50 years ago today at Boscombe Down...

50 years ago today at Boscombe Down...

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DamienB

Original Poster:

1,189 posts

218 months

Saturday 27th September 2014
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Johnnytheboy

24,498 posts

185 months

Saturday 27th September 2014
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What's that then? I have an inkling...

z06tim

558 posts

185 months

Saturday 27th September 2014
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TSR2

Was it really 50 years ago though?

civicduty

1,857 posts

202 months

Saturday 27th September 2014
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Beautiful machine in the flesh, scary looking avionics bays though.

z06tim

558 posts

185 months

Sunday 28th September 2014
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TSR2's are preserved at museums in Cosford and Duxford.

The wikipedia page is interesting too:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAC_TSR-2


CrutyRammers

13,735 posts

197 months

Sunday 28th September 2014
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The museum at Cosford is well worth a visit, not just for the TSR2 but it does kinda steal the show.

the pips

187 posts

138 months

Sunday 28th September 2014
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I did my apprenticeship at B.A.C. Brooklands back in the late 60s. One of the very first things we learnt was oxy-acetylene cutting. And we got to practice on the TSR2 jigs. The rumours were that it was part of a deal with the americans over the f-111. Being naive we thought they meant the BAC 1-11.

Regards
Doug

DamienB

Original Poster:

1,189 posts

218 months

Sunday 28th September 2014
quotequote all
I never found the slightest hint of any dodgy dealings in my researches. The Americans offered a cheaper alternative; we accepted. They then sweetened the deal with a good loan; they then accepted an exchange whereby we sold them lots of stuff too. And we screwed them and cancelled the F-111, so they screwed us in return and cancelled all the buys they were in the progress of carrying out. A sad chain of affairs really, but that was how it went...

As for the TSR2 itself, a hugely impressive aeroplane but by the time it was cancelled the RAF didn't want it, because it was too big, too heavy, too expensive and too limited.

IanMorewood

4,309 posts

247 months

Sunday 28th September 2014
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Sydney Camm summed up the TSR2 project well with

"All modern aircraft have four dimensions: Span, Length, Height and Politics. TSR2 simply got the first three right"

In effect it would have been capable air intruder not dissimilar in role to the Tonka just delivered a decade earlier than the Tornado.

brenflys777

2,678 posts

176 months

Sunday 28th September 2014
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I'm 10 minutes away from Cosford and a frequent visitor to the TSR2 with my kids. One thing I can't help but notice is the size of the computer/avionics bays that they show exposed at Cosford, which would have provided ample opportunity for development, given the chance.

Gorgeous machine.

dr_gn

16,140 posts

183 months

Sunday 28th September 2014
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IanMorewood said:
Sydney Camm summed up the TSR2 project well with

"All modern aircraft have four dimensions: Span, Length, Height and Politics. TSR2 simply got the first three right"

In effect it would have been capable air intruder not dissimilar in role to the Tonka just delivered a decade earlier than the Tornado.
Would have been nothing like as versatile as the Tornado. On balance it was right to dump it IMO.

Eric Mc

121,779 posts

264 months

Sunday 28th September 2014
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I wonder what its service entry date would actually have been - by the time they had sorted out all the problems. I would strongly recommend this book which came out recently which is a very fair assessment of the programme -


IanMorewood

4,309 posts

247 months

Sunday 28th September 2014
quotequote all
dr_gn said:
Would have been nothing like as versatile as the Tornado. On balance it was right to dump it IMO.
Agreed given the fact that the RAF lost the deterrent and that their was in the end no need to invade heavily fortified airspace at zero feet the TSR would have had a short shelf life.

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 29th September 2014
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I've always found it to be a slightly "awkward" looking thing! Not sure if that is a result of it trying to be a jack of all trades, but the design just always seemed a bit odd to me. Planes like the Tonka, F16 / F15 and even the lightning, just have an airframe that "looks" right for what the plane was intended to do!

Eric Mc

121,779 posts

264 months

Monday 29th September 2014
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I'm not so sure about that. Once an aircraft enters service, one gets used to its looks and it seems to "fit" whatever role it is carrying out. The TSR2 never got that opportunity.

Its basic "shape" was derived in the late 1950s so it is a generation older than aircraft such as the Tornado, F-15 and F-16.

I would look at the aircraft that were being designed and flown around the same era and would compare how the TSR2 would have stacked up against those. The General Dynamics F-111 is the obvious comparison.

Johnnytheboy

24,498 posts

185 months

Monday 29th September 2014
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If it had gone in to service, I wonder how long it would have been in use for?

Eric Mc

121,779 posts

264 months

Monday 29th September 2014
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I would expect that it would have soldiered on into the mid/late 1990s. If it had gone into service, the RAF would probably not have needed Jaguars, Buccaneers or Tornadoes. The Vulcans might have been retired by the end of the 70s.

I am pretty sure we would have seen TSR2s in operational use during Gulf War 1, the Kosovo Crisis and perhaps Gulf War 2.

And I bet they would have been retired with no adequate replacement on the horizon, which seems to be par for the course these days.

Hooli

32,278 posts

199 months

Monday 29th September 2014
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Slightly O/T - We found more old newspapers stuffed into gaps while restoring our cottage. So a few days ago I was reading the Daily Express from 1966 talking about the announcement these were axed by the budget.

Seight_Returns

1,640 posts

200 months

Monday 29th September 2014
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Do we know what "name" the TSR2 would have been given when it entered service ? Or would it have been one of the few British aircraft to be known by alphanumeric codes (VC-10, BAC1-11 etc) ?

Eric Mc

121,779 posts

264 months

Monday 29th September 2014
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The name "Eagle" was mooted.