Sacrilege engine I4 engine swap for old italian classic
Discussion
Been offered an old italian classic near me with fooked engine that even if fixed is notoriously unreliable, self imolating and does 11mpg............. so thinking get that engine out tackle that (much) later and put a newer na I4, preferably italian thats sounds great. Really go to town on the tuning of it etc.
The best ive come up with is the Tipo 16v 139hp which is apparently characterful.
With fancy everything, exhaust, ITBs, ported, lightweight pistons perhaps this will be about 165hp, not far off the original output (which was probably b
ks anyhoo).
For those who think this is sacrilege etc please vent your spleen then go away.
I want a car that lives and gets driven, 11mpg and self imolation is not gonna work day to day.
So any better engine suggestions?
And do such engines exist somewhere to buy instead of starting from scratch, the fiat forum? where do i go.
Possibly just a daydream, but nice winter project perhaps.
The best ive come up with is the Tipo 16v 139hp which is apparently characterful.
With fancy everything, exhaust, ITBs, ported, lightweight pistons perhaps this will be about 165hp, not far off the original output (which was probably b
ks anyhoo).For those who think this is sacrilege etc please vent your spleen then go away.
I want a car that lives and gets driven, 11mpg and self imolation is not gonna work day to day.
So any better engine suggestions?
And do such engines exist somewhere to buy instead of starting from scratch, the fiat forum? where do i go.
Possibly just a daydream, but nice winter project perhaps.
Two Ms in immolating. I'm thinking Gamma maybe?
The Tipo engine is (once you've uprated the pathetic cambelt) a very strong and capable engine, expensive to tune properly though due to it's rarity - nothing is available off the shelf although there are a couple of specialists who could build it, the price will soon put you off that one though.
The Alfa engine (cambelt aside) isn't as strong or capable, but not a bad engine.
The Tipo engine is (once you've uprated the pathetic cambelt) a very strong and capable engine, expensive to tune properly though due to it's rarity - nothing is available off the shelf although there are a couple of specialists who could build it, the price will soon put you off that one though.
The Alfa engine (cambelt aside) isn't as strong or capable, but not a bad engine.
hi, molte grazie for the input folks.
Need to think this through as dont want to make an impulse purchase.
Of course there are ready baked zetecs but that seems wrong. i suppose by the time you have changed to ITBs and new management then only the capacity is relevant and what the bottom end can handle.
Assuming this is the fiat, it probably has the same crankshaft that gets turbocharged in the coupe.
Just need a beefier cam belt by the sounds of it.
I'd prefer not to mention the car as it might get snaffooed.
Need to think this through as dont want to make an impulse purchase.
Of course there are ready baked zetecs but that seems wrong. i suppose by the time you have changed to ITBs and new management then only the capacity is relevant and what the bottom end can handle.
Assuming this is the fiat, it probably has the same crankshaft that gets turbocharged in the coupe.
Just need a beefier cam belt by the sounds of it.
I'd prefer not to mention the car as it might get snaffooed.
On the assumption that it's flat 4, FWD, 2 litre, then the obvious choices are Scooby (cheap, plentiful, fairly reliable). Porker (none of the above!), or the 2 litre pushrod flat 4 out of a Flavia/2000.
But on your spec, I'm still not sure what you have to start with!
If it is L4 and has the Lampredi Twin Cam engine, just post it off to Guy Croft for a rebuild. It's the great Italian 2 litre engine, but doesn't suffer fools gladly.
Failing that, Toyota's 3SGTE (MR2 turbo, etc.) is basically the Lampredi engine production engineered and made tougher as is the Nissan S14 (now finding its way into a few Alfa 105 series).
But on your spec, I'm still not sure what you have to start with!
If it is L4 and has the Lampredi Twin Cam engine, just post it off to Guy Croft for a rebuild. It's the great Italian 2 litre engine, but doesn't suffer fools gladly.
Failing that, Toyota's 3SGTE (MR2 turbo, etc.) is basically the Lampredi engine production engineered and made tougher as is the Nissan S14 (now finding its way into a few Alfa 105 series).
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Sunday 21st September 12:26
A bit difficult to say much If you can't name the car yet, the crank in the Fiat engine is steel and if built properly is capable of coping with 500bhp so shouldn't be a problem in an N/A.
The cylinder head is a work of art, it's up there with some of the best ever made - much better than a Cossy in fact.
The cylinder head is a work of art, it's up there with some of the best ever made - much better than a Cossy in fact.
The Tipo 16V is basically the same unit they used in the Coupe 16V and 16V Turbo. 150bhp N/A and 210+ depending on how much you have or want to spend on the turbo engine.
The N/A 20V is 155bhp and I would suggest a cheaper Bravo HGT as a donor but get the tape measure out first.
If we're talking about an X1/9 the Tipo block will marry straight up to the gearbox but for longer legs you could do with the internals or complete box from a Strada Abarth.
The N/A 20V is 155bhp and I would suggest a cheaper Bravo HGT as a donor but get the tape measure out first.
If we're talking about an X1/9 the Tipo block will marry straight up to the gearbox but for longer legs you could do with the internals or complete box from a Strada Abarth.
Recent relevant Fiat Group engines are, off the top of my head:
- Fiat Coupe, NA or turbo
- Alfa 1.6/1.8/2.0 Twin Spark in 14x/155/156/16x cars
- Alfa 2.0 JTS, direct injection, in 156/GT
- Various GM-derived Alfa JTS engines in 159 era cars
- Fiat/Alfa 1.4 Multiair, NA or turbo
- Alfa 1750 TBi (turbo) as per 159/Giulietta or 4C
Since you have free choice, don't bother with the 156-era JTS, despite my having one, as it has carbon build up issues.
