RE: Lotus jobs at risk

Author
Discussion

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Friday 19th September 2014
quotequote all
I think the pricing of cars like the first Élan would suggest otherwise - but perhaps the modern meaning of the term is different, in the sense that the difference between premium and non-premium cars on the same underpinnings can be very superficial.

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Friday 19th September 2014
quotequote all
I am very fond of my rebodied Celica - how are you finding your rebodied MGF?

wink

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Friday 19th September 2014
quotequote all
Hmm, post missing there?

kambites

67,460 posts

220 months

Friday 19th September 2014
quotequote all
I suppose to me, especially recently, "premium brand" means "a brand which you pay a premium for" rather than having anything to do with absolute pricing or quality. Premium brands don't necessarily sell high quality products and high quality products aren't necessarily sold by premium brands.

Kolbenkopp

2,343 posts

150 months

Friday 19th September 2014
quotequote all
I find that surprising. What's the brand's image in the UK then? Here in Germany they are seen as something very exotic, borderline a super car brand. Only one that most of the unwashed will still associate with a 70s Esprit and James Bond, but have not heard much of lately.

kambites

67,460 posts

220 months

Friday 19th September 2014
quotequote all
Kolbenkopp said:
I find that surprising. What's the brand's image in the UK then? Here in Germany they are seen as something very exotic, borderline a super car brand. Only one that most of the unwashed will still associate with a 70s Esprit and James Bond, but have not heard much of lately.
In the UK, I think "geeky" is probably the best single word for their brand image.

clarki

1,312 posts

218 months

Friday 19th September 2014
quotequote all
Kolbenkopp said:
I find that surprising. What's the brand's image in the UK then? Here in Germany they are seen as something very exotic, borderline a super car brand. Only one that most of the unwashed will still associate with a 70s Esprit and James Bond, but have not heard much of lately.
I agree, growing up Lotus was deffo an exotic/premium brand. No longer i'm afraid.

Don't get me wrong i'm not a downer against Lotus, back in 2001 my brother bought a beautiful S2 elise which he enjoyed for a number of years.

However, the innovation thing doesn't seem to happen these days either. Indeed compared with other manufacturers in recent times it's just borrowed stuff and existing tech.

Remember building a car that people on Pistonheads approve of will get a car company nowhere. The masses want twinclutchs, bluetooth, stop-start, hard-drives, sport/comfort modes, service plans, affordable finance, a car that is more than just a 1 trick pony, etc, etc...

Hopefully this new fella knows what he's doing. Then maybe a Lotus will be back on many people's shopping list (including mine)

DonkeyApple

54,921 posts

168 months

Friday 19th September 2014
quotequote all
Kolbenkopp said:
Yep, I think that is a big part of the problem.

The Elise is fine as it is. It is difficult to sell though, because perceived as not good value for money. A new base 136 hp Elise costs €40k here. Which also is the street price for e.g. well equipped M235i. And for less than half that, you can now get a hot hatch with stats in the same league as the Elise.

Big part of the appeal in 96 was the "Giant Killer" image. That's gone now.
There is also the issue that there are two core age groups who are would be buyers of 2 seater Lotus's and that is the 30 something's who traditionally have the money, the time and few practical requirements and the over 55s who are in a similar financial and time allocation situation.

The cost of living has totally decimated the 30 something market. We've seen it in other markets which are actually quite comparable. As house prices have risen the 30 something's of a decade ago were on the ladder and laughing with equity and spending. Today's 30 something's haven't yet been able to get on the ladder and are certainly not in the mood to splash on a fun, impractical car.

At the other end, the over 55s either aren't spending on toys because they have woken up to a pension too small to see them through or they have the money but are buying more luxurious cars such as F Types, Porsches or SLKs etc.

If we look at the traditional buyers of the Lotus product, in the UK the cost of living has decimated their potential client base and if you look down the line there is nothing coming up from the younger demographics. It's why so many firms have become reliant on overseas markets and tailor their product to these ahead of the UK.


daytona365

1,773 posts

163 months

Friday 19th September 2014
quotequote all
What's this, another overly expensive British bag of nails with it's heart in the early 60's going bust ? Never.

Ozzie Osmond

21,189 posts

245 months

Friday 19th September 2014
quotequote all
kambites said:
I don't think Lotus have ever been a "premium brand", have they? Neither have they ever really been techonology focussed - inovation, yes; technology, no.
I would think the closest they got was when James Bond was driving an Esprit Turbo and the properly sorted and Toyota-ised Éclat - the Lotus Excel - was a genuine alternative for the aspiring executive who didn't want a Porsche 944. The Etna V8 concept would have taken them even further up market amongst genuine supercars but never got off the drawing board.

