Discussion
garyhun said:
So if there is so much 'care' for the NHS, why don't the Unions call for a strike demanding the removal of all the waste and excess 
but what would unison do without it;sa paid by the NHS full time officers ... ( pay it;s full time officers from it;s own funds like the RCN do ?) also generally the political commissars fall into two groups failed managers fro m industry and 'ideologically correct' whizz kids with immaculate neue arbeit credentials.
mph1977 said:
Service impriovement , in both the private secotr and in charities is done by the peopelwho actually do a job / manage the service , yes you hasve the odd Six sigma black belt floatign around larger organisations who soely does that , but not in the way the NHS misused Service improvment as yet another place to embed the Commissars to ensure tractor production figures were beaten ...
god forbid you actually let some clinicians go and do things like 6Sigma greenbelt so they can embed service improvement into the services they work in , no instead we'll employ some failed baked been stacking manager from the co-op ... who then wonders why clinicians are 'resistant' and 'not team players' when the gaming of systems which is common in logistics isn't applied to patients ...
wtf does any of that mean?god forbid you actually let some clinicians go and do things like 6Sigma greenbelt so they can embed service improvement into the services they work in , no instead we'll employ some failed baked been stacking manager from the co-op ... who then wonders why clinicians are 'resistant' and 'not team players' when the gaming of systems which is common in logistics isn't applied to patients ...
Sheepshanks said:
PhilboSE said:
The biggest problem is that the NHS will expand to absorb all available funds.
UK is quite low down the list of per capita spending on health already.Would you be prepared to pay £2,000 to resolve your own health issue?
Would you be prepared to contribute 2,000 to resolve health issues of the general populace?
As I've said, you could double the NHS budget and it would absorb it all. Things would improve, of course, but then people would get used to the status quo and then there would be pressures to increase the budget further every year, or have NHS "cuts".
As an example, 10 years ago MRI's were used for serious diagnostic issues but these days they are used routinely to eliminate possible secondary/tertiary diagnoses after a differential diagnosis has already been made. That's all very good for public health, but it does cost money.
PhilboSE said:
Yes, but that's because we pool our resources. People will always be prepared to spend more on their own health.
and the things like
A. we only have to bill for a small amount (1. none UK British treamtents etc e.g. the Manx and CI residents who get referredto mainland hospitals 2. NHS private units and 'amenity' payments in NHS funded beds - although an amenity bed lmeans little in a hospital where 50 % of beds are in en-suite single rooms and the beays are now 4 bedded with an 'ensuite' 3. very small vaolumes of none entitled inpatient care ) and chase a tiny amount of the billing for none entitled inpatient care ( ambulance and emergency dept treatment are not beilled for regardless of entitlement )
B. centralised procurement / bulk buying - while there isn't a monolithic standardised list of items the buying power of NHS supplies and PASA is considerable ( PH point - PASA is why it is hard to get a Octavia Scout - as it's the preferred RRV for none HART /USAR uses - HART get LR D4s with sumpguards, snorkels and winches or V70XC)
c. the lack of micro accounting for things where it's not clinically required ( 3 packs of gauze or 4 to do a complex dressing doesn't matter)
Edited by mph1977 on Tuesday 30th September 21:28
mph1977 said:
( PH point - PASA is why it is hard to get a Octavia Scout - as it;s thepreferred RRV for none HART /USARuses - HART get LR D4s with sumpguards, snorkels and winches or V70XC)
I didn't get an explanation/translation of your previous post- could we have some form of jargon decoder for this one?Rovinghawk said:
mph1977 said:
( PH point - PASA is why it is hard to get a Octavia Scout - as it;s thepreferred RRV for none HART /USARuses - HART get LR D4s with sumpguards, snorkels and winches or V70XC)
I didn't get an explanation/translation of your previous post- could we have some form of jargon decoder for this one?
ks, doesn't he?REALIST123 said:
Rovinghawk said:
mph1977 said:
( PH point - PASA is why it is hard to get a Octavia Scout - as it;s thepreferred RRV for none HART /USARuses - HART get LR D4s with sumpguards, snorkels and winches or V70XC)
I didn't get an explanation/translation of your previous post- could we have some form of jargon decoder for this one?ks, doesn't he?trumptriple said:
Chicken said:
I am employed as an Emergency Care Assistant, working in an Ambulance Trust.
In this role I either assist ambulance clinicians (paramedics etc) with treating patients, or I treat patients myself as part of a dual ECA crew.
I am expected to work a 5 on/4 off rota consisting of 2 early 10hour shifts, 2 late 10hour shifts, and one 10hour night shift. Every twelve weeks I do a 3 week 'relief' period where I will be working anywhere in the county.
I am expected to drive £125k worth of vehicle, under emergency conditions, whilst maintains comms with control, hospital etc. I am also expected to enter potentially volatile situations with little or no warnings or information; and with no protective equipment.
Despite the fact that I am exposed to all sorts of nasty illnesses and have been covered in st, piss, vomit and blood plenty of times, as well as already having a dodgy back from lifting people up when they cant do it themselves, Ihave a sickness policy that mph1977 stated earlier, and its crap.
I have dealt with major accidents, dead babies, knife wielding schizophrenics, and aggressive drunks.
I have been bitten, punched, kicked and threatened.
For this I get £16,271 per year.
Wow, I didn't expect the pay to be so low, thanks for opening my eyes.In this role I either assist ambulance clinicians (paramedics etc) with treating patients, or I treat patients myself as part of a dual ECA crew.
I am expected to work a 5 on/4 off rota consisting of 2 early 10hour shifts, 2 late 10hour shifts, and one 10hour night shift. Every twelve weeks I do a 3 week 'relief' period where I will be working anywhere in the county.
I am expected to drive £125k worth of vehicle, under emergency conditions, whilst maintains comms with control, hospital etc. I am also expected to enter potentially volatile situations with little or no warnings or information; and with no protective equipment.
Despite the fact that I am exposed to all sorts of nasty illnesses and have been covered in s
t, piss, vomit and blood plenty of times, as well as already having a dodgy back from lifting people up when they cant do it themselves, Ihave a sickness policy that mph1977 stated earlier, and its crap.I have dealt with major accidents, dead babies, knife wielding schizophrenics, and aggressive drunks.
I have been bitten, punched, kicked and threatened.
For this I get £16,271 per year.
)I decided (long story) that I wanted to be a front-line Paramedic a while back. So 2 years ago, I began a University Degree to end up as such. I have a year to go before I can register as a Paramedic Clinician, and when I do next August, it is likely that I will spend my time out on the same shifts as Chicken, on the same knackered old vehicles, with someone like him as my crew-mate.
After having spent the last year or so out on the road, on frontline vehicles, doing all the things Chicken has already described - he is spot-on, and training and rank do not ensure that one gets less piss / s
t / vomit / violence directed your way!I have been privileged to have worked alongside many ECA's, like Chicken, and many of them are incredibly focused, professional people. They really do go the extra mile in patient care - and in return get, as he has illustrated, what many people might describe as a derisory remuneration at best.....and an insulting one at worst.
But what might be even more of an eye-opener with regards to salary, is that once I complete my 3-years of training as an advanced front-line clinician, I will be registered professionally, with the constant threat of my registration being lost if I make a single error.
So therefore as the lead clinician, when attending to any patients in an Ambulance, I am responsible for making all the final, and potentially life-threatening decisions, about patient care - i.e. what interventions to make, which one of the 35-odd drugs we carry to administer, how best to transport them to Hospital - whether or not I stay at the site of the job and administer life-saving help, or whether or not I risk moving them and running them to Hospital....whatever I decide will often impinge upon whether the patient lives or dies. It is as simple as that.
I will be 43 years old when I graduate - with 25-odd years of life experience, including the last 10 years in senior management, earning a shed-load.
Ok, obviously, I understand that as a graduate, I don't expect anywhere near what I am used to earning. I have made this career change for a number of reasons, none of which involve the ability to earn a fortune, lol!
But anyway - I live in the South, with prices for everything, including property, through the roof.
So - what will my starting salary be, for such huge responsibility, after 3 years of training?
NHS band 5, Year 1....
£21,500.
Plus a few more quid for 'antisocial' hours...
I hope that maybe, some of you might now view frontline clinical staff, with a wee bit more of a softer focus???!!!
Over the last 5 something years with pay freezes and increase in pension costs etc most civil servants have seen a reduction in take home pay of 20% when taking account of inflation etc! There has been no up keep of pay scales they have in civil servants! You are not paid for previous experiences but time served, I have only risen 1 lvl in 10 years of service with 10+ years outside! Alot of people are very annoyed with the set up and its getting worse! Not a nurse but similar system I am also in!
Baron Greenback said:
Over the last 5 something years with pay freezes and increase in pension costs etc most civil servants have seen a reduction in take home pay of 20% when taking account of inflation etc! There has been no up keep of pay scales they have in civil servants! You are not paid for previous experiences but time served, I have only risen 1 lvl in 10 years of service with 10+ years outside! Alot of people are very annoyed with the set up and its getting worse! Not a nurse but similar system I am also in!
Your pension is hugely subsidised.In the private sector you don't normally get increases in pay purely for time served...
Sheepshanks said:
Some? It really does make people look incredibly stupid when they use industry language and acronyms in public forums. I know it's done to try and impress but it has the opposite effect.
given the level of expertise being expounded by those who obviously know better than those with frontline experience, I didn't realise we'd have ot use the EASYREAD versions of discussion...Digga said:
Hooli said:
I work in the NHS & think I get paid a reasonable rate for the job I do. However I could point out loads of utterly pointless departments or higher paid people who do nothing of any use all around the place. Rubbish like 'service improvement' who get paid as much as managers to ask the managers how they'd improve the service, go away then come back & tell them to do what they want - so exactly what'd happen without 'service improvement' but with added delays & cost.
Anecdotally, having spend a bit of time visiting bits of the NHS a few years back, this appears to be the case. There seem to be a lot of people doing a very good job, surrounded by a lot more people who do not seem productive or effectively employed.Hooli said:
Half the admin staff are too lazy & stupid to find their own desk let alone do their job properly too.
Which might explain why I witnessed so many people aimlessly wandering about one hospital in particular.The waste is incredible, it's something you can't believe when you start & after a few years it's just a standing joke amongst those who still give a toss. It gets worse when you get outside companies in. We had a huge EPR Electronic Patient Records) project a couple of years ago & Dell were got in to manage it. A couple of examples from the idiot they had in charge of peripheral deployment -
Idiot - Are those wireless print servers any good?
Us - No, they don't work with DHCP let alone anything else
Idiot - Good, I've ordered 400 because they are cheap
Idiot - How many do we need?
Us - Thee, get five to make sure.
Idiot - I'll order 100 just in case.
sidicks said:
Your pension is hugely subsidised.
In the private sector you don't normally get increases in pay purely for time served...
you don't in the NHS either , the existence of an incremental pay scale and the fact most people progress through increments on an annual basis, by demonstrating that they are working towards the next gateway set of competencnes or for the couple of increments above the upper gateway by demonstraing at least maintainance if not not development of competencies ... until they reach the top increment of the band their role is evaluated into, doesn't mean it's purely on time served. In the private sector you don't normally get increases in pay purely for time served...
https://www.unison.org.uk/upload/sharepoint/Polici...
http://www.rcn.org.uk/support/pay_and_conditions/a...
otolith said:
I would have more respect for the public sector unions if they didn't pretend that they were acting in the interests of the public - their job is to represent the interests of their members against the interests of the tax paying and service using public.
This is waffle, of course the Unions represent their members who else?If their members are unhappy it will effect the public.I rather be looked after by a happy nurse than somebody who is overworked due to shortage of staff and is miserable.
Foppo said:
otolith said:
I would have more respect for the public sector unions if they didn't pretend that they were acting in the interests of the public - their job is to represent the interests of their members against the interests of the tax paying and service using public.
This is waffle, of course the Unions represent their members who else?If their members are unhappy it will effect the public.I rather be looked after by a happy nurse than somebody who is overworked due to shortage of staff and is miserable.
ks they come out with to try to gain public support. The government acts on our behalf, the unions act for their members.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff