STROKE:Traditional Chinese Medicine: Acupuncture, Reiki etc.
Discussion
Long Post Warning.
I'm sure this topic is likely going to divide us, so I'd really appreciate if the instant naysayers would just keep off the thread.
If you don't like none science (TCM) woo, [copyright EricMC in the science thread 'That's just Woo' and rubbish], then please go read something else.
So this is where we are at. (Possibly a bit of a long ramble)
My Dad had a stroke last year and he is fighting it as hard as he can. He's telling me that he's now running out of steam. The major problem being that his left leg is giving him massive 'stroke pain'. This is a fella that attempts to walk up the hill each day and desperately tries to ride his horse each day.
I asked him about keeping the horse and he said, "It's the reason we both get up in the morning", though in all fairness Mum is the one doing all the work. (By the way the horse is ace, and no trouble really - irrelevant fact).
Over the last few months he's been exercising and trying his best but the PAIN he has in his left leg is crippling him.
He's 80 years old now and is desperate to get back upon the horse, but the current meds he is taking aren't working. I'm desperately trying to convince him that some TCM treatment might help him, but I'm up against a wall. The wall being he worked as a researcher in heart disease all his life, and seems to be convinced of his views regarding Eastern (woo) and Western views of how medicine works.
Just recently he told me he thought cannabis might be an answer to his pain.
He's more than aware of the fact that death is looming, we've talked about it, but I just think that some treatment might be better than what he has got right now.
Could a few of you that have had experiences like this, perhaps tell your tales?
I'm sure this topic is likely going to divide us, so I'd really appreciate if the instant naysayers would just keep off the thread.
If you don't like none science (TCM) woo, [copyright EricMC in the science thread 'That's just Woo' and rubbish], then please go read something else.
So this is where we are at. (Possibly a bit of a long ramble)
My Dad had a stroke last year and he is fighting it as hard as he can. He's telling me that he's now running out of steam. The major problem being that his left leg is giving him massive 'stroke pain'. This is a fella that attempts to walk up the hill each day and desperately tries to ride his horse each day.
I asked him about keeping the horse and he said, "It's the reason we both get up in the morning", though in all fairness Mum is the one doing all the work. (By the way the horse is ace, and no trouble really - irrelevant fact).
Over the last few months he's been exercising and trying his best but the PAIN he has in his left leg is crippling him.
He's 80 years old now and is desperate to get back upon the horse, but the current meds he is taking aren't working. I'm desperately trying to convince him that some TCM treatment might help him, but I'm up against a wall. The wall being he worked as a researcher in heart disease all his life, and seems to be convinced of his views regarding Eastern (woo) and Western views of how medicine works.
Just recently he told me he thought cannabis might be an answer to his pain.
He's more than aware of the fact that death is looming, we've talked about it, but I just think that some treatment might be better than what he has got right now.
This is what I wrote to my sister said:
As for Dad, it's evident that he's suffering, and if that was me I'd be trying everything. I've really tried to encourage him to go get some acupuncture or even some reiki.
I really can't fathom why he's so against it, even when I present the placebo argument, that being - if it works so what?
He was talking to me about trying to get hold of some cannabis for treatment of the pain, so it must be pretty bloody painful for him to resort to that.
I was having a read through this earlier;
http://www.yinyanghouse.com/treatments/acupuncture...
Seems to me to be almost 'scientific' in their approach. I'll have another gentle word with him when I get chance.
I had a fair bit of TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) treatments in my time in Thailand and Nepal, and it was superb. Then Mary put a needle in my left elbow once that took away all the pain of of my knackered right hip, she also showed me points in my hands that completely relieve asthma issues that work incredibly well.
There's another lady in town that did reiki on my elbow once - that turned out to be almost supernatural. At the time I couldn't explain it, still can't, but a few minutes of me sat with my eyes closed in a chair and all the heat in my elbow disappeared and my entire arm felt chilled.
Then there was the time I was going out with Angela back in London and she was suffering endometriosis. She'd been suffering for years with it. I found a Tibetan Dr just down the road from me in Woodford Green. One consultation, and a course of her medicine, some advice about diet and it never bothered her again.
What to do?I really can't fathom why he's so against it, even when I present the placebo argument, that being - if it works so what?
