Carbon Ceramic brake life

Carbon Ceramic brake life

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Discussion

Impasse

15,099 posts

240 months

Saturday 27th September 2014
quotequote all
W0here does the cost/performance ratio cross over? From the perspective of a shed owner whose car uses £300 worth of discs every 20-30k, I can't help but raise an eyebrow to the madness of £7000 per 40-50 thousand miles on a road car - especially if something as innocuous as water proves fatal for their longevity.

Will there be a daft scenario where a steely owner will be braking harder than a CC owner because he/she's not fussed about wearing out the cheap brakes? hehe

Cockernee

3,059 posts

159 months

Saturday 27th September 2014
quotequote all
tonyhall38 said:
fk all wrong with mine....51 k miles.....2 sets of pads though.....
You drive like a tart though yes. hehe

cayman-black

12,625 posts

215 months

Saturday 27th September 2014
quotequote all
I would love to know how many owner have given there wheels and CCB a right good wash, (soaking)?
I bet every one has.
Most stupid thing i have ever heard.
Does this no soaking apply to all CCB , on other marques as well?
If it does i bet they do not know this either.

V8 Animal

5,914 posts

209 months

Saturday 27th September 2014
quotequote all
cayman-black said:
I would love to know how many owner have given there wheels and CCB a right good wash, (soaking)?
I bet every one has.
Most stupid thing i have ever heard.
Does this no soaking apply to all CCB , on other marques as well?
If it does i bet they do not know this either.
I'm sorry I have to agree with you on this.
I'm no mechanic but it does sound like bks.
Any owners with ceramic brakes (and there's more models available now) are not to use them in the rain.



NBTBRV8

2,061 posts

207 months

Sunday 28th September 2014
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Water does not affect Porsche's CCBs. The only thing that kills them is hard track work or people chipping the edges when removing rims.

tonyhall38

4,194 posts

215 months

Monday 29th September 2014
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have posts been removed again?

whoami

13,151 posts

239 months

Monday 29th September 2014
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Yes.

tonyhall38

4,194 posts

215 months

Monday 29th September 2014
quotequote all
any idea why?

BamfordMike

1,192 posts

156 months

Monday 29th September 2014
quotequote all
V8 Animal said:
I'm sorry I have to agree with you on this.
I'm no mechanic but it does sound like bks.
Any owners with ceramic brakes (and there's more models available now) are not to use them in the rain.
The advice doesn't say don't drive in the rain, that has never been said anywhere, certainly not by me, so i'm not quite sure what the bks actually is that you refer to? But if any of what i say here is, please feedback, you see, the whole purpose of this advice (intended by me anyway) is to inform prospective buyers so that getting bit on the arse post purchase of a car that needs discs doesn't happen - sometimes like V12 engines rattling, leaking oil, V8 clutches and other tales of serious woe does, because as the cars start to age more, this is a reality we see ever more of - Guys who save their whole life to buy their dream car ends up in the dream biting them on the arse with a hidden surprise, which is seriously not good.


To cover old ground,
There is no real path for rain water on to disc face save for wading.
Splash of clear water from washing, then driving, more than likely OK but i would avoid
Drenched disc, perhaps with chemical wheel clean, and then driving, probably best avoided at all costs
Covering the disc with any form of chemical cleaner, surely best avoided.

Wear rates.
More than one car has contributed to the build up of data to draw following conclusion
1- in the hands of a pro around race track a set of pads will last approx. 500 miles
2- in the hands of frequent trackday user and fast road driving, a set of pads will last 4500 - 5500 miles
3- in the hands of normal road use, never seeing track day a set of pads will last approx 15k miles
Not in all cases but mostly, regardless of how its achieved (from the list above), a disc will last 3 pad sets.
Discounting the pro track driver as that is not representative of what to look out for in road cars, if the car is year after year tracked and driven hard on the road, then expect approx. 15k miles from a set of discs, for a car driven lightly on the road expect approx 45k miles from the discs before needing replacement. It could be the case that driven extremely lightly on the road a pad set might last 20k miles and discs 60k.

Most owners here seem to be @ 3++ on my scale, and contrary to somebody 'thinking' they drove hard, if wear rates were closer to no. 3 than no. 2, wear rates are actually normal for this driver. If that means the consumable parts life for these particular cars will be longer, then fantastic, yours is the car a future buyer wants to own.


I remember a few years back on this forum unhappy discussions after new owners were bitten shortly after purchase needing to spend out on replacement clutch. The discussion then developed and questioned why couldn't clutch life / status form part of the 140 point check. Well, for manual it cant really apart from pedal feel and how the take up of drive feels. But for ASM it certainly is possible to ballpark likely clutch life expectancy. Same here then for ceramic discs. Because if new owner 5k miles into purchase gets rapid pad wear, turns out the discs were worn and surface layer has gone, the owner is faced with big spend to recover. The thread on the BR forum area and the message here is for the prospective purchaser to go into the purchase with eyes open re likely status of a consumable, and for CCM's there is a measurable to ask for to make an informed choice at point of purchase.

