Watch Ferrari/K'segg make the P1 look slow through Brunchen

[anonymous-user]

scarble said:

and that generally speaking I don't consider brake based faux-diffs to be on par with proper diffs, though MT will no doubt shout me down on this because modern car electronics are the best
thing ever and completely infallible.

And that is really the point, to describe any particular technical solution in isolation and with the terms "generally speaking" and would be an extreme error on any objective engineers part.


In the P1, the "brake steer" system brings a level of performance that is at worst "equivalent" to to a conventional locking differential (passive or active). But i would never suggest that "brake steer" is better than an LSD on a "general level". That would foolish and be like saying "green" is better than "blue". (if you are building some traffic lights then it might be, but in general, as you are into subjective opinions at that point)

Now, subjective opinions are all well all good, afterall, that is primarily what a discussion forum is all about, but that's all they are, subjective.

Lets take "Brake steer" as an example again. Which of the following processes do you think Mclaren automotive carried out when developing the P1:

1) Go do the pub, get pissed, think, "hey boys, lets uses brake steer, it's wicked init"

or

2) Spend several hundred thousand pounds and many hundreds of man hrs benchmarking ALL the existing, and emerging chassis technologies before using objective data, simulation, and experience to determine which one of those solutions offered the best performance within the necessary criteria?


Of course, i'm sure that, Porsche did EXACTLY the same, and they came up with a different answer, not because they were WRONG, but because they had a different set of criteria to work too. Hence to say "brake steer" is rubbish, and "E-dffs" are amazing is ridiculous, you simply can't compare them out of context like that, and only an armchair "internet expert" would try to do so.


That same "expert" might also take some random video footage at face value, and decide that it meant one particular car was immensely superior to another car, but fail to establish the necessary and penitent objective facts that make such a projection in-valid.


This is why some people who are smart enough, sensible enough, and experienced enough to make a living from actually working in the automotive industry do that, and the others just sit at home on the internet and argue "you've got it all wrong".............

[Dave Hedgehog]

Chris Harris said:

Tom73 said:

Well then I suppose you're just the type that's easily impressed by d-list celebrities.

I once met Barbara Windsor on a holiday in 1986. Does that help my credentials?

So, this is quite good fun.

Are you actually a secret super car owner who has a P1, an Egg and pretty much everything else - which you might just be. They do exist in the oddest places. And are you also blessed with a talent to drive them in a way most owners cannot? Again, quite possible. In which case, just come out with it, pitch up to a track, meet me and show me exactly what you mean about the P1's diff issues and general lack of speed. I'll bring some data equipment and, say, an F12 and you can bring your 'Egg and P1 and show me why I was wrong and 'lazy' to be completely mind-fecked by the P1 when I drove it.

If none of the above applies, and I really have no idea if it does or not, then get back to watching videos and making absurd statements because, much like watching a very drunk person loose bladder control, it makes rather good spectator sport.

post of the year

[scarble]

Max_Torque said:

This is why some people who are smart enough, sensible enough, and experienced enough to make a living from actually working in the automotive industry do that, and the others just sit at home on the internet and argue "you've got it all wrong".............

Oh dear, I know I said I wasn't going to reply but..
I also make a living in the automotive industry, you are not the only automotive engineer here, just the loudest one.
As for the thinly veiled insults and poorly constructed arguments, I've learnt the hard way not to bother and I really am done with this thread

[anonymous-user]

scarble said:

Max_Torque said:

This is why some people who are smart enough, sensible enough, and experienced enough to make a living from actually working in the automotive industry do that, and the others just sit at home on the internet and argue "you've got it all wrong".............

Oh dear.
I also make a living in the automotive industry.
As for the thinly veiled insults and poorly constructed arguments, I've learnt the hard way not to bother

Er, don't take it the wrong way scarbs my old boy, that wasn't aimed at you chap!



ETA. Well except for the fact that saying "though MT will no doubt shout me down on this because modern car electronics are the best thing ever and completely infallible" does rather suggest a thinly veiled insult and a poorly constructed argument, as most LSDs these days, even "ones in the diff" are controlled by those "infallible" electronics you seem to not like much?

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 16th September 17:09

[EJH]

RemaL said:

Chris Harris said:

Tom73 said:

Well then I suppose you're just the type that's easily impressed by d-list celebrities.

I once met Barbara Windsor on a holiday in 1986. Does that help my credentials?

So, this is quite good fun.

Are you actually a secret super car owner who has a P1, an Egg and pretty much everything else - which you might just be. They do exist in the oddest places. And are you also blessed with a talent to drive them in a way most owners cannot? Again, quite possible. In which case, just come out with it, pitch up to a track, meet me and show me exactly what you mean about the P1's diff issues and general lack of speed. I'll bring some data equipment and, say, an F12 and you can bring your 'Egg and P1 and show me why I was wrong and 'lazy' to be completely mind-fecked by the P1 when I drove it.

If none of the above applies, and I really have no idea if it does or not, then get back to watching videos and making absurd statements because, much like watching a very drunk person loose bladder control, it makes rather good spectator sport.

ow now Mr Harris I don't feel you need to reply to forum banter. Don't waste your time. let others do that for you

I don’t know. Mr Harris' last paragraph is better than most of us can muster so I'm most grateful he fed the troll! "Spectator sport," is surely one of this year's finest post (at least when one is as puerile as I am)!

NotNormal said:

Odd thread

- first thought, hadn't school holidays finished.

- second thought, is this citylad/Apollo or Phil Bennett under a different account.

All a bit odd that someone can get so worked up over something with such little evidence and ultimately, who really cares!

Day release might be about right

6th former with a free period?

Actually, day release is the best call thus far!

[Inertiatic]

Mental

Edited by Inertiatic on Tuesday 16th September 18:18

[scarble]

Max_Torque said:

Er, don't take it the wrong way scarbs my old boy, that wasn't aimed at you chap!

ETA. Well except for the fact that saying "though MT will no doubt shout me down on this because modern car electronics are the best thing ever and completely infallible" does rather suggest a thinly veiled insult and a poorly constructed argument, as most LSDs these days, even "ones in the diff" are controlled by those "infallible" electronics you seem to not like much?

Well clearly the bit where you quoted me was aimed at me and the bit about "any objective engineer" which immediately followed the quote and you're right, I don't like electronics, you seem to like them too much and it was meant as more a gentle dig than an insult, the hyperbole being key, unlike questioning ones objectivity and accusing them of extreme errors
I never make errors of any sort whatsoever.
As for "these days", I'd rather drive an old car with a fully mechanical diff and no ABS
Now stop making me respond!

[Superhoop]

scarble said:

Well clearly the bit where you quoted me was aimed at me and the bit about "any objective engineer" which immediately followed the quote and you're right, I don't like electronics, you seem to like them too much and it was meant as more a gentle dig than an insult, the hyperbole being key, unlike questioning ones objectivity and accusing them of extreme errors
I never make errors of any sort whatsoever.
As for "these days", I'd rather drive an old car with a fully mechanical diff and no ABS
Now stop making me respond!

You never make errors? What ever?

Well I can point out one already... In you last post before this one you said:

scarble said:

and I really am done with this thread

So, either writing that ^^^ was in error because you did reply again, so clearly weren't "done with this thread"

Or writing your last post was an error.

Or I'm just due a whoosh parrot.

[Roo]

NotNormal said:

Odd thread

- first thought, hadn't school holidays finished.

- second thought, is this citylad/Apollo or Phil Bennett under a different account.

All a bit odd that someone can get so worked up over something with such little evidence and ultimately, who really cares!

Day release might be about right

He's the teacher and school's finished for the day so he's had to log off from the taxpayer funded computer and internet.

[Megaflow]

Wow. Just wow...

How has Tom73 kept his login this long?

[br d]

Tom73 said:

sc0tt said:

Tom, are you 41 years old?

Just checking whilst I draft a response.

Maybe. Why do you ask?

Edit: Please bite your tongue if you've whiffed something out. This is an anonymous account. Thanks.

Edited by Tom73 on Tuesday 16th September 15:37

Well Scott, have you "whiffed something out"? Because if you have I really think you should open a window.

[sc0tt]

br d said:

Tom73 said:

sc0tt said:

Tom, are you 41 years old?

Just checking whilst I draft a response.

Maybe. Why do you ask?

Edit: Please bite your tongue if you've whiffed something out. This is an anonymous account. Thanks.

Edited by Tom73 on Tuesday 16th September 15:37

Well Scott, have you "whiffed something out"? Because if you have I really think you should open a window.

Possibly brad.

[dudleybloke]

Don't worry.
Your secret is safe.

[sc0tt]

dudleybloke said:

Don't worry.
Your secret is safe.

Thank jesus.

[Streetrod]

Megaflow said:

Wow. Just wow...

How has Tom73 kept his login this long?

If I am not mistaken he did get a ban in the past but I cant remember if it was on here or over on Teamspeed

[dudleybloke]

sc0tt said:

dudleybloke said:

Don't worry.
Your secret is safe.

Thank jesus.

I'm 74.7735% certain he's not Jesus.

[Tom73]

peterg1955 said:

aw bless, did Mum say your tea is ready?

No your mum left hours ago.

mikebradford said:

Fair play to you for taking it.

No worries. It's not my first rodeo and I knew what I was getting myself into. I actually returned to this thread a few times and stared at the void with sad eyes as I was asking myself: "Where's Max_Dorque? Where's streetsod? Stevemongo, why has thou forsaken me??", so I was actually quite happy when the merry McMob arrived and gave this thread and it's author the attention it deserved.

ManOpener said:

"Visual" evidence, by the virtue of the fact that the human eye is deeply fallible, doesn't tend to have a great degree of validity, especially when it leads to a conclusion so utterly isolated from the evidence itself. Now, if you were actually talking something properly tangible, like segments of lap times, corner speeds et cetera, I'd be inclined to agree that you had a point. But fairly subjective perceptions of a single corner on a racing circuit, taken in isolation and without any actual context, aren't exactly brilliant as the basis for an estimation of an overall lap time, are they?

Well it's a lot more conclusive than any footage of Chris (or any other journo) drifting around a track and mindlessly orating about "a whole new thing" will ever be, and you boys were all fawning over those threads like someone handed you the mass-energy equivalence formula, so whether you like or not I will add a fistful of salt to your pseudo-scientific odyssey and scoff at it with a grounded sense of superiority.

scarble said:

Lots of fanboyism here, it's the same as the Rosberg/Hamilton debate, all driven by nationalism really, you all should be ashamed of your lack of logic.
I can't comment on which is best, I haven't driven any of them and never will, but I can comment that only Porsche have released a time (afaik even Koenigsegg haven't) and that generally speaking I don't consider brake based faux-diffs to be on par with proper diffs, though MT will no doubt shout me down on this because modern car electronics are the best
thing ever and completely infallible.
Not convinced by the egg either mind, GPS based suspension settings? Bleh. Though if you watch CvK's videos he is rather a clever chap and extremely passionate, even if his cars are laggy wooshers
I shan't be drawn any further than this, just felt the need to give poor Tom a little boost while you lot resort to poking fun and gang up like playground bullies.

Haha, cheers mate. I appreciate the support.

Max_Torque said:

Lets take "Brake steer" as an example again. Which of the following processes do you think Mclaren automotive carried out when developing the P1:

1) Go do the pub, get pissed, think, "hey boys, lets uses brake steer, it's wicked init"

or

2) Spend several hundred thousand pounds and many hundreds of man hrs benchmarking ALL the existing, and emerging chassis technologies before using objective data, simulation, and experience to determine which one of those solutions offered the best performance within the necessary criteria?

Ah the old "only the best will do for McLaren, racing pedigree" fanboy argument. I wasn't expecting that from you to be honest. Or maybe I was.

Look I think it goes without saying, given they've reused the same chassis and engine for three cars, that they do not have unlimited funds and can throw an endless amount of money at a project to optimize their cars. They had tons of problems with the 12C and so forth so it is not like they are without fault either.

Now compared to Koenigsegg or Pagani (Zonda), who have worked with their platform in a evolutionary small volume process for many, many years they are at a disadvantage. Compared to Porsche and Ferrari who can and will pour silly amounts of monies into a project they are at a disadvantage. So good on them for achieving so much in such a short time span on a inferior platform but lets also be realistic about what they are actually capable of.

Max_Torque said:

ETA. Well except for the fact that saying "though MT will no doubt shout me down on this because modern car electronics are the best thing ever and completely infallible" does rather suggest a thinly veiled insult and a poorly constructed argument, as most LSDs these days, even "ones in the diff" are controlled by those "infallible" electronics you seem to not like much?

Boy, you're just a autistic bundle of joy, aren't you?

He clearly didn't at it was clearly tongue in cheek.

Streetrod said:

If I am not mistaken he did get a ban in the past but I cant remember if it was on here or over on Teamspeed

Well, you are mistaken.

Edited by Tom73 on Wednesday 17th September 01:36

[MasterChief]

Max_Torque said:

want^^^^ ;-)

You have this thread phenomenal

Needed a good laugh. Thank you.

[Ksegger]

It's quite clear that the One:1 is in a league of its own when it comes to track performance, and I just can't wait to see it go for the record.

[zeppelin101]

I don't give a monkeys which is faster, however when a poorly constructed video is used to draw an argument like this which has nothing statistical or realistically meaningful to back it up is pretty daft.

You can't honestly be sticking by the fact that this is a legitimate analysis?