Quick bit of Employment Notice advice

[The Beaver King]

Some quick advice if possible please.

The missus has been offered a job, very short notice (applied 2 weeks ago, call while on holiday, interview/job offer/written contract within 12 hours). It's perfect for her, a good career path and better money.

Now for the messy part.

She has been working at her current employers for 12 months. Her new potential employer has asked whether she can start in 1 week, so this morning she has handed in her notice and ask if she can work a 1 week notice.
They have told her no, it's 4 weeks and she will receive a bad reference if she leaves earlier. Also she has just been paid and they are saying she needs to pay back 1 weeks wages, as she is paid 2 weeks in arrears.

Now I have found a section in her contract that states that the first 6 months of her contract are on probation, with 1 weeks notice of termination. The probation period can be extended up to 24 months and she is on probation until she receives written confirmation of completion.

She has not yet received that letter, ergo she must still be on probation.

So, my questions:

1) Have I interpreted this correctly? If they have not signed off her probation, can she leave with 1 weeks notice given that they can terminate with only 1 weeks notic?

2) They are demanding she pays back the wage arrears before she leaves. Can they do this? Is there an official time period she can pay it back in?

3) Isn't it against employment law to give/threaten with a bad reference? (probably using the wrong terms and I know they can 'unofficially' give a bad reference, but to threaten someone with it...?)

She has worked very hard since being there (no sick, starts early, lots of praise). Nobody has had there probation signed off since she has started, so it isn't just her.

If it makes any difference, this is a big multi-national; but from what she has described to me, they cut a lot of corners and tend to be a bit lax in procedure...

Cheers

Edited by The Beaver King on Monday 15th September 13:19

[The Beaver King]

• bump*

Sorry people, it's getting a bit urgent now.

To simplify things, her employer has now agreed she can leave with 1 weeks notice (the probation period clause caught them out).

The issue is they are now saying she owes them £600 for overpaid wages and 2 days holiday; so 9 days wages. Apparently this is because she is paid two weeks in advance.

For one, this sounds very steep; she only takes home circa £1,100 a month and two, they are demanding it back within the next 3 days.

Frankly I am disgusted at the bullying techniques being used by HR and even her line manager, who attended the meeting, had to tell the HR person to calm down.

I've told the GF to ask for a written request with substantiation for the claimed outstanding money.

Any advice guys/girls on where to look for a similar case. Citizens Advice will be getting a call, but I just want to check quickly if they can do this?

[pmanson]

Hang on, i might be wrong here but if you're paid in arrears you're being paid for work already completed?

So if the pay-run is on the 15th Sept, you'd get paid for work completed between the 15th August and 14 Sept. So in affect the only issue may be the holiday (eg. you normally acrue this at say 2 days p/month).

So if her payday was the 15th Sept and she leaves on the 21st Sept she should expect a payment for 6 days minus any extra days holidays she has taken in his holiday period.

She needs to check her contract and what work has completed / she has been paid for. Seems a bit odd to me.... no one would ever leave a company otherwise.

[The Beaver King]

pmanson said:

Hang on, i might be wrong here but if you're paid in arrears you're being paid for work already completed?

So if the pay-run is on the 15th Sept, you'd get paid for work completed between the 15th August and 14 Sept. So in affect the only issue may be the holiday (eg. you normally acrue this at say 2 days p/month).

So if her payday was the 15th Sept and she leaves on the 21st Sept she should expect a payment for 6 days minus any extra days holidays she has taken in his holiday period.

She needs to check her contract and what work has completed / she has been paid for. Seems a bit odd to me.... no one would ever leave a company otherwise.

Yes, sorry I went slightly retarded and mixed up my 'arrears' and 'advance'.

Basically they are saying that she is paid two weeks in arrears nad two in advance (fairly standard); but as she is leaving one week after pay day, she has been overpaid by one week (fair enough).

The HR person is saying that she owes £600 for 7 days overpaid wages (5 working days + 2 holiday). Not only that, she is demanding a cheque (my GF doesn't have a cheque book) and saying it needs to be paid within the next 3 days.

My questions are:

1) Can they demand the money back? (Yes, probably)
2) What is reasonable notice for requesting money back? (3 days sounds very little notice)
3) How are you supposed to pay them back if you don't have a cheque and how do you keep it all on record?

[Piersman2]

Just be sensible here.

Ask HR to provide a breakdown of the money they say is owing, in writing.

You're under no pressure to pay anything by cheque in 3 days... what they gonna do, sack her!

Be polite and professional, ask for written confirmation of their request. Leave and start new job.

If the written request for repayment seems sensible then pay it as soon as you can, otherwise ask them to clarify anything to your satisfaction then pay as soon as you can.

Of course, if you OH feels bullied and intimidated by the HR bod she could probably just walk out, get to the doctors for a stress note for a week and be done with it... and owe nothing to the company.

[The Beaver King]

Piersman2 said:

Just be sensible here.

Ask HR to provide a breakdown of the money they say is owing, in writing.

You're under no pressure to pay anything by cheque in 3 days... what they gonna do, sack her!

Be polite and professional, ask for written confirmation of their request. Leave and start new job.

If the written request for repayment seems sensible then pay it as soon as you can, otherwise ask them to clarify anything to your satisfaction then pay as soon as you can.

Of course, if you OH feels bullied and intimidated by the HR bod she could probably just walk out, get to the doctors for a stress note for a week and be done with it... and owe nothing to the company.

Thanks for that.

This is pretty much what I have said to the OH; get it in writing and ask for it to be itemised and substantiated.

It's one of those horrible situations where the OH is quite timid and they are being quite aggressive. I'd love to switch places with her and sort it out, but I can only provide support and advice.

[dingg]

just get her to walk out

they're trying to bully her (are pissed at her leaving)

have a few days off before starting the new job

[Gargamel]

At £1,100 a month and with say 20 working days plus two for holiday. If she "owes" 7 days then that is

1100/22 * 7 = £350 not £600

If the prefer to pay employees for work they haven't yet completed then they are always at risk of this kind of thing. It won't be the first time they have had this issue.

[The Beaver King]

dingg said:

just get her to walk out

they're trying to bully her (are pissed at her leaving)

have a few days off before starting the new job

I know where you are coming from, but morally it's a bit st to leave them in the lurch.

That said, if HR give her anymore aggro I will help her write a letter discussing their aggressive and bullying attitude and then suggest she leaves.

It's a real shame as I spoke at length with the GF about doing things professionally, 'by the book' and trying to leave on the best terms possible. HR seem to be going to great lengths to turn this nasty and are making it very personal...

[The Beaver King]

Gargamel said:

At £1,100 a month and with say 20 working days plus two for holiday. If she "owes" 7 days then that is

1100/22 * 7 = £350 not £600

If the prefer to pay employees for work they haven't yet completed then they are always at risk of this kind of thing. It won't be the first time they have had this issue.

Exactly.

I was shocked when the GF told me how much HR reckoned she owed back...

I can only assume they've worked it out pre-tax or some rubbish, rather than take home wage.

[worsy]

Never burn a bridge is my advice.

[KFC]

The Beaver King said:

3) Isn't it against employment law to give/threaten with a bad reference? (probably using the wrong terms and I know they can 'unofficially' give a bad reference, but to threaten someone with it...?)

They are perfectly entitled to say "if you leave without giving your contractually obliged notice period, then that will be reflected in your reference if requested"

Its a popular pub lawyer myth that its illegal to give a bad reference. If its factual, then bad is fine.

[texasjohn]

From what I read above, the contractual notice period is one week (OPs partner is still within her probationary period during which either party is only obliged to give one week)

[anonymous-user]

KFC said:

The Beaver King said:

3) Isn't it against employment law to give/threaten with a bad reference? (probably using the wrong terms and I know they can 'unofficially' give a bad reference, but to threaten someone with it...?)

They are perfectly entitled to say "if you leave without giving your contractually obliged notice period, then that will be reflected in your reference if requested"

Its a popular pub lawyer myth that its illegal to give a bad reference. If its factual, then bad is fine.

Correct. I was in the House of Lords case about liability for negligent references (for the employer, we lost), but a careful and honest reference is fine, even if negative.

[The Beaver King]

Breadvan72 said:

KFC said:

The Beaver King said:

3) Isn't it against employment law to give/threaten with a bad reference? (probably using the wrong terms and I know they can 'unofficially' give a bad reference, but to threaten someone with it...?)

They are perfectly entitled to say "if you leave without giving your contractually obliged notice period, then that will be reflected in your reference if requested"

Its a popular pub lawyer myth that its illegal to give a bad reference. If its factual, then bad is fine.

Correct. I was in the House of Lords case about liability for negligent references (for the employer, we lost), but a careful and honest reference is fine, even if negative.

Appreciate the advice guys.

Thankfully the HR person backtracked very quickly and denied say it, so hopefully she was just blowing smoke. A number of staff, incluing those a Director level, have offered to provide glowing character references, which is positive.

This now all seems to come down to the outstanding overpayment. The number given to my OH was, quite obviously, a gross amount and did not include any tax/national insurance deductions.

The HR person has tried to get my OH to sign a letter stating an amount (which is wrong, but they said they would review it once the head of payroll gets back of holiday) and when she has to pay it back by. I've told the OH not to sign anything.

I can see the final amount being circa £350; she has been told by a few people to just leave and not bother paying the amount back. While I semi-agree, it does seem morally wrong. I do disagree with the timescales though.

If my OH was to propose a longer timescale (say around 60 days), would this be acceptable? What I mean is, is there an official timescale for this kind of stuff? 60 days is a fairly standard payment term in the contracting world, so I see it as quite fair.

[KFC]

The Beaver King said:

I can see the final amount being circa £350; she has been told by a few people to just leave and not bother paying the amount back. While I semi-agree, it does seem morally wrong. I do disagree with the timescales though.

Its absolutely, 100% morally (and legally) wrong. They've done her a favour by pre paying for work, its ridiculous for anyone else to suggest now stealing that money. If they wanted to they could report it to the police and then mention in a reference that her leaving ended up in a police investigation over theft/fraud or whatever...

The Beaver King said:

If my OH was to propose a longer timescale (say around 60 days), would this be acceptable? What I mean is, is there an official timescale for this kind of stuff? 60 days is a fairly standard payment term in the contracting world, so I see it as quite fair.

I've no idea on the legal aspect of it. But as an employer I'd absolutely accept an offer to pay it back within 60 days. Its going to take me longer than 60 days to force it to be paid back anyway.


If I was the employee here, I'd be trying to get this paid back asap. Even if that meant borrowing it from a friend/family if its already been spent. You never know when you might need a good reference, you never know when you might even want to go back there to work. If they think you took the piss when you left the last time, that won't be happening.

[The Beaver King]

KFC said:

The Beaver King said:

I can see the final amount being circa £350; she has been told by a few people to just leave and not bother paying the amount back. While I semi-agree, it does seem morally wrong. I do disagree with the timescales though.

Its absolutely, 100% morally (and legally) wrong. They've done her a favour by pre paying for work, its ridiculous for anyone else to suggest now stealing that money. If they wanted to they could report it to the police and then mention in a reference that her leaving ended up in a police investigation over theft/fraud or whatever...

The Beaver King said:

If my OH was to propose a longer timescale (say around 60 days), would this be acceptable? What I mean is, is there an official timescale for this kind of stuff? 60 days is a fairly standard payment term in the contracting world, so I see it as quite fair.

I've no idea on the legal aspect of it. But as an employer I'd absolutely accept an offer to pay it back within 60 days. Its going to take me longer than 60 days to force it to be paid back anyway.


If I was the employee here, I'd be trying to get this paid back asap. Even if that meant borrowing it from a friend/family if its already been spent. You never know when you might need a good reference, you never know when you might even want to go back there to work. If they think you took the piss when you left the last time, that won't be happening.

All very true

I get what you are saying about paying it back ASAP; personally I would too. The only reason that she wants to hold off is that she will now have to go 6 weeks without being paid, which is manageable (and I can help her out), but she'd rather not leave herself too short (or borrow money off me. She hates that).

[KFC]

Can't you or someone else give her the money?

Or if she has a credit card I'd far rather just use that at a cash machine and pay a fiver or whatever it is in cash advance fees. I'd rather pay this £5 and know I left on excellent terms, than potentially be seen as avoiding paying it back for weeks. Even if thats not what happened, the only thing thats actually relevant is what was perceived to have happened.

[Sir Bagalot]

So she is paid on the 15th for the entire month.

If she left on the 10th, when would she want paying for the 10 days she worked?

a/ Immediately
b/ Happy to wait 5 days until the 15th
c/ Happy to wait 20 days until the end of the month.

Whatever option you decide on is also the same answer as to how quickly the overpayment should be paid back.