BMW i8 and giving hybrids an easy ride

BMW i8 and giving hybrids an easy ride

Author
Discussion

ORD

Original Poster:

18,086 posts

126 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
I just read Autocar's review of the i8. I remember an article from some months back in which Autocar promised to rate and rank electric and hybrid cars without applying any special treatment; they would, it was said, give electric cars the same rating as they would were a petrol or diesel car to perform in the same way (obviously taking into account the lower fuel costs, etc).

Well, that has well and truly gone out of the window. The i8 apparently handles very badly for a sports 2+2 and even quite badly for a GT, yet it is apparently nonetheless almost perfect because it looks nice and gets 40mpg as opposed to the high 20s that you would get in a 911 or similar...so 10mpg and lower tax makes up for bad handling in a sports car? Hmmmmm. 10mpg on the kind of miles that cars like this do is, what, a few hundred quid a year on a car that is depreciating by about £25k a year. Get real!

It looks a lot like special treatment to me, even leaving aside that the idea that any hybrid will have strong residuals is a complete joke. I bet no hybrid will be worth more than 20% of its current value in 3 or 4 years time, because it will be little more than a technological relic with no track record of medium term reliability. I wouldn't fancy driving around in a 5 year old car with two propulsion systems, two gearboxes and some very complex electrickery to mesh it all together.

ging84

8,827 posts

145 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
i've read a few review of this, not heard 1 complaint about the handling
and to be honest i'm not sure how it could be the case, it's not excessively heavy at 1.5 ton, most of the weight comes from batteries which are fairly low down and along the centre and the carbon chassis should be nice and stiff, so if anything it should corner like it's on rails, but i've not read anything particularly good about the handling either, so perhaps it hasn't met everyone's expectations

i very much doubt this is going to be a heavily depreciating car, mid engined cars never go cheap, you compare the price of an audi r8 that's 6 years old compared to amg SL or bmw M6 of the same age you could probably get both for less. The i8 is something even more rare and unique than an r8, i suspect there will be a waiting list, and i doubt it will be something they plan to run as a model long term

daveco

4,122 posts

206 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
In what way would it benefit Autocar to give the i8 a favourable review, considering just about every magazine/online source has given it the same?

I think there is positivity about the direction BMW are taking with the sport hybrid and the fact they made a 3 cylinder motor sound great and a car that could look and handle well, albeit with a premium price.

All the journalists are probably relieved it wasn't a sporty Prius!

ORD

Original Poster:

18,086 posts

126 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
daveco said:
In what way would it benefit Autocar to give the i8 a favourable review, considering just about every magazine/online source has given it the same?

I think there is positivity about the direction BMW are taking with the sport hybrid and the fact they made a 3 cylinder motor sound great and a car that could look and handle well, albeit with a premium price.

All the journalists are probably relieved it wasn't a sporty Prius!
Because it is new and shiny, they get all excited about it, I think. I am not saying that there is anything cynical going on - just that the commitment to not making excuses for hybrids seems to have been forgotten.

The engine note isn't real. It's pumped out through the sound system, which barely gets a mention, whereas VAG is rightly slagged off for doing the same thing with its high power 4 pots.

In response to the other poster, the difference is that an R8 has a lot of very goods sports car characteristics (lovely engine, manual box, etc). By contrast, the big pull for the i8 is that it is "state of the art", which it wont be for very long at all. As soon as the tech is outdated, what is its pull? Rarity is all that I can think of, but I don't know how much that is worth when it isn't matched with some kind of inherent charm (like a lovely V8 or top-draw handling).

Devil2575

13,400 posts

187 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
I'm not sure what the OP is on about.

Looking for a reason to be annoyed about the I8 perhaps?

unpc

2,831 posts

212 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
Not read anything yet to suggest it handles badly. Can you link an article? I do agree the powertrain in this will date quicker than yesterdays newspapers, such is the rate of development.

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
I've read a few things saying it's rather numb feeling , but what new car isn't?

JonnyVTEC

3,001 posts

174 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
unpc said:
Not read anything yet to suggest it handles badly. Can you link an article? I do agree the powertrain in this will date quicker than yesterdays newspapers, such is the rate of development.
When tech improves they will probably keep the 35 miles range or whatever and take the benefit of the material cost anyway, the other part is the very latest BMW engine in high output mode.

I saw something on Autoblog how i8's that were with customers were selling for £150k as people dont want to wait... hows that for residuals.

g3org3y

20,606 posts

190 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
unpc said:
Not read anything yet to suggest it handles badly. Can you link an article? I do agree the powertrain in this will date quicker than yesterdays newspapers, such is the rate of development.
+1

Recent videos by CH and Evo seem to suggest a decent handler though lacking the edge at 8/10+ where a 911 shines.

All the reviews I've read so far seem unanimous with praise.

Big E 118

2,408 posts

168 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
I've driven an i8 and it handles very well although I felt steering feel was lacking a bit, but then again I felt the same thing about the M4.

