legal position refusing to complete a job

legal position refusing to complete a job

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shoehorn

Original Poster:

686 posts

142 months

Friday 26th September 2014
quotequote all
On the way home this evening I popped in to see a friend,an old guy who had a sorry looking 2003 discovery in his workshop from which the in tank fuel pump had been removed because it had failed.
The pump looks like its had a blow torch on the section between the swirl pot and the tank fitting,if it were a petrol car we would not be discussing it.

he is refusing to fit the new one supplied by the owner without determining why the old one burst into flames.
She runs the stables and uses it for towing and needs it this weekend.
Of course she just wants the new pump fitted,he refused to do it and now she has asked a relative who I guess is a lawyer to phone him up and give him both barrels about suing for loss of earnings,billing him for a hire vehicle,breaching a contract etc.
She wont take it until it`s put back together as well.
I told him to inform her that within a reasonable time if she did not collect it then he was going to leave it outside for her to collect and then to ignore her.
He is a bumpkin and is quite concerned that A:she will sue him and B:I have no legal trainingbiggrin
I know that he will be at home now fretting badly.

Jasandjules

69,825 posts

228 months

Friday 26th September 2014
quotequote all
Why is he refusing to fit a new part to put the vehicle into working condition?


shoehorn

Original Poster:

686 posts

142 months

Friday 26th September 2014
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
Why is he refusing to fit a new part to put the vehicle into working condition?
Because the car had a burning fuel pump inside the tank with the fuel,he wont fit the new one without determining that it will be safe to do so without it catching fire again.
I had a quick look at it and given the extent of damage,guessed that the electrical supply is either bodged or by passed and is probably un-fused.
I would be having a proper investigation or better still be scrapping it if it were my car.
If he fits the pump and it re-occurs,they may not be so lucky again and he would surely then be liable in some way.

paintman

7,669 posts

189 months

Friday 26th September 2014
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Many reasons why a fuel pump can fail, its an electric motor after all so burning out is a possible. Having had failures on a petrol EFi RRC (high pressure pump)it doesn't necessarily result in it bursting into flames - bear in mind its immersed in the fuel & the fuel also cools the pump.
If there is no other damage apparent then I can't see a reason for not fitting a new pump.

ETA. Has he tried the new pump to see what happens?

Edited by paintman on Friday 26th September 22:32

shoehorn

Original Poster:

686 posts

142 months

Friday 26th September 2014
quotequote all
paintman said:
Many reasons why a fuel pump can fail, its an electric motor after all so burning out is a possible. Having had failures on a petrol EFi RRC (high pressure pump)it doesn't necessarily result in it bursting into flames - bear in mind its immersed in the fuel & the fuel also cools the pump.
If there is no other damage apparent then I can't see a reason for not fitting a new pump.
This pump has not just got hot it is has clearly caught alight,I shall return to his workshop in the omrning for a picture to post,
I my self would not fit it without at least looking at the supply to it to ensure that it is turning off when it should be and that it is fused at the very least,then ideally use it then remove it to see if it is getting hot,test it`s current draw etc.
she refuses and just wants it replaced,he would probably fit the pump and connect the fuel lines but I would guess he would refuse to re connect the supply and try to start it.
He has asked for no money just that she either has the job done properly or to take it away.
sorry for any grammar/spelling errors,been drinkfishingdrink all day.

Edited by shoehorn on Friday 26th September 22:51

skeggysteve

5,724 posts

216 months

Friday 26th September 2014
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shoehorn said:
...he is refusing to fit the new one supplied by the owner without determining why the old one burst into flames...
Your friend is doing the right thing. The owner of the car needs to understand this asap.

Edit to add:

Sorry, I missed the bit about you asking for legal advice. I'm not a legal person but as it is clear that your friend is trying to stop his customer being killed I think your friend is on safe legal ground.

Edited by skeggysteve on Friday 26th September 22:56

paintman

7,669 posts

189 months

Friday 26th September 2014
quotequote all
Seems its not unusual.
http://forum.lro.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2466...
Also a few threads that if the fuel pump is burnt out then its relay is also likely to be.