He was talking to me about trying to get hold of some cannabis for treatment of the pain, so it must be pretty bloody painful for him to resort to that.
I was having a read through this earlier;
http://www.yinyanghouse.com/treatments/acupuncture...
Seems to me to be almost 'scientific' in their approach. I'll have another gentle word with him when I get chance.
I had a fair bit of TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) treatments in my time in Thailand and Nepal, and it was superb. Then Mary put a needle in my left elbow once that took away all the pain of of my knackered right hip, she also showed me points in my hands that completely relieve asthma issues that work incredibly well.
There's another lady in town that did reiki on my elbow once - that turned out to be almost supernatural. At the time I couldn't explain it, still can't, but a few minutes of me sat with my eyes closed in a chair and all the heat in my elbow disappeared and my entire arm felt chilled.
Then there was the time I was going out with Angela back in London and she was suffering endometriosis. She'd been suffering for years with it. I found a Tibetan Dr just down the road from me in Woodford Green. One consultation, and a course of her medicine, some advice about diet and it never bothered her again.
Could a few of you that have had experiences like this, perhaps tell your tales?
Hi,
I'm really sorry to hear about your Dad and his suffering. It must be incredibly hard for him but he needs to recognise some achievements (if he doesn't already) that he's 80, recovering from a stroke and is still incredibly active despite the pain. When you wrote that he tries to walk up a hill every day I thought "good on him" but then that he tries to ride his horse as well, well that's impressive, full respect to the man.
I can't really offer any answers to getting your Dad to try alternative therapies, it's got to come from him to want to try them and not begrudgingly. He needs to be open to the possibility that they may help, the worst outcome is that he spends a bit of time and money somewhere else for a change, and maybe having that change of place could help too.
I understand exactly where you are with regards to his attitude to Eastern vs Western medicine techniques. I come from a medical family, maternal Grandmother and mother were nurses, my sister is a GP, they have a pretty closed door attitude to alternatives. I have a vaguely scientific/engineering background so can see where they're coming from. However I also suffer from depression, stress and anxiety and I'm currently in a crisis myself. Although I will be receiving traditional counselling support, and value that, I've opened myself up to any other possibilities now, no matter how 'daft' they may be, because I have far too much to lose if I can't get my condition under my control. For example I went to a yoga class last night for the first time ever. Despite being somewhat introverted I really loved it and didn't feel out of place getting into weird positions in a room full of strangers, and I had some moments of very rare calm during it that made it completely worth the effort to get out there.
If you can just convince your father somehow to view other options as 'complimentary' rather than 'alternative', so they work alongside the practices he does understand then perhaps that will help. Overcoming his deep set perceptions is the problem so tackling it with different language may be a start.
I wish you all the best and I hope he can find some relief soon.
Cheers,
Rob
I'm really sorry to hear about your Dad and his suffering. It must be incredibly hard for him but he needs to recognise some achievements (if he doesn't already) that he's 80, recovering from a stroke and is still incredibly active despite the pain. When you wrote that he tries to walk up a hill every day I thought "good on him" but then that he tries to ride his horse as well, well that's impressive, full respect to the man.
I can't really offer any answers to getting your Dad to try alternative therapies, it's got to come from him to want to try them and not begrudgingly. He needs to be open to the possibility that they may help, the worst outcome is that he spends a bit of time and money somewhere else for a change, and maybe having that change of place could help too.
I understand exactly where you are with regards to his attitude to Eastern vs Western medicine techniques. I come from a medical family, maternal Grandmother and mother were nurses, my sister is a GP, they have a pretty closed door attitude to alternatives. I have a vaguely scientific/engineering background so can see where they're coming from. However I also suffer from depression, stress and anxiety and I'm currently in a crisis myself. Although I will be receiving traditional counselling support, and value that, I've opened myself up to any other possibilities now, no matter how 'daft' they may be, because I have far too much to lose if I can't get my condition under my control. For example I went to a yoga class last night for the first time ever. Despite being somewhat introverted I really loved it and didn't feel out of place getting into weird positions in a room full of strangers, and I had some moments of very rare calm during it that made it completely worth the effort to get out there.
If you can just convince your father somehow to view other options as 'complimentary' rather than 'alternative', so they work alongside the practices he does understand then perhaps that will help. Overcoming his deep set perceptions is the problem so tackling it with different language may be a start.
I wish you all the best and I hope he can find some relief soon.
Cheers,
Rob
B19GRR said:
'daft' vs 'complimentary' rather than 'alternative'
Thanks for the reply, and sorry to cut your great post so short. 'Daft' is the area I'm struggling with. I'm currently running against his (wealth of scientific) opinion that the pain is in his leg and the problem is with his brain. So in his mind he is not being daft as no amount of sticking needles in his leg is going to fix his brain!I've explained that it doesn't really work that way, according to TCM there is an imbalance that potentially could be adjusted and that might involve sticking needles in his big toe or right elbow.
This really is one of those situations where I wish I'd paid a bit more attention during acupuncture class! Meanwhile he plays chess with Little Ex and removes his own queen to make it more of a challenge. His spirit and will to go on is quite remarkable, I know, inside I don't have that fire in me.
I think I'm going to have to push the placebo point on him, that being 'scientific' fact, and being one that he will actually acknowledge as potentially having a 'real' effect.
BTW - you have mail via PM.
Thanks!
When talking to him about the placebo as a way to strengthen you point about the mind being a strong tool in getting better, might be worth raising that when it come to placebos things like a saline injection works better than a sugar pill, even if the person taking it knows it's a placebo. Which is really goddamn weird. Was mentioned by Ben Goldache on QI if you want to do some more digging.
I am one of these "don't use TCM / alternative therapies" types, however I have no vested interest to declare, and professionally deal with demonstrating medicines work, and their regulations.
I'll avoid science and start with a fact. Traditional Chinese Medicine, would be banned were it not for the fact it's assembly on site means it falls in a loop hole. It often also alleviates symptoms, but not through the methods it claims.
It is instead often loaded with various steroids and opiates of an unknown dose, which will alleviate symptoms, at the expense of your immune system and other typical body functions. One can only speculate as to the damage this would cause in the long term.
I appreciate you don't want to hear the irrefutable evidence as to why it does not work. But instead please consider the fact it is taking an unknown dose, of an unregulated and potentially toxic compound.
I also feel obliged to point you in the direction of the Cochrane library, this is often regarded as the gold standard in demonstrating if a treatment works or not. It would be far more valuable to you than laymen on the internet.
I'll avoid science and start with a fact. Traditional Chinese Medicine, would be banned were it not for the fact it's assembly on site means it falls in a loop hole. It often also alleviates symptoms, but not through the methods it claims.
It is instead often loaded with various steroids and opiates of an unknown dose, which will alleviate symptoms, at the expense of your immune system and other typical body functions. One can only speculate as to the damage this would cause in the long term.
I appreciate you don't want to hear the irrefutable evidence as to why it does not work. But instead please consider the fact it is taking an unknown dose, of an unregulated and potentially toxic compound.
I also feel obliged to point you in the direction of the Cochrane library, this is often regarded as the gold standard in demonstrating if a treatment works or not. It would be far more valuable to you than laymen on the internet.
Prof Prolapse said:
I am one of these "don't use TCM / alternative therapies" types, however I have no vested interest to declare, and professionally deal with demonstrating medicines work, and their regulations.
I'll avoid science and start with a fact. Traditional Chinese Medicine, would be banned were it not for the fact it's assembly on site means it falls in a loop hole. It often also alleviates symptoms, but not through the methods it claims.
It is instead often loaded with various steroids and opiates of an unknown dose, which will alleviate symptoms, at the expense of your immune system and other typical body functions. One can only speculate as to the damage this would cause in the long term.
I appreciate you don't want to hear the irrefutable evidence as to why it does not work. But instead please consider the fact it is taking an unknown dose, of an unregulated and potentially toxic compound.
I also feel obliged to point you in the direction of the Cochrane library, this is often regarded as the gold standard in demonstrating if a treatment works or not. It would be far more valuable to you than laymen on the internet.
Can you expand upon this a little please? The needles are loaded with these substances, without the knowledge of the patients?I'll avoid science and start with a fact. Traditional Chinese Medicine, would be banned were it not for the fact it's assembly on site means it falls in a loop hole. It often also alleviates symptoms, but not through the methods it claims.