The spec requires discs to be removed, kiln dried to remove moisture then weighed, the minimum weight is written on each individual disc mounting bell. In practice nowhere i have come across including BR has a kiln, but the trade practice is to leave the discs off the car in dry environment for 12 hours and then weigh. If moisture ads weight, and the drying of the disc removes weight, if the discs were not kiln dried, simply left 12 hours and were weighed at nearing minimum density limit, then this is already point for alarm bell to ring and the full spec kiln dry will only remove more weight. It is my experience though, that when disc is approaching minimum density the surface finish will degrade from the mirror to look at and feel finish to a rough to touch and going off-black finish.

So, for the prospective buyer, A car at 40k plus, get a density weight check at pre purchase, or factor in disc renewal in asking price or walk away - because 'somebodies' word can be wrong regarding number of pad sets the car has used, so can the book be 'missing' stamps when pads were changed, and so can the car have 5k miles on clock and discs be wrecked from chemical wheel cleaning.

look for this;






avoid this




cayman-black

12,625 posts

215 months

Monday 29th September 2014
quotequote all
Thank you for all the info BM. I would certainly check discs and pads much more carefully now.

outofstepuk

1,242 posts

151 months

Monday 29th September 2014
quotequote all
tonyhall38 said:
any idea why?
perhaps Byteme thought calling Mike's post "absolute garbage, on so many levels!" and putting "disc density, my arse!" was unnecessary when he cooled off.

Thanks for the info Mike.





V8 Animal

5,914 posts

209 months

Monday 29th September 2014
quotequote all
Can't say I took much notice when I bought mine but as the car had only done 2 k I guess there ok.
I still use a Jetwash to clean my wheels and will continue to do so but I don't tend to drive the car afterwards, try not to drive in the rain if I can.
That second picture does look bad I wonder if my June2016 warranty would cover such a problem?
Apologies Mike for being offensive.

jonby

5,357 posts

156 months

Monday 29th September 2014
quotequote all
V8 Animal said:
Can't say I took much notice when I bought mine but as the car had only done 2 k I guess there ok.
I still use a Jetwash to clean my wheels and will continue to do so but I don't tend to drive the car afterwards, try not to drive in the rain if I can.
That second picture does look bad I wonder if my June2016 warranty would cover such a problem?
Apologies Mike for being offensive.
Can;t imagine warranty would be likely to cover it. Regardless of any differences of opinion on here, one thing I consistently hear regardless of brand is not to use cheap cleaning products on ceramic brakes as they often contain acid which can destroy CBs

Byteme

450 posts

141 months

Tuesday 30th September 2014
quotequote all
outofstepuk said:
tonyhall38 said:
any idea why?
perhaps Byteme thought calling Mike's post "absolute garbage, on so many levels!" and putting "disc density, my arse!" was unnecessary when he cooled off.

Thanks for the info Mike.
I deleted the post simply because it's not worth arguing with sheep.

I suggested this company didn't have the equipment to conduct the OEM test and your guy, Mike, confirmed they don't: Q.E.D.


emicen

8,558 posts

217 months

Tuesday 30th September 2014
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Are the DBS/V12V not fitted with brake cooling ducting?

BamfordMike

1,192 posts

156 months

Tuesday 30th September 2014
quotequote all
Byteme said:
I deleted the post simply because it's not worth arguing with sheep.

I suggested this company didn't have the equipment to conduct the OEM test and your guy, Mike, confirmed they don't: Q.E.D.
yeah, you hit the nail on the head buddie, the Aston forum is full of sheep. Really!!!

good job you don't want to argue with sheep, a scan of some if your other interactions with humans on this forum shows you are no endearing Sheppard.

still remains to be asked, your help to this debate is exactly what? Other than continually rubbing folk up wrong way?

outofstepuk

1,242 posts

151 months

Tuesday 30th September 2014
quotequote all
Byteme said:
I deleted the post simply because it's not worth arguing with sheep.
That's what I see as the problem. It's a technical discussion, why call it an argument? I personally do trust Mike's knowledge, Baa baa etc.

However I also would happily read the views of other people with a more technical mindset than mine (which is many of you). I'd say this is the best way to get all the info we can share on this open discussion forum.

Too much of people wanting to discredit others, rather than gain credit themselves.


outofstepuk

1,242 posts

151 months

Tuesday 30th September 2014
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hmmm, ok. I'll leave both sides to argue then wink

Omaruk

611 posts

158 months

Tuesday 30th September 2014
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What happened to MMC discs and associated technology used to be in the original Elise S1 and lasted an eternity with no brake dust?

V8V12VTECwoollie

4,363 posts

144 months

Tuesday 30th September 2014
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I used one of these to dry off the CCMs, and to get water out of the shut lines, around the lights and anywhere else that a microfiber towel could not reach:

http://www.polishedbliss.co.uk/acatalog/metro-vac-...

Sparkly was a lucky, lucky car to have such a wonderfully caring owner biggrin