Jasandjules

69,825 posts

228 months

Friday 26th September 2014
quotequote all
shoehorn said:
Because the car had a burning fuel pump inside the tank with the fuel,he wont fit the new one without determining that it will be safe to do so without it catching fire again.
.
Has he made that clear to the lady?

Steve H

5,224 posts

194 months

Saturday 27th September 2014
quotequote all
skeggysteve said:
shoehorn said:
...he is refusing to fit the new one supplied by the owner without determining why the old one burst into flames...
Your friend is doing the right thing. The owner of the car needs to understand this asap.

Edit to add:

Sorry, I missed the bit about you asking for legal advice. I'm not a legal person but as it is clear that your friend is trying to stop his customer being killed I think your friend is on safe legal ground.

Edited by skeggysteve on Friday 26th September 22:56
I'm not a legal bod but I am an auto electrician.

First point is that the customer is very unlikely to die over this rolleyes. You can put a lit match out in a pool of diesel and (while I wouldn't recommend trying it wink ) an overheating pump in a petrol tank would be unlikely to explode or even fully ignite as it would require a massive supply of air - not available in a sealed container.


To the fault on this vehicle. It would take under five minutes to confirm that the circuit is correctly fused and once that is done you are about as sure as you can be at this stage that the pump suffered an internal failure (pretty common on a diesel Disco).

Next thing to do would be to fit the new pump, there's no other way of going forward. By all means you can then check that the vehicle isn't overcharging when running and if you want to be really over the top you could check the current that the new pump is drawing, it would usually be very roughly 1/2 the fuse rating.

None of this work should be beyond the range of a capable workshop but if it is then they should have someone that they call in to do these kind of checks or they should not take on any work that involves any kind of electrical components.

TBH it sounds like he is making a big fuss over something that could be easily sorted and if I was the owner I'd be pretty annoyed that he was just stood there looking at it when it could be fixed and back on the road.

Jasandjules

69,825 posts

228 months

Saturday 27th September 2014
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Based on Steve H - he needs to get that fixed then and get her car back. I suspect that any experts will confirm what Steve has said is correct, therefore it is most unreasonable for him to fail to put the vehicle in roadworthy condition and his failure to do so could lead to costs for which he might be liable.

shoehorn

Original Poster:

686 posts

142 months

Saturday 27th September 2014
quotequote all
Steve H said:
I'm not a legal bod but I am an auto electrician.

First point is that the customer is very unlikely to die over this rolleyes. You can put a lit match out in a pool of diesel and (while I wouldn't recommend trying it wink ) an overheating pump in a petrol tank would be unlikely to explode or even fully ignite as it would require a massive supply of air - not available in a sealed container.


To the fault on this vehicle. It would take under five minutes to confirm that the circuit is correctly fused and once that is done you are about as sure as you can be at this stage that the pump suffered an internal failure (pretty common on a diesel Disco).

Next thing to do would be to fit the new pump, there's no other way of going forward. By all means you can then check that the vehicle isn't overcharging when running and if you want to be really over the top you could check the current that the new pump is drawing, it would usually be very roughly 1/2 the fuse rating.

None of this work should be beyond the range of a capable workshop but if it is then they should have someone that they call in to do these kind of checks or they should not take on any work that involves any kind of electrical components.