It is instead often loaded with various steroids and opiates of an unknown dose, which will alleviate symptoms, at the expense of your immune system and other typical body functions. One can only speculate as to the damage this would cause in the long term.
I appreciate you don't want to hear the irrefutable evidence as to why it does not work. But instead please consider the fact it is taking an unknown dose, of an unregulated and potentially toxic compound.
I also feel obliged to point you in the direction of the Cochrane library, this is often regarded as the gold standard in demonstrating if a treatment works or not. It would be far more valuable to you than laymen on the internet.
Prof Prolapse said:
I am one of these "don't use TCM / alternative therapies" types, however I have no vested interest to declare, and professionally deal with demonstrating medicines work, and their regulations.
I'll avoid science and start with a fact. Traditional Chinese Medicine, would be banned were it not for the fact it's assembly on site means it falls in a loop hole. It often also alleviates symptoms, but not through the methods it claims.
It is instead often loaded with various steroids and opiates of an unknown dose, which will alleviate symptoms, at the expense of your immune system and other typical body functions. One can only speculate as to the damage this would cause in the long term.
I appreciate you don't want to hear the irrefutable evidence as to why it does not work. But instead please consider the fact it is taking an unknown dose, of an unregulated and potentially toxic compound.
I also feel obliged to point you in the direction of the Cochrane library, this is often regarded as the gold standard in demonstrating if a treatment works or not. It would be far more valuable to you than laymen on the internet.
Hi, thanks for the reply.I'll avoid science and start with a fact. Traditional Chinese Medicine, would be banned were it not for the fact it's assembly on site means it falls in a loop hole. It often also alleviates symptoms, but not through the methods it claims.
It is instead often loaded with various steroids and opiates of an unknown dose, which will alleviate symptoms, at the expense of your immune system and other typical body functions. One can only speculate as to the damage this would cause in the long term.
I appreciate you don't want to hear the irrefutable evidence as to why it does not work. But instead please consider the fact it is taking an unknown dose, of an unregulated and potentially toxic compound.
I also feel obliged to point you in the direction of the Cochrane library, this is often regarded as the gold standard in demonstrating if a treatment works or not. It would be far more valuable to you than laymen on the internet.
My mistake here is not titling the thread correctly - perhaps I should not have not put TCM in the title.
I'm more interested in the physical therapies than any herbal ones, and having worked for a major pharma I agree with everything you've written about herbal treatments above.
Thanks.
ETA: I guess I wouldn't consider Moxa treatment during acupuncture a herbal remedy, but I guess it could be considered as such.
Edited by TheExcession on Friday 3rd October 16:33
In the past I poo poo'ed acupuncture, but after trying everything to help me walk without pain in both of my outer thighs, as a last resort I tried acupuncture - on my physios advice. It worked for me. Didn't think it would, but it did.
I'm trying to persuade my OH to try it now, on dodgy knees.
I'm trying to persuade my OH to try it now, on dodgy knees.
After the last visit to see him he was promising great results from the latest set of medicine that the doctor had offered.
It's not working.
Again I offered the placebo argument, he said "That won't work because I don't believe in it", I've tried the 'Well FFS try it before you deny it...'
I'll update here if I can finally get him to try it.
It's not working.
Again I offered the placebo argument, he said "That won't work because I don't believe in it", I've tried the 'Well FFS try it before you deny it...'
I'll update here if I can finally get him to try it.
Try Emotional Freedom Techniques. It's very woo but if a therapist doesn't tell him what they are trained to do to explain things, he'll put it down to distraction therapy (it's the complete opposite!) and it can work for pain management.
PS I think the woo thing comes from some anti-woo website.
PS I think the woo thing comes from some anti-woo website.
Hoofy said:
Try Emotional Freedom Techniques. It's very woo but if a therapist doesn't tell him what they are trained to do to explain things, he'll put it down to distraction therapy (it's the complete opposite!) and it can work for pain management.
PS I think the woo thing comes from some anti-woo website.
Sorry just off topic for a moment, did I read correctly on another post that you are of Chinese origin. PS I think the woo thing comes from some anti-woo website.