I was a complete sceptic about "hybrid sports cars" until I drove the i8, it has really changed my mind and I've realised that a fun car could be a hybrid. As a first of it's kind I think BMW have done an exceptional job and it certainly feels like you get a lot of car for £100k.

Am I buying one? Well no, to me it isn't quite as fun as my Porsche just yet but I certainly came away from my test drive thinking that in the era of lowering emmissions etc the future of sports cars is a lot brighter than I thought. The i8 convertible or next gen i8 might tempt me....

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
Devil2575 said:
I'm not sure what the OP is on about.

Looking for a reason to be annoyed about the I8 perhaps?
+1.




As far as i can tell, having only briefly driven the i8 around Millbrooks Hill route, the "handling" is very good, but the overall chassis "tuning" leans towards a sports GT (think 6series) rather than a raw sports car like a 911. ie, the car basically understeers at the limit, rather than oversteers.

So if you're going to do Trackdays, you're much better off with the 911.

The other 99.9% of buyers, who won't be going anywhere near a track, will think it handles fine!

Personally, i don't think the i8 is a 911 competitor, as it's much more complex than that, i think it's more a competitor for the big GTs etc

rovermorris999

5,195 posts

188 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
I think early adopters of most new tech get their fingers well and truly singed. Electric cars will be no different to computers or phones.
http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technolo...

ORD

Original Poster:

18,086 posts

126 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
+1.




As far as i can tell, having only briefly driven the i8 around Millbrooks Hill route, the "handling" is very good, but the overall chassis "tuning" leans towards a sports GT (think 6series) rather than a raw sports car like a 911. ie, the car basically understeers at the limit, rather than oversteers.

So if you're going to do Trackdays, you're much better off with the 911.

The other 99.9% of buyers, who won't be going anywhere near a track, will think it handles fine!

Personally, i don't think the i8 is a 911 competitor, as it's much more complex than that, i think it's more a competitor for the big GTs etc
Can anyone express a view on PH without being accused of having an axe to grind? How about that I am interested in cars, and sports cars in particular, and don't understand the rush to embrace technology that isn't quite ready to deliver seriously good cars at sensible prices? Is that a good enough reason to express a view?

The Autocar review says essentially what you say, MT - it handles like a big GT (and not a very good one). I cant be alone in thinking that this is a pretty massive failing for a "sports car" 2+2 that costs £100k.

Autocar say, in essence, that it understeers quite a bit and then, beyond that, is quite unpredictable and synthetic. It says a lot that its wet time on the track is far far slower than a 911, whereas its dry time is close - it is essentially not a very well balanced or composed car.

98elise

26,372 posts

160 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
ORD said:
I just read Autocar's review of the i8. I remember an article from some months back in which Autocar promised to rate and rank electric and hybrid cars without applying any special treatment; they would, it was said, give electric cars the same rating as they would were a petrol or diesel car to perform in the same way (obviously taking into account the lower fuel costs, etc).

Well, that has well and truly gone out of the window. The i8 apparently handles very badly for a sports 2+2 and even quite badly for a GT, yet it is apparently nonetheless almost perfect because it looks nice and gets 40mpg as opposed to the high 20s that you would get in a 911 or similar...so 10mpg and lower tax makes up for bad handling in a sports car? Hmmmmm. 10mpg on the kind of miles that cars like this do is, what, a few hundred quid a year on a car that is depreciating by about £25k a year. Get real!

It looks a lot like special treatment to me, even leaving aside that the idea that any hybrid will have strong residuals is a complete joke. I bet no hybrid will be worth more than 20% of its current value in 3 or 4 years time, because it will be little more than a technological relic with no track record of medium term reliability. I wouldn't fancy driving around in a 5 year old car with two propulsion systems, two gearboxes and some very complex electrickery to mesh it all together.
Is the Prius an unreliable relic depreciating like a stone? No, its one of the slowest depreciating cars you can buy, and they are very very reliable. The oldest ones are well over a decade old now, so plenty of evidence to back it up.

My local station taxi rank is full of them.

Edited by 98elise on Wednesday 17th September 12:49

ManOpener

12,467 posts

168 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
ORD said:
Can anyone express a view on PH without being accused of having an axe to grind?
Can you post direct quotations from the article that make the "bad, big GT" handling claim? Because without that, this all sounds very much like another "electric cars are rubbish" rant.

ORD

Original Poster:

18,086 posts

126 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
ManOpener said:
Can you post direct quotations from the article that make the "bad, big GT" handling claim? Because without that, this all sounds very much like another "electric cars are rubbish" rant.
Read it yourself! It's not available online. It says what I said it says.

ManOpener

12,467 posts

168 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
ORD said:
ManOpener said:
Can you post direct quotations from the article that make the "bad, big GT" handling claim? Because without that, this all sounds very much like another "electric cars are rubbish" rant.
Read it yourself! It's not available online. It says what I said it says.
So is the printed one different to this one on the Autocar website?. Which says...