TBH it sounds like he is making a big fuss over something that could be easily sorted and if I was the owner I'd be pretty annoyed that he was just stood there looking at it when it could be fixed and back on the road.
all that stuff is well and good and between us we have nigh on ninety years of experience in the motor trade so We are fully aware of the dangers and are more than capable of determining what is and what isn`t safe and no matter how you view it a fire in a tank of sloshing fuel of any description can never be a good thing.
As it happens the owners son,who is obviously sensible intervened today,put it all to bed and gave some background,the `lawyer`who phoned up was a student lacky for a solicitor.
The pump was changed a few months ago by some one else,after it melted/got hot,the car still did not start so a mobile auto sparks came out and charged 400 quid for what now appears to be a by pass of the fault.
The car then suffered a drain which was not sorted,the car was started using a jump pack for weeks and only just before this pump had burnt did he `fix` the drain.
The son assured Ken(the old mechanic) that there would be no legal action and in all probability there would be no grounds for such anyway.
He asked that ken deals with him from now on and to go ahead and do what is needed to safely finish the job if practical.
It did not take him long to find that the majority of the wiring to the pump at the pump end is also fried and there is not even a fuse in the fuse box for the pump,in fact there is no proper pump supply at all at supply.
the pump has power even through the melted loom but it it`s not coming from where it should be,my assumption stands and it has obviously been powered by other means and may or may not be causing the fault but certainly it seems to leave it unprotected,which once again you cannot as a auto sparks say is safe.
The cables up to the pump show signs of being probed at some point and left to corrode through the probe punctures a couple have expanded and are corroded badly but have recently been simply taped over,(fresh pvc tape)
And we both suspect that the drain was his by-pass and the `fix` has something to do with the blatantly new 2.5mm single core mains cabling and 40 amp relay (again un-fused)tucked up under the battery and vanishing into the bulkhead because the supply goes when the relay is unplugged.

I am today sober and having another look at the pump and inside the top of the tank am slightly stunned, You can clearly see evidence of fire,not heat but flames and the pump it`s self looks to be unharmed.
There is sooting,charcoal,that cracked black effect that plastic shows when afire and completely melted pipes,wires and casing.
Add to that the guy fixed their non working suspension recently for £1500,it drops one rear corner completely 15 seconds after switching off and only starts rising after you move off,nice.


mcdk2

135 posts

231 months

Saturday 27th September 2014
quotequote all
I don't know the legal position but as a mechanical engineer (no in the auto industry) I would say that you are doing the right thing by being cautious. Looking at the photos it looks like it got extremely hot. Although diesel is difficult to light, I think that safety is key here. Show the customer the melted unit and they should understand your perspective.

shoehorn

Original Poster:

686 posts

142 months

Sunday 28th September 2014
quotequote all
mcdk2 said:
I don't know the legal position but as a mechanical engineer (no in the auto industry) I would say that you are doing the right thing by being cautious. Looking at the photos it looks like it got extremely hot. Although diesel is difficult to light, I think that safety is key here. Show the customer the melted unit and they should understand your perspective.
I agree,diesel is hard to light I agree but I always factor in sods law,experience tells you so and assumption in this case is a dangerous game,
Because if not for the fuel danger the possibility of an electrical fire alone is enough to warrant caution.
Unfortunately it seems that the peoples wants,rights and needs are more important than common sense.

Edited by shoehorn on Sunday 28th September 10:56

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 28th September 2014
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The professional regulators regard it as misconduct for a lawyer to use the fact that he or she is a lawyer as a pressure tactic when engaging in a private transaction (ie, not on behalf of a client, and your friend or relative is not your client). The student ought to bear that in mind if he or she intends to practise law.

shoehorn

Original Poster:

686 posts

142 months

Sunday 28th September 2014
quotequote all
While not relevant in this case as I don`t know the student,there is a jumped up little runt in our local who seems to think its fine to use his position in the legal trade as some sort of leverage.

I shall now be looking forward to his next Hitler outburst and then casually drop in with the information you have just furnished me with,ta very much.
Out of interest whats your take in a nutshell on my pals situation as it stood before common sense prevailed?

scdan4

1,299 posts

159 months

Sunday 28th September 2014
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Is there a wriggle round? Has he been paid to "fit a new fuel pump" or has he been asked to "diagnose and fix the car"

If it's the former - can he fit the pump and then "be unable to connect it due to the poor, fire damaged state" of the wiring loom? To resolve that would need an advisory for further work, with open ended costs, which she would be unlikely to agree to? (Maybe include an estimate for a new loom supply and fit..."

And a.n.other question - did he agree a time it would be ready, or is there nothing agreeing to that anywhere?

sunbeam alpine

6,936 posts

187 months

Sunday 28th September 2014
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Descovery pumps do fail like that (mine looked like that as well).

What happened in my case was that the car stopped suddenly. I realised that when I turned the key I couldn't hear the fuel pump whirring. On checking the fuse box, I found that the fuse for the pump was blown. Swapping the fuse with the one from (I think) the electric windows got me going again. I bought some new fuses, and kept running. The fuse lasted a few days before blowing again. I replaced it again and kept going.

(I should maybe add at this point that I wasn't trying to avoid looking for the problem, just that we were in the middle of harvest, and I didn't have time to work on the car).

At the point I had enough time to swap out the pump mine looked like the OP's photo. Maybe if I'd swapped the pump out immediately when the first fuse blew it would have looked less damaged. The fact that swapping the fuse got it going again led me to hope that it was just the fuse - after the second time I knew I had a problem.

I swapped the tank pump (this all happened about 5 years ago) and the car is still running fine and hasn't exploded and killed me.

shoehorn

Original Poster:

686 posts

142 months

Sunday 28th September 2014
quotequote all
scdan4 said:
Is there a wriggle round? Has he been paid to "fit a new fuel pump" or has he been asked to "diagnose and fix the car"

If it's the former - can he fit the pump and then "be unable to connect it due to the poor, fire damaged state" of the wiring loom? To resolve that would need an advisory for further work, with open ended costs, which she would be unlikely to agree to? (Maybe include an estimate for a new loom supply and fit..."

And a.n.other question - did he agree a time it would be ready, or is there nothing agreeing to that anywhere?
There was never a problem at his end,
The car arrived on one of her family/farm lorries as a non runner and already diagnosed as a failed pump,
Ken was just asked to replace the pump and fuse if needed,then to get the car running again.
He removed the pump immediately to help them out and upon seeing the damage advised the owner that he would require a bit more time with more than likely no mention of additional cost to ensure it was safe and that it had not caused other damage that wasn`t apparent.
She refused and insisted that he just put the pump in and get it started,he refused on the grounds that it could be dangerous and wanted no part of it in that case,reasonable and as it turns out justified in my opinion.
We are quick to deride those that do a shoddy job but when someone with old fashioned morals and a sense of pride,decency,doing the right thing or whatever you want to call it stands up he has no allies.
Besides his vast experience and undoubted wealth of knowledge he had never seen a burnt in tank lift pump and wanted to be cautious.

With hindsight its easy for those who have encountered it umpteen times in their daily life to say its safe as houses but as I said before people forget sods law,assuming the attitude that things cant happen for whatever reason,PFFT!
Experience tells me otherwise.

Monkeylegend

26,226 posts

230 months

Sunday 28th September 2014
quotequote all
shoehorn said:
It did not take him long to find that the majority of the wiring to the pump at the pump end is also fried and there is not even a fuse in the fuse box for the pump,in fact there is no proper pump supply at all at supply.
the pump has power even through the melted loom but it it`s not coming from where it should be,my assumption stands and it has obviously been powered by other means and may or may not be causing the fault but certainly it seems to leave it unprotected,which once again you cannot as a auto sparks say is safe.


Probably could have avoided the worry of legal action if he had taken the (short) time to establish this as the cause and report back to the owner, recommending a suitable fix.

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 28th September 2014
quotequote all
shoehorn said:
There was never a problem at his end,
The car arrived on one of her family/farm lorries as a non runner and already diagnosed as a failed pump,
Ken was just asked to replace the pump and fuse if needed,then to get the car running again.
He removed the pump immediately to help them out and upon seeing the damage advised the owner that he would require a bit more time with more than likely no mention of additional cost to ensure it was safe and that it had not caused other damage that wasn`t apparent.
She refused and insisted that he just put the pump in and get it started,he refused on the grounds that it could be dangerous and wanted no part of it in that case,reasonable and as it turns out justified in my opinion.
We are quick to deride those that do a shoddy job but when someone with old fashioned morals and a sense of pride,decency,doing the right thing or whatever you want to call it stands up he has no allies.
Besides his vast experience and undoubted wealth of knowledge he had never seen a burnt in tank lift pump and wanted to be cautious.

With hindsight its easy for those who have encountered it umpteen times in their daily life to say its safe as houses but as I said before people forget sods law,assuming the attitude that things cant happen for whatever reason,PFFT!
Experience tells me otherwise.
On those facts the mechanic had no liability to the car owner. The mech either did not contract to change the pump at all, or he did not commit to have the car roadworthy within a stated timescale.