got back to me and suggested that I never mention the procedure again.
So I won't.
It required a change in purchasing in my force.
Derek - exactly my example - ive been processed, provided all of the relevant details for the traffic offence for which i was stopped - after which I should be free to open the door and hop out - there being no other issues in relation to the stop the original answer inferred I couldnt go then until they chose to let me out - that was my one and only observation Further, I used to teach drink driving legislation, powers and problems to those who wanted to operate the substantive, station based breath test machine.
In order to get them thinking laterally one part of the lesson used to be to come up with defences that might be used by a driver. In general the suggestions all had been found wanting in court but on occasion there was a new one and we would look into these to see if they could be negated. There were some very imaginative ones, but few that could not be successfully challenged. However:
One good one is now rendered useless as it depended on the old glass-tube testing device.
Another, though, required the driver to refuse to leave his car but to allow, not to say encourage, the testing officer to get in the car. I couldn't negate it during the course and then said that I would get back to everyone. I approached the CPS DD specialist and she at first was dismissive but then got back to me and suggested that I never mention the procedure again.
So I won't.
It required a change in purchasing in my force.
PV7998 said:
I go back to the example of the 25 year old woman I know who became frightened and tearful in the back of a Police car.....of course she could leave as soon as she felt like it....the trouble was she was too scared and too emotional to actually ask - and she's an intelligent respectable person.
Of course you average toe rag won't be in the least bit worried and will probably demand to be let out rather than ask........the trouble is that not everyone you stop is your average toe rag.
The first time I was ever pulled over I wasn't offered a seat in the police car. I was just going home on my christmas leave and was giving another bloke a lift, I'd recently fixed the blocked heater matrix so to show off we both had shorts and shirts on. It was freezing. Because I was shivering due to the cold the police thought I was shifty (that and it probably looked like we had both escaped from an asylum). That lead for them to have a quick look through my car, and pulling my mate aside to ask what my name was separately. I was more interesting that one of the guys was from a police TV show (can't remember the name but it was in the maidenhead area). I didn't think they had done anything particularly wrong - and would consider that a lot more traumatic than being asked to sit in a car.
Elroy Blue said:
Awwww bless.
If you stop turning simple procedures into something terrible and suggesting people are being imprisoned against their will, perhaps the 'Bigend bashers' might not feel the need to correct you.
Stop getting so aerated over fairly simple questions - if ive got the wrong end of the stick explain calmly and patiently till youve made yourself understood- simple really.If you stop turning simple procedures into something terrible and suggesting people are being imprisoned against their will, perhaps the 'Bigend bashers' might not feel the need to correct you.
Bigends said:
Stop getting so aerated over fairly simple questions - if ive got the wrong end of the stick explain calmly and patiently till youve made yourself understood- simple really.
You've quickly adopted the PH response of answering points you don't like with 'Stop getting so aerated'.It was only you that turned ASKING someone to get into a Police car into life imprisonment and being held against your will. A very routine task. Numerous Officers thought it very odd that having served 40 years, you had to ask the question at all.
Elroy Blue said:
Awwww bless.
If you stop turning simple procedures into something terrible and suggesting people are being imprisoned against their will, perhaps the 'Bigend bashers' might not feel the need to correct you.
When did I say imprisoned against their will?...............I was merely adding an anecdote to give you food for thought........sorry about that If you stop turning simple procedures into something terrible and suggesting people are being imprisoned against their will, perhaps the 'Bigend bashers' might not feel the need to correct you.
Elroy Blue said:
Bigends said:
Stop getting so aerated over fairly simple questions - if ive got the wrong end of the stick explain calmly and patiently till youve made yourself understood- simple really.
You've quickly adopted the PH response of answering points you don't like with 'Stop getting so aerated'.It was only you that turned ASKING someone to get into a Police car into life imprisonment and being held against your will. A very routine task. Numerous Officers thought it very odd that having served 40 years, you had to ask the question at all.
Thats it from me on the subject now . I'm back to work tomorrow sorting out the weekends crime recording shambles - have a good, safe week
Edited by Bigends on Sunday 31st August 15:37
Bigends said:
Elroy Blue said:
Bigends said:
Stop getting so aerated over fairly simple questions - if ive got the wrong end of the stick explain calmly and patiently till youve made yourself understood- simple really.
You've quickly adopted the PH response of answering points you don't like with 'Stop getting so aerated'.It was only you that turned ASKING someone to get into a Police car into life imprisonment and being held against your will. A very routine task. Numerous Officers thought it very odd that having served 40 years, you had to ask the question at all.
Thats it from me on the subject now . I'm back to work tomorrow sorting out the weekends crime recording shambles - have a good, safe week
The knowledge and experience you specials are gaining now is creditable
Edited by Bigends on Sunday 31st August 15:37
Bigends said:
Derek - exactly my example - ive been processed, provided all of the relevant details for the traffic offence for which i was stopped - after which I should be free to open the door and hop out - there being no other issues in relation to the stop the original answer inferred I couldnt go then until they chose to let me out - that was my one and only observation
If you are interviewed in a custody unit voluntarily you can't 'open the door and hop out' either. What a bizarre thread!XCP said:
If you are interviewed in a custody unit voluntarily you can't 'open the door and hop out' either. What a bizarre thread!
Certainly is. It's apparently terribly oppressive to have to wait five seconds while the Police Officer either gets out and opens the door or winds the window down so they can open it from the outside. To get back on topic, I'd have loved there to have been video evidence of the stop (actually a physical restraint without any warning) I had from two officers on car park stairs in Brum. As I was passing them, going up, one stuck his arm out to stop me. There followed ten minutes of aggressive questions from the PC about who I was, not based on any evasive answers from me (I identified myself correctly, and in response to his claim I was up to no good, showed him the car keys and offered to take him straight to the bay it was parked in) - because he was sure he "knew me and had nicked me for something" (he didn't and hadn't).
I decided to make an official complaint, but not being that streetwise, I didn't take his PC number, so the Police just lied and claimed it never happened.
This incident (long time ago when I was a youngster) taught me a lot - amongst other things, when these TV cops say "I just knew there was something wrong" I wonder how many times they say that and it isn't true.
I decided to make an official complaint, but not being that streetwise, I didn't take his PC number, so the Police just lied and claimed it never happened.
This incident (long time ago when I was a youngster) taught me a lot - amongst other things, when these TV cops say "I just knew there was something wrong" I wonder how many times they say that and it isn't true.
Elroy Blue said:
XCP said:
If you are interviewed in a custody unit voluntarily you can't 'open the door and hop out' either. What a bizarre thread!
Certainly is. It's apparently terribly oppressive to have to wait five seconds while the Police Officer either gets out and opens the door or winds the window down so they can open it from the outside. Edited by Bigends on Monday 1st September 18:47
[quote=Bigends]
Errrr yes you can - unless youre under arrest youre free to leave and that should be made clear as soon as you get into the custody area unless subsequently arrested during the course of the interview
The external doors in every custody suite I've ever been in have been routinely locked. So, whilst you are quite correct in saying you may elect to leave at any time, your actual exit will be dependant on a Police officer or member of Police staff unlocking the door*. Please explain how this is substantively different from needing an officer to open the child-locked door of a car.
Errrr yes you can - unless youre under arrest youre free to leave and that should be made clear as soon as you get into the custody area unless subsequently arrested during the course of the interview
The external doors in every custody suite I've ever been in have been routinely locked. So, whilst you are quite correct in saying you may elect to leave at any time, your actual exit will be dependant on a Police officer or member of Police staff unlocking the door*. Please explain how this is substantively different from needing an officer to open the child-locked door of a car.
- unless you intend to smash the door open, which would probably see you arrested anyway.
Bigyoke said:
Bigends said:
Errrr yes you can - unless youre under arrest youre free to leave and that should be made clear as soon as you get into the custody area unless subsequently arrested during the course of the interview
The external doors in every custody suite I've ever been in have been routinely locked. So, whilst you are quite correct in saying you may elect to leave at any time, your actual exit will be dependant on a Police officer or member of Police staff unlocking the door*. Please explain how this is substantively different from needing an officer to open the child-locked door of a car.
Because as soon as you asked to leave - the custody Sgt would want you straight out and wouldnt dither about deciding whether they wanted to talk to you about anything else or until they decided whether to let you out or not plus not all standalones are carried out in custody areas - very few of our are - all stations have a standalone interview room to avoid clogging custody up - so yes - they can leave when they want.The external doors in every custody suite I've ever been in have been routinely locked. So, whilst you are quite correct in saying you may elect to leave at any time, your actual exit will be dependant on a Police officer or member of Police staff unlocking the door*. Please explain how this is substantively different from needing an officer to open the child-locked door of a car.
- unless you intend to smash the door open, which would probably see you arrested anyway.
Edited by Bigends on Monday 1st September 21:00
Bigends said:
Because as soon as you asked to leave - the custody Sgt would want you straight out and wouldnt dither about deciding whether they wanted to talk to you about anything else or until they decided whether to let you out or not
Assuming the custody sergeant wasn't busy booking somebody in and dealing with the score of prisoners in the cells.This thread is getting silly.
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