Long story short - I've always ridden a bike (used to do real long distance stuff 200ml plus in 12 hrs). 4 years ago I started feeling unwell, terrible vertigo (father had died of a stroke in 50's so I thought my time was up!) GP's answer - take anti-dizzy pills. My response was that I didn't want to mask it, but to cure it. Several bouts of this later I ended up in Hospital (ambulance crew said I showed classic symptoms of Heart Attack). Hospital checked bloods, did 3 ECG and couldn't find anything wrong - The Registrar suggested trying alternatives 'such as Acupuncture' Yes she specifically suggested it.
As soon as I had Acupuncture I immediately felt a change (difficult to put in words) and am now back to health with fortnightly Acu treatment. A couple of weeks ago I rode an old heavy mountain bike 100miles in 6 hours (not bad for a 55 yr old).
Anyone who says it doesn't work hasn't tried it.
Hope your dad improves.
As soon as I had Acupuncture I immediately felt a change (difficult to put in words) and am now back to health with fortnightly Acu treatment. A couple of weeks ago I rode an old heavy mountain bike 100miles in 6 hours (not bad for a 55 yr old).
Anyone who says it doesn't work hasn't tried it.
Hope your dad improves.
Edited by Fastpedeller on Wednesday 8th October 21:10
Fastpedeller said:
Long story short - [ 8< snip ]
A couple of weeks ago I rode an old heavy mountain bike 100 miles in 6 hours (not bad for a 55 yr old).
Anyone who says it doesn't work hasn't tried it.
Hope your dad improves.
That's bloody impressive! My old fella is 80, he still wants to ride his horse everyday, when he is not able for that he still makes a point of walking to the top of the hill behind the house, some days he does the walk twice, and having been on such walks I know it is a massive effort for him, yet once he is out there he seems like a completely different person.A couple of weeks ago I rode an old heavy mountain bike 100 miles in 6 hours (not bad for a 55 yr old).
Anyone who says it doesn't work hasn't tried it.
Hope your dad improves.
If I can just get his thinking beyond the 'woo' issue I'm sure it would help him. I've contacted the practitioner that treated me to ensure she is willing to try treating him, so if that door does open then I feel a bit more comfortable steering (dragging) him towards it.
Thanks for your post and story.
Hoofy said:
TheExcession said:
Sorry just off topic for a moment, did I read correctly on another post that you are of Chinese origin.
Yes, why?Whilst I'm an advocate of Western treatments, I find it hard to bridge the gap between Eastern medicine models and Western models.
The Western model seems to be 'Treat the disease and the body will heal itself' where as Eastern models seem to be 'balance the body and there is no disease'.
I guess it's a paradigm shift, a different way of looking at it all, one that I've experienced from both sides mainly from a Tibetan (rather than Chinese) medical point of view contrasted to the fact I worked for a major pharmaceutical Co once.
I never quite figured out (well I did really) why it was totally legitimate to rush the latest and greatest research compound through a heap of clinical trials and get it to market where as thousands of years of study in TCM was washed aside because you couldn't stuff the results through a gas chromatograph or hplc machine to satisfy the FDA.
Time upon time I'm reading and have talked with people that have had such positive results from Eastern medicine that it seems just stupid to ignore it.
Anyway, I'm planning my moves carefully, I've got my swerve/googly ball ready, after a week of him arguing that the problem is in his head where he had the stroke not in his leg, his physio did some TENS treatment this week which he said helped a bit. So now we have that issue sorted, treatment at a point where the damage is not located can help!
Once I get all the doors open, I'll lead him through it all. I wish he was a bit more hands on as a Dad, in terms of touchy-feely that is. I studied hand massage in Nepal and even I look at him and see the channels that are blocked. A competent and experienced acupuncturist will have a field day with him!
Bill said:
I assume he's been to the chronic pain team and tried amitriptyline (sp?) or gabapentine?
Acupuncture has a couple of well recognised mechanisms it could work through. Look up pain gate theory and endorphin release.
Yup Acupuncture has a couple of well recognised mechanisms it could work through. Look up pain gate theory and endorphin release.
I think he's on amitriptyline at the moment, they appear to be saving the gaba as a last resort. (My sister takes gabapentine for migraines - she says it gives her ace dreams!)To be honest, I'm reasonably familiar with pain gate and endorphin mechanisms, so is he (he's a Professor in cardiology and physiology) - I need to get him onside for a bit of 'woo' treatment though!
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