The Twin Sparks are OK but have weak cambelts and their bigs ends are precious about oil.
If you can eschew NA then the 1750 would be nice - need to find a written-off Giulietta QV or similar.
Autolusso do off-the-shelf engines but I don't know what specifically.
- Fiat Coupe, NA or turbo
- Alfa 1.6/1.8/2.0 Twin Spark in 14x/155/156/16x cars
- Alfa 2.0 JTS, direct injection, in 156/GT
- Various GM-derived Alfa JTS engines in 159 era cars
- Fiat/Alfa 1.4 Multiair, NA or turbo
- Alfa 1750 TBi (turbo) as per 159/Giulietta or 4C
Since you have free choice, don't bother with the 156-era JTS, despite my having one, as it has carbon build up issues.
The Twin Sparks are OK but have weak cambelts and their bigs ends are precious about oil.
If you can eschew NA then the 1750 would be nice - need to find a written-off Giulietta QV or similar.
Autolusso do off-the-shelf engines but I don't know what specifically.
TheRealFingers99 said:
On the assumption that it's flat 4, FWD, 2 litre, then the obvious choices are Scooby (cheap, plentiful, fairly reliable). Porker (none of the above!), or the 2 litre pushrod flat 4 out of a Flavia/2000.
But on your spec, I'm still not sure what you have to start with!
If it is L4 and has the Lampredi Twin Cam engine, just post it off to Guy Croft for a rebuild whilst remortgaging your house to pay the bills. It's the great Italian 2 litre engine, but doesn't suffer fools gladly.
Failing that, Toyota's 3SGTE (MR2 turbo, etc.) is basically the Lampredi engine production engineered and made tougher as is the Nissan S14 (now finding its way into a few Alfa 105 series).
EFA. But on your spec, I'm still not sure what you have to start with!
If it is L4 and has the Lampredi Twin Cam engine, just post it off to Guy Croft for a rebuild whilst remortgaging your house to pay the bills. It's the great Italian 2 litre engine, but doesn't suffer fools gladly.
Failing that, Toyota's 3SGTE (MR2 turbo, etc.) is basically the Lampredi engine production engineered and made tougher as is the Nissan S14 (now finding its way into a few Alfa 105 series).
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Sunday 21st September 12:26
I don't think the 3S or the S14 share much in common with the Lampredi at all.
226bhp said:
EFA.
I don't think the 3S or the S14 share much in common with the Lampredi at all.
They actually share nothing. I don't think the 3S or the S14 share much in common with the Lampredi at all.
But both the 3SGTE and the Lampredi 16v turbo have:
belt driven cams
shim in bucket
16v
Iron blocks, alloy heads
Steel cranks
and so on.
Toyota would have been barking mad not to look at the Lampredi lump when designing the 3SGTE.
TheRealFingers99 said:
226bhp said:
EFA.
I don't think the 3S or the S14 share much in common with the Lampredi at all.
They actually share nothing. I don't think the 3S or the S14 share much in common with the Lampredi at all.
But both the 3SGTE and the Lampredi 16v turbo have:
belt driven cams
shim in bucket
16v
Iron blocks, alloy heads
Steel cranks
and so on.
Toyota would have been barking mad not to look at the Lampredi lump when designing the 3SGTE.
If Toyota did look at Lampredis design they didn't take much from it. The heads bear no resemblance at all and are nowhere near as good, it doesn't have any balancer shafts, the bore and stroke combo make it a 'square' engine and the block cracks if you give it too much power.
Yamaha did a lot of the design for Toyota, especially the heads, so you'll probably find more in common with them on an FZR 1000....
226bhp said:
And so do many other manufacturers engines. That's a bit like saying a dog is like a human being because they both have eyes, ears and internal organs.
Or in turn, that Hondas 16v lumps are like Lancia DOHC V fours because they have screw valve adjustment. I mean, really! 226bhp said:
If Toyota did look at Lampredis design they didn't take much from it. The heads bear no resemblance at all and are nowhere near as good, it doesn't have any balancer shafts, the bore and stroke combo make it a 'square' engine and the block cracks if you give it too much power.
Yamaha did a lot of the design for Toyota, especially the heads, so you'll probably find more in common with them on an FZR 1000....
I will look at the pics in Mr. Croft's book and report back. Yamaha did a lot of the design for Toyota, especially the heads, so you'll probably find more in common with them on an FZR 1000....
Too much power in the case of the Toyota lump is just short of 700bhp, which is pretty good by any standards, and better, AFAIK, than anyone has got from the Lancia block and head. Doesn't everyone going for real power delete the balancer shaft (which, IIRC, were a later addition)?
Now you've got me in a place I didn't want to go, comparing two great engines.
It's true that some pre rev 3 blocks cracked, but no-one seems to know why.
bencollins said:
an old italian classic (that) is notoriously unreliable, self imolating and does 11mpg............. about 165hp, not far off the original output (which was probably bks anyhoo).
The only car I can think of that comes close to that description is an early Maserati Biturbo. If that is the case, could you fit an Alfa V6? The 2.5 with 190bhp from the 156 must be cheap as chips and easy to find. It would sound a lot nicer and more authentic than an I4 as well.ks anyhoo).Gassing Station | Alfa Romeo, Fiat & Lancia | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff