Worst Track Day, Organisers & Most Expensive.....
Discussion
QBee said:
For the record, I didn't complain as I wasn't at Spa. I drew their attention to this thread by email. That's all.
I can't see the difference at all. You took action with the intent that RMA be censured even though you were not there and now fellow PHers who do enjoy the event under existing insurance arrangements are no longer able to do so. Some of us had either already book the event or days off for upcoming events. Furthermore we receive crappy comments about having substandard insurance....and will have to pay even more to attend.Well done.
(Of course, not all down to just you....but it is incredible that you took action and were not even there!)
Edited by LaSource on Thursday 9th October 01:24
LaSource said:
QBee said:
For the record, I didn't complain as I wasn't at Spa. I drew their attention to this thread by email. That's all.
I can't see the difference at all. You took action with the intent that RMA be censured even though you were not there and now fellow PHers who do enjoy the event under existing insurance arrangements are no longer able to do so. Some of us had either already book the event or days off for upcoming events. Furthermore we receive crappy comments about having substandard insurance....and will have to pay even more to attend.Well done.
(Of course, not all down to just you....but it is incredible that you took action and were not even there!)
Edited by LaSource on Thursday 9th October 01:24
"Well To the important bit.... I had a pretty seriouse accident on track in my GTR where the RMA oganiser attended, gave me a filly dirty look, walked straight past me and my passenger and asked the track marshal if the wall was ok?? While I'm in agony and my car is in the middle of the track in a bad way, he showed no concern whatsoever for me or my passenger looked at me in disgust and walked off when I said I needed help. I was taken off to hospital in an ambulance where I was diagnosed with a broken bone in my back.
I can only thank bookatrack and my friend who helped me out, to take my car back for me and when I discharged my self from hospital took me to calls wher I was collected by my sister and girlfriend, I've been recovering since.
I'm discussed to hear it been slagged off over dinner from a result of very unlucky accident that could have happened to anybody that takes part in a track day! Rest assured RMA will not care for you, your passenger or your vehicle your fault or not, remember at RMA your just a paying inconvenient customer!
There is more from another party though I'm not at liberty to comment on that my self"
I would expect any TDO to show a duty of care to me if I was unfortunate enough to crash on a track day, especially overseas. The briefings report was bad enough, but we all know that briefings vary and you wouldn't expect beginners to be doing their first TD at Spa (I say that, but a keen F1-following client of mine was asking me only a couple of weeks ago about taking his DB9 to Spa. He has never done a track day). But the report from the driver himself as to how he was treated at the crash scene made me feel there was a case to answer if the ATDO felt it appropriate to act based on comments on a public forum. It transpired that they had ALREADY HAD SEVERAL FORMAL COMPLAINTS.
Well done QBee, someone took responsibility to ensure ADTO were aware of the situation. That is a good thing for the future of responsible track days organisers and participants. You had your own reasons, just ignore those that don't share your idea of responsibility. Before more cars get damaged and people get injured. Safety briefings should be just that. Not a comedy show. A responsibility to their clients and their safety.
OK, my apologies. I was feeling grumpy last night.
Still feel like a victim as less track day organisers, less insurance providers, will ultimately screw up the sport for the majority (esp the less affluent) as the market is then not large enough to bother with for the providers.
Already with the withdrawal of european track cover at a few places, withdrawal of RMA track cover now, I see the manning policy no longer being as attractive as it was. Most others are also going to a 'per event' basis. This time next year we could all be looking at a scenario where on top of the TDO fees you have to pay £150-£500 per event for insurance cover depending on car....of course this also reduces the more precious cars from coming on track.
Not aiming to brag, but I have four Porsches, all of which would have been insured at Mannings...as it is only 1 is now...and I am unlikely to renew when the time comes. The alternative providers who also cover spa/ring are mainly per event.
I guess the other problem is too many of you crashing at events and hurting the insurers...get some instruction
(just kidding about the last point!)
Still feel like a victim as less track day organisers, less insurance providers, will ultimately screw up the sport for the majority (esp the less affluent) as the market is then not large enough to bother with for the providers.
Already with the withdrawal of european track cover at a few places, withdrawal of RMA track cover now, I see the manning policy no longer being as attractive as it was. Most others are also going to a 'per event' basis. This time next year we could all be looking at a scenario where on top of the TDO fees you have to pay £150-£500 per event for insurance cover depending on car....of course this also reduces the more precious cars from coming on track.
Not aiming to brag, but I have four Porsches, all of which would have been insured at Mannings...as it is only 1 is now...and I am unlikely to renew when the time comes. The alternative providers who also cover spa/ring are mainly per event.
I guess the other problem is too many of you crashing at events and hurting the insurers...get some instruction
(just kidding about the last point!)
My apologies too, and thanks for yours, La Source. It was a difficult call at the time, and I do see are you were coming from.
I only do track days because I can insure my TVR for 90% of its value if I crash it.
My insurance is with ClassicLine, who do mainly limited mileage classic policies. All with mainstream insurers.
Mine is unlimited, because I love driving the car too much!
It also includes all mods (extra 80 bhp, roll cage, modified engine, after market dampers etc etc) at no extra cost, and all UK TDs organised by car clubs or ATDO members.
The way it works sounds odd, but it actually works very well. You have unlimited numbers of UK TDs included in your annual premium, but you have to phone or email through what you have booked before you go on it. They then send you out a letter confirming that they have approved it....which avoids all doubt as to whether you are covered or not. If, like me, you have the memory of a goldfish, you can phone it through on the day from the track.....
I just called them (Laura - 01455 639000) and she confirmed the above, and that they do cover Spa at between £50 and £100 per event. They don't cover the Ring - they used to and it cost them a small fortune in claims.
I only do track days because I can insure my TVR for 90% of its value if I crash it.
My insurance is with ClassicLine, who do mainly limited mileage classic policies. All with mainstream insurers.
Mine is unlimited, because I love driving the car too much!
It also includes all mods (extra 80 bhp, roll cage, modified engine, after market dampers etc etc) at no extra cost, and all UK TDs organised by car clubs or ATDO members.
The way it works sounds odd, but it actually works very well. You have unlimited numbers of UK TDs included in your annual premium, but you have to phone or email through what you have booked before you go on it. They then send you out a letter confirming that they have approved it....which avoids all doubt as to whether you are covered or not. If, like me, you have the memory of a goldfish, you can phone it through on the day from the track.....
I just called them (Laura - 01455 639000) and she confirmed the above, and that they do cover Spa at between £50 and £100 per event. They don't cover the Ring - they used to and it cost them a small fortune in claims.
joust said:
What total and utter rubbish. That is not what the last few posts have said, exactly the opposite.
Is your middle name Troll?
Everyone I spoke to enjoyed themselves at the last 3 track days, from "virgins" at Oulton who found Graham's approach very reassuring to "old hands" who like the no nonsense approach.
I have been to far worse days where race cars are allowed to mix unfettered with road cars. Graham gets exactly the right balance so everyone can have fun.
However, as I said in my original post, the OP and the others have valid points and anything we say probably will mean they won't ever book a RMA event again. However Graham says from the outset that his model accomodates that.
All I would say is that if you get past the culture shock you find some of the best, if not best, days for people,that have mutual respect as well as being fast.
A case in point is all the novice Catherham's (academy?) out early on Tuesday. First few laps they stuck to their lines meaning a few snakes were created behind them. It's no problem, the day is long, laps are a many, and by the afternoon they were all split out and had started to use their mirrors.
As anyone that comes out with me will find I generally do a little commentary of people that haven't seen you. It's easy to spot, and all you do is brake hard, let them find their apex, let them know you are there and 3 or 4 corners later they will get their groove and feel relaxed to see you.
My fuel bill was over €700 over the two days so I've got plenty of laps, and just one slow bit doesn't matter, especially if the guy in the slower car learns how to spot faster cars.
As they day, there is always next lap.....
If you don't like swearing then don't go on an RMA day. Give Goldtrack, BaT (who I also personally rate) or even MSV's own track day a shout. They are nice, friendly, happy people. You'll have a great day. You'll overtake less and it won't be stressful.
Vote with your pounds. It's called a free market.
J
I'm a troll, ha ha, i actually have respect for other peoples safety, a tdo has a responsibility for their customers safety and this company obviously doesn't care less as demonstrated by the guy in the GTR that was ignored after an accident and helped out massively by bookatrack! Thats why they are no longer a member of the atdo! You may want to look up the meaning of troll in a dictionary if you know how to!! I expect some semblance of courtesy when i book a track day but if you like being talked to like a tard then good for you! And i do vote with my money! Thanks. Is your middle name Troll?
Everyone I spoke to enjoyed themselves at the last 3 track days, from "virgins" at Oulton who found Graham's approach very reassuring to "old hands" who like the no nonsense approach.
I have been to far worse days where race cars are allowed to mix unfettered with road cars. Graham gets exactly the right balance so everyone can have fun.
However, as I said in my original post, the OP and the others have valid points and anything we say probably will mean they won't ever book a RMA event again. However Graham says from the outset that his model accomodates that.
All I would say is that if you get past the culture shock you find some of the best, if not best, days for people,that have mutual respect as well as being fast.
A case in point is all the novice Catherham's (academy?) out early on Tuesday. First few laps they stuck to their lines meaning a few snakes were created behind them. It's no problem, the day is long, laps are a many, and by the afternoon they were all split out and had started to use their mirrors.
As anyone that comes out with me will find I generally do a little commentary of people that haven't seen you. It's easy to spot, and all you do is brake hard, let them find their apex, let them know you are there and 3 or 4 corners later they will get their groove and feel relaxed to see you.
My fuel bill was over €700 over the two days so I've got plenty of laps, and just one slow bit doesn't matter, especially if the guy in the slower car learns how to spot faster cars.
As they day, there is always next lap.....
If you don't like swearing then don't go on an RMA day. Give Goldtrack, BaT (who I also personally rate) or even MSV's own track day a shout. They are nice, friendly, happy people. You'll have a great day. You'll overtake less and it won't be stressful.
Vote with your pounds. It's called a free market.
J
I did my first track day with RMA recently.
It was clearly more of a race car test day than a regular track day with the paddock full of racing team trucks!
The briefing was as already described, blue, brief and a bit pointless!
Obviously the standard of driving was fairly high as most people were either Racing Drivers or very experienced. However, with the racing teams pushing the limits for fast lap times (no timing allowed - ahem) there were several red flags through the day where they pushed a little too hard!
I'll be honest, I did quite like the overtaking both sides rule as it avoided large trains of cars waiting to pass slower cars. The down side to this was that you have to spend 50% of the time watching the mirrors for fast approaching stripped out and slick tyre equipped race cars driven by F1 wanna-be's, who had no issue with throwing one up the inside (or outside) as you approached a corner!
I still had a fantastic day, the weather was great, and the driving was fun, but not for the faint-hearted, but I personally prefer a more road car themed day with less ego flying around!
It was clearly more of a race car test day than a regular track day with the paddock full of racing team trucks!
The briefing was as already described, blue, brief and a bit pointless!
Obviously the standard of driving was fairly high as most people were either Racing Drivers or very experienced. However, with the racing teams pushing the limits for fast lap times (no timing allowed - ahem) there were several red flags through the day where they pushed a little too hard!
I'll be honest, I did quite like the overtaking both sides rule as it avoided large trains of cars waiting to pass slower cars. The down side to this was that you have to spend 50% of the time watching the mirrors for fast approaching stripped out and slick tyre equipped race cars driven by F1 wanna-be's, who had no issue with throwing one up the inside (or outside) as you approached a corner!
I still had a fantastic day, the weather was great, and the driving was fun, but not for the faint-hearted, but I personally prefer a more road car themed day with less ego flying around!
corporalsparrow said:
According to Graham's last email every one of their track days has been sold out this year. He must be doing something right. So I don't suppose he'll lose much sleep over all this.
I'm sure the chap who crashed and received shoddy treatment feels much better knowing that.A late entry to this blog which I stumbled on when I found that a certain track day organiser is no longer part of ATDO - and hence no longer insurable with my usual insurers
I was at the Spa days in September along with half a dozen mates, all of us with 10 plus years of track day and competition experience, including many trips to Spa and the Ring. We all agreed that it was the worst driving we'd seen and felt like a bad public day at the Ring. The evidence is pretty clear - we've never seen so many interruptions, red flags and major accidents. And ultimately that has to reflect on how the event was supervised so I'm not surprised at the ATDO decision. I've done a lot people management in business - the sergeant major/Alan Sugar model doesn't work in serious organisations. We were unconvinced that the repeat offenders got dealt with - they were still out there at the end...
We were near to one of the pro teams - 911 cup car, trucks and all the rest. Got to know them well and their views were not dissimilar to ours. In fact we didn't find the serious, pro drivers to be a problem. We were all quick enough and experienced enough to cope but there was just plain bad driving going on out there which was not fun. And meant that we all lost a lot of track time.
I wonder what the Maclaren team or the guys with the beautiful Ferraris, Alfas and Lola classic race cars thought. They would not be too keen on putting all that very expensive machinery at unnecessary risk. Or seeing track time go to waste
Maybe it will sort itself out. Those who want that kind of event will keep going - though I doubt that its 95%. Others will head for more professionally run events where the driving is not necessarily any slower, but where poor (and dangerous) driving standards get picked up and dealt with quickly.
Sad really. We all want plenty of well run days at top circuits like Spa and the Ring. So having days in the calendar that that are dubious and uninsurable means a few less one can go to...
I was at the Spa days in September along with half a dozen mates, all of us with 10 plus years of track day and competition experience, including many trips to Spa and the Ring. We all agreed that it was the worst driving we'd seen and felt like a bad public day at the Ring. The evidence is pretty clear - we've never seen so many interruptions, red flags and major accidents. And ultimately that has to reflect on how the event was supervised so I'm not surprised at the ATDO decision. I've done a lot people management in business - the sergeant major/Alan Sugar model doesn't work in serious organisations. We were unconvinced that the repeat offenders got dealt with - they were still out there at the end...
We were near to one of the pro teams - 911 cup car, trucks and all the rest. Got to know them well and their views were not dissimilar to ours. In fact we didn't find the serious, pro drivers to be a problem. We were all quick enough and experienced enough to cope but there was just plain bad driving going on out there which was not fun. And meant that we all lost a lot of track time.
I wonder what the Maclaren team or the guys with the beautiful Ferraris, Alfas and Lola classic race cars thought. They would not be too keen on putting all that very expensive machinery at unnecessary risk. Or seeing track time go to waste
Maybe it will sort itself out. Those who want that kind of event will keep going - though I doubt that its 95%. Others will head for more professionally run events where the driving is not necessarily any slower, but where poor (and dangerous) driving standards get picked up and dealt with quickly.
Sad really. We all want plenty of well run days at top circuits like Spa and the Ring. So having days in the calendar that that are dubious and uninsurable means a few less one can go to...
FTW said:
I was at Spa, I thought it was all good banter. 8/10 would do again.
Yep I was there also and while it was my first RMA trackday I actually took the briefing as one of the funniest things I have seen at a trackday. I did feel sorry for the track newbies though that hadn't booked instruction, a little humiliating I am sure to some of them. It was right up there with the best two days on track I've had and this year I've already booked 4 or 5 days (inc 2 x 2 day at Spa) with RMA and would have no problem advising others to do so. I think the majority of his rants (however you take them) are aimed at keeping the track open for all to have more time doing what you go there for. BAT and Goldtrack are the other two top class organisers IMO. Good people, well organised and don't take any fools at their days (or swiftly kick them off when they slip through).Just had the worst track day I’ve ever been on by the athletic spear organisation.
Damp or raining most of the day was fine, I like the challenge. However I should have known when all the garages were booked up two weeks before...
Test day would have been better description than track day. Over ten red flags spent much time off track while blokes who apparently hold race licenses demonstrate how poorly they can drive in the race machinery they’ve bought.
I don’t care if guys spin. But. I have never witnessed such shocking driving standards. I personally reported seven or eight drivers. I was being overtaken into the apex on several occasions - having to open the steering to avoid collision. Overtaking on wrong side, cars out of control into braking zone such that my mirrors were full of cars that didn’t seem to stop.
I’ve done an MSV day where cars were testing but those guy had utter respect for those actually track daying.
Will be asking for my money back.
Damp or raining most of the day was fine, I like the challenge. However I should have known when all the garages were booked up two weeks before...
Test day would have been better description than track day. Over ten red flags spent much time off track while blokes who apparently hold race licenses demonstrate how poorly they can drive in the race machinery they’ve bought.
I don’t care if guys spin. But. I have never witnessed such shocking driving standards. I personally reported seven or eight drivers. I was being overtaken into the apex on several occasions - having to open the steering to avoid collision. Overtaking on wrong side, cars out of control into braking zone such that my mirrors were full of cars that didn’t seem to stop.
I’ve done an MSV day where cars were testing but those guy had utter respect for those actually track daying.
Will be asking for my money back.
Although I agree it was a pretty crappy day, I personally found the ‘trackday’ drivers to have significantly poorer track etiquette - although there was some questionable driving pretty much everywhere. A lot of times I found the person in front of me not using the mirrors, or my personal favourite driving the whole length of one of the longest straights in the UK on the left hand side without a regard for the train of cars behind. In fact even on the sighting map it was poor - a Civic in front of me slowed so much that I had to go round Coram in first... and I was in a Fiesta.
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