Autocar said:
On handling precision and that final sliver of driver engagement, the BMW falls short of brilliance. But it’s good, and almost there. Certainly good enough to consider the car an amazing success in its own hyper-specialised niche.
Autocar said:
The car’s handling stands up more stoutly to inspection – but not indefinitely. Body control is excellent; steering response equally immediate. Lateral grip levels could be higher, particularly at the front wheels, which begin to scrabble and scream under load if you harry them.

Drive intelligently though, using weight transfer to give the steering authority on turn-in, and the i8 responds for the most part like any good mid-engined machine should: with some balance and alacrity, but exceptional in neither.

The rear axle is always glued to its line, giving dependable stability. It declines any attempt to adjust your arc through a corner with a bit of throttle-steering. That's a typical facet of a car that just doesn’t respond well to being driven hard, and one that approaches its adhesive limits a bit early for our tastes.
I'm not the only person asking you to link to the article.

ORD

Original Poster:

18,086 posts

126 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
ManOpener said:
ORD said:
ManOpener said:
Can you post direct quotations from the article that make the "bad, big GT" handling claim? Because without that, this all sounds very much like another "electric cars are rubbish" rant.
Read it yourself! It's not available online. It says what I said it says.
So is the printed one different to this one on the Autocar website?. Which says...

Autocar said:
On handling precision and that final sliver of driver engagement, the BMW falls short of brilliance. But it’s good, and almost there. Certainly good enough to consider the car an amazing success in its own hyper-specialised niche.
Autocar said:
The car’s handling stands up more stoutly to inspection – but not indefinitely. Body control is excellent; steering response equally immediate. Lateral grip levels could be higher, particularly at the front wheels, which begin to scrabble and scream under load if you harry them.

Drive intelligently though, using weight transfer to give the steering authority on turn-in, and the i8 responds for the most part like any good mid-engined machine should: with some balance and alacrity, but exceptional in neither.

The rear axle is always glued to its line, giving dependable stability. It declines any attempt to adjust your arc through a corner with a bit of throttle-steering. That's a typical facet of a car that just doesn’t respond well to being driven hard, and one that approaches its adhesive limits a bit early for our tastes.
I'm not the only person asking you to link to the article.
I'll try once more - the article is not available online (yet). It is in today's magazine.

ManOpener

12,467 posts

168 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
Allow me to rephrase; as you seem to have direct access to the article and I don't, do you mind quoting, verbatim, the sentence or two where they claim it handles badly even for a GT? Given you've already written several hundred words on the subject, a couple of dozen lifted straight from it's hallowed pages shouldn't be too taxing?

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
ORD said:
Max_Torque said:
+1.




As far as i can tell, having only briefly driven the i8 around Millbrooks Hill route, the "handling" is very good, but the overall chassis "tuning" leans towards a sports GT (think 6series) rather than a raw sports car like a 911. ie, the car basically understeers at the limit, rather than oversteers.

So if you're going to do Trackdays, you're much better off with the 911.

The other 99.9% of buyers, who won't be going anywhere near a track, will think it handles fine!

Personally, i don't think the i8 is a 911 competitor, as it's much more complex than that, i think it's more a competitor for the big GTs etc
Can anyone express a view on PH without being accused of having an axe to grind? How about that I am interested in cars, and sports cars in particular, and don't understand the rush to embrace technology that isn't quite ready to deliver seriously good cars at sensible prices? Is that a good enough reason to express a view?

The Autocar review says essentially what you say, MT - it handles like a big GT (and not a very good one). I cant be alone in thinking that this is a pretty massive failing for a "sports car" 2+2 that costs £100k.

Autocar say, in essence, that it understeers quite a bit and then, beyond that, is quite unpredictable and synthetic. It says a lot that its wet time on the track is far far slower than a 911, whereas its dry time is close - it is essentially not a very well balanced or composed car.
No, you are perfectly entitled to your own views! Just don't be surprise when other people don;t hold the same views, especially, when they can see valid reasons to hold different views.

For example:

ORD said:
It says a lot that its wet time on the track is far far slower than a 911, whereas its dry time is close - it is essentially not a very well balanced or composed car.
You assume this^^^ is because the i8 is "not balanced" because it suits your viewpoint that the car doesn't "Handle" very well for a 100K sports car. Yet, in that case, it would be "not balanced" in the wet or the dry, that doesn't change the "balance" of the car.

So here's an alternate view: TYRES!! What sort of tyres do you think are fitted to the 911, and what sort to the i8, and why would they be different in the "wet"?

Think about the big picture: Porsche sells 911s. How many fewer will they sell, or what negative reaction will you get if they fit high performance sports tyres, which have a very broad grip window in terms of temperature and humidity, but, due to their high silica content, also are very draggy, and hence generate a few more g/km of co2.

Now consider the same decision making process on the i8? Do you come up with the same answer?


Consider that^^^ for a moment, then get back to me ;-)