But then it all went pear-shaped when GM bought the company and some bright spark decided to invent "the front-wheel drive sportscar" and built it out of a 1600 cc Isuzu engine/transmission. Meanwhile in USA the same GM had just stopped selling the mid-engined V6 Pontiac Fiero. Now in my opinion if Lotus had been let loose to sort out the Fiero that might have produced an interesting car.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 19th September 2014
quotequote all
Cowardly little word. If you want to cut off funding to something, or destroy an institution, you speak in public about 'reforming' it. Equally, if you want to sack hundreds of people because you have no vision for your business, you do the tough-talk thing and talk about 'restructuring'. 'Delayering' is another management b/s-speak classic.

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Friday 19th September 2014
quotequote all
kambites said:
In the UK, I think "geeky" is probably the best single word for their brand image.
Hmm, I wouldn't say so - or at least, not amongst those who haven't met the owners wink

bobberz

1,832 posts

198 months

Saturday 20th September 2014
quotequote all
In the US, they're considered somewhat exotic. I think one of the things that's hurting Lotus, ATM, is the fact that they currently can't sell the Elise here (due to the 1.6 engine not meeting US emissions laws). I don't have any sales data, but the Mk2 Elise/Exige seems to have sold very well here. Very popular cars and, unlike the UK, we haven't had many similar lightweight, trackday-style cars. We never got the Opel GT/Vauxhall VX220, ReanaultSport Spider, modern Ginettas, etc. and things like Caterhams aren't available as factory-built cars here. If you wanted a factory-built, street-legal, lightweight sports car in America, the Elise/Exige was pretty much your only option.


Tuna

19,930 posts

283 months

Saturday 20th September 2014
quotequote all
clarki said:
Remember building a car that people on Pistonheads approve of will get a car company nowhere. The masses want twinclutchs, bluetooth, stop-start, hard-drives, sport/comfort modes, service plans, affordable finance, a car that is more than just a 1 trick pony, etc, etc...
Twin clutches, bluetooth, stop-start, hard-drives and trick suspension modes aren't something Lotus can deliver in anything resembling a cost effective package, or whilst maintaining the 'less is more' philosophy that makes their cars unique. If they start trying to fight that battle, they'll instantly loose, because the large scale manufacturers have had years to perfect them, and engineer them down to a reliable, affordable option.

That's not to say their cars can't be fantastic places to be, but tech trickery is never going to be something that sells a Lotus. If I want an amazing stereo, I'll buy a Bentley or a Merc.

The Elise was born out of all of the limitations that they were faced with. No money to build a traditional chassis? Aluminium and glue made for a package that was affordable in small production runs (but scales very badly - one of the reasons the Elise costs more than an MX-5 and always will). The Evora was part of a bigger plan (pre Bahar) that got lost in the mix, but may yet produce other fruit. Right now, their biggest markets are outside the UK, and outside the EU. Whether those markets need a new car just now, I don't know - with only a handful of dealers, it's hard to tell (and what do I know about Chinese car buyers).

The big point here is that they are selling cars in fair numbers after years of uncertainty and confusion. Grand gestures and betting the farm on new models will not magically turn them into high volume manufacturers. What they do need is to rebuild some sort of reputation for being a stable manufacturer, to build markets where they already have a great reputation, and to consolidate their finances. Lotus Engineering is always at the mercy of the natural cycles in the industry and it needs to weather those. I'm hoping the new boss will focus on these boring details rather than feeding the badly thought out fantasies we get on threads like these.

Kolbenkopp

2,343 posts

150 months

Saturday 20th September 2014
quotequote all
kambites said:
In the UK, I think "geeky" is probably the best single word for their brand image.
Not the worst place to start from, but also not as good as I was expecting.

Given the racing history and the cool stuff they turned out over the years, they should be some kind of national treasure IMO, just as Porsche is here. I think they are doing an absolutely incredible job, especially if one takes into account what limited resources they have.

DonkeyApple said:
If we look at the traditional buyers of the Lotus product, in the UK the cost of living has decimated their potential client base and if you look down the line there is nothing coming up from the younger demographics. It's why so many firms have become reliant on overseas markets and tailor their product to these ahead of the UK.
Thanks for these insights, had not thought of that at all. Interesting and makes a lot of sense. If the ~30 crowd isn't buying, well people 50+ will find the stuff they currently make to "hard core". The hope is in export then, because I think world wide, the brand still has very reasonable status and "pull".

But that would have to be Asia, America and perhaps the middle east for silly super cars.

Europe in general is still difficult. Even in Germany, with the perceived strong economy, rents are rising sharply (people on average still buy a lot less property) and young well earning folks are taxed out of buying toys. Earn €5k / month as a single, keep just a tad more than half. The average age of a German Porsche customer is currently 53 and climbing -- from 49 in 2008...

clarki said:
However, the innovation thing doesn't seem to happen these days either. Indeed compared with other manufacturers in recent times it's just borrowed stuff and existing tech.
Yep, sad as it is I agree. Takes money and/or exceptional teams and leaders to innovate. I imagine all the management changes over the last years did not help. Organisations tend to be busy with sorting internal stuff out a lot when this happens. Been in that situation in my job a few times and that's when I update my resume and pack my stuff.

Takes some real effort and a special team to pull something as good as the Elise from the bag. It is not going to happen every two years. And objectively, in FI spec, the Elise is still better than say a 4C just launched.

But it is same old, same old plus a thousand special editions. They badly need something to grab headlines. And they have a big risk that due to emission legislation, mainstream manufacturers will get back to focus on light weight. The next next totally average generation of mid range Fiesta might weigh 900 kg and have 140 hp.


blueg33

35,574 posts

223 months

Saturday 20th September 2014
quotequote all
I think Lotus brand visibility is a big issue in the UK, I actually think that the Evora could be a bigger seller than it is, given the right exposure.

This comment from a new work colleague sums up the problem. He has a 911.

"Evora what's that?". I then meet him by coincidence in the car park. He sees the Evora and says "Wow, who would have a Porsche when you could have something like that".

I would say he is a typical Porsche buyer, mid life crisis purchase, bought the car using his bonus, not a petrol head.


andy_s

19,397 posts

258 months

Saturday 20th September 2014
quotequote all
It's almost as if the V6 Exige doesn't exist, a few trumpets at launch where most people didn't even note the new engine thinking it just yet another breathed over SE. It's got to be one of the best sports cars out there but very little exposure...even on these last few pages. Perhaps a more substantial external facelift would have marked it out a little more, who knows.

kambites

67,460 posts

220 months

Saturday 20th September 2014
quotequote all
It won evo car of the year. That's a fair chunk of exposure amongst petrol heads and who else was ever going to buy one anyway?

Doesn't seem to be selling much though. I see quite a few Evoras around, I've seen one Exige V6.

bencollins

3,486 posts

204 months

Saturday 20th September 2014
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
Kolbenkopp said:
Yep, I think that is a big part of the problem.

The Elise is fine as it is. It is difficult to sell though, because perceived as not good value for money. A new base 136 hp Elise costs €40k here. Which also is the street price for e.g. well equipped M235i. And for less than half that, you can now get a hot hatch with stats in the same league as the Elise.

Big part of the appeal in 96 was the "Giant Killer" image. That's gone now.
There is also the issue that there are two core age groups who are would be buyers of 2 seater Lotus's and that is the 30 something's who traditionally have the money, the time and few practical requirements and the over 55s who are in a similar financial and time allocation situation.

The cost of living has totally decimated the 30 something market. We've seen it in other markets which are actually quite comparable. As house prices have risen the 30 something's of a decade ago were on the ladder and laughing with equity and spending. Today's 30 something's haven't yet been able to get on the ladder and are certainly not in the mood to splash on a fun, impractical car.

At the other end, the over 55s either aren't spending on toys because they have woken up to a pension too small to see them through or they have the money but are buying more luxurious cars such as F Types, Porsches or SLKs etc.

If we look at the traditional buyers of the Lotus product, in the UK the cost of living has decimated their potential client base and if you look down the line there is nothing coming up from the younger demographics. It's why so many firms have become reliant on overseas markets and tailor their product to these ahead of the UK.
This is another murder on the orient express thread.
Lots of reasons cited, two very good ones here.
Nearly all the points in the thread are true.
Young mortgage slaves dont have disposable income these days in our nonetarism economy based on loanism, new very competent cars cost £10-15k which thrash the pants off 70s supercars on a track
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=budge...
What is the point of a sports car, ordinary cars are so good.
I think the should switch allegiance to Renault who have better engine tech than Toyota who have been in the doldrums for 20 years, engine wise. Dump the steel of the new twingo and built all the gubbins into a new chassis. Job jobbed.
Anyhoo sales are up substantially this year so not all doom and gloom! biggrin

k-ink

9,070 posts

178 months

Saturday 20th September 2014
quotequote all
Impasse said:
ravon said:
I'd like to know precisely what happened to the £11m ( of our taxes ) that Vince Cable so proudly gave them not six months ago, which according to Lotus own press machine "would ensure more than 300 new jobs".
As before, it doesn't seem to have ever made it out of HMG's bank account and into Group Lotus's.
That is madness. With that sort of waste I can see them having no option but to scale back to some sort of Ginetta / Caterham style company. Forget my previous day dreams of developing anything.