Advice needed on appeal for court appointed speeding fine
Discussion
Hi everyone,
Some of you may remember an earlier thread by me after I got flashed by a camera doing 50 in a 30. Probably not, here's the link if you're interested: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
The offence was for doing 50MPH in a 30 zone, flashed by a GATSO speed camera in the early hours of a dry morning. The road in question was a dual carraigeway A-road that goes through a city. Not the type that has cars parked either side, but not a full on motorway style road either. 50MPH was too fast, but not in the same way it would be through a suburb road. Nonetheless, it was a serious offence and one I hold my hands up to. Anyhoo, the offence was 1mph into the ACPO court summons guidelines, and so it went to court instead of being dealt with by means of FPN.
Anyway, I pleaded guilty by post. The hearing was on the 17th. I received a letter on the 30th (Stamped sent on the 29th) stating I had to pay a fine of £525 (£400 fine + victim surcharge and court fee) and been awarded 6 points. I submitted my means form with the plea which basically stated I dont have any spare income at all (Student taking a year out, in between work, have rent and living costs to pay and no steady work atm nor am I or have I ever claimed benefit). Because of this and the close threshold of the offence I feel the fine is far too steep. The 6 points is also a bit crap considering I was so close to just getting 3, but that is something I will take on the chin. The fine however feels disproportionate to my income and my offence.
I've been told I can apply for a payment plan and am waiting on a means form for that. I have also been told I can appeal to the crown court (however I'm not entitlied to legal aid so would have to self represent). I have an appointment with the citizens advice bureau to see if they can help, which is on friday.
In the meanwhile, is there any advice/information anyone can give as to whether this level of punishment is normal for my offence, what I can do, where I can go, etc?
Some of you may remember an earlier thread by me after I got flashed by a camera doing 50 in a 30. Probably not, here's the link if you're interested: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
The offence was for doing 50MPH in a 30 zone, flashed by a GATSO speed camera in the early hours of a dry morning. The road in question was a dual carraigeway A-road that goes through a city. Not the type that has cars parked either side, but not a full on motorway style road either. 50MPH was too fast, but not in the same way it would be through a suburb road. Nonetheless, it was a serious offence and one I hold my hands up to. Anyhoo, the offence was 1mph into the ACPO court summons guidelines, and so it went to court instead of being dealt with by means of FPN.
Anyway, I pleaded guilty by post. The hearing was on the 17th. I received a letter on the 30th (Stamped sent on the 29th) stating I had to pay a fine of £525 (£400 fine + victim surcharge and court fee) and been awarded 6 points. I submitted my means form with the plea which basically stated I dont have any spare income at all (Student taking a year out, in between work, have rent and living costs to pay and no steady work atm nor am I or have I ever claimed benefit). Because of this and the close threshold of the offence I feel the fine is far too steep. The 6 points is also a bit crap considering I was so close to just getting 3, but that is something I will take on the chin. The fine however feels disproportionate to my income and my offence.
I've been told I can apply for a payment plan and am waiting on a means form for that. I have also been told I can appeal to the crown court (however I'm not entitlied to legal aid so would have to self represent). I have an appointment with the citizens advice bureau to see if they can help, which is on friday.
In the meanwhile, is there any advice/information anyone can give as to whether this level of punishment is normal for my offence, what I can do, where I can go, etc?
You were advised to attend court in your original thread. That was your - or your legal representative's - opportunity to tell the court how sorry you were and plead any mitigation/reason why you shouldn't be bent over.
You chose not to.
I would suggest you now speak to a specialist motoring lawyer & ask & follow their advice.
Link here suggests you have 21 days to start the ball rolling:
https://www.gov.uk/appeal-against-sentence-convict...
although it does appear the grounds are quite limited if you failed to attend:
"You didn’t go to your trial
You should contact the magistrates’ court that passed the sentence or convicted you. This applies if:
you didn’t realise you had been convicted for an offence (eg speeding fine)
you were unable to enter a plea or mitigation at the time
you sent mitigation evidence documents to the court but don’t think they’ve been considered in your conviction
They’ll be able to let you know whether the case can be reopened."
You chose not to.
I would suggest you now speak to a specialist motoring lawyer & ask & follow their advice.
Link here suggests you have 21 days to start the ball rolling:
https://www.gov.uk/appeal-against-sentence-convict...
although it does appear the grounds are quite limited if you failed to attend:
"You didn’t go to your trial
You should contact the magistrates’ court that passed the sentence or convicted you. This applies if:
you didn’t realise you had been convicted for an offence (eg speeding fine)
you were unable to enter a plea or mitigation at the time
you sent mitigation evidence documents to the court but don’t think they’ve been considered in your conviction
They’ll be able to let you know whether the case can be reopened."
Edited by paintman on Wednesday 1st October 17:37
The normal fine for that speed is around 100% of your weekly income - reduced by a third if you plead guilty. If you have negligible income they should have assumed that it was £110/week for sentencing purposes - so you'd expect a fine of about £73 (plus costs and victim surcharge) depending on how they round it.
It sounds rather like the court might not have received your guilty plea and statement of means. If that happened your income would have been assumed to be £400/week for sentencing purposes (the notional national average), and you wouldn't have got the credit for a guilty plea. Instead you'd have been found guilty in your absence when you didn't turn up, and you'd have got a fine and costs roughly as you've received.
Have you asked the court if that's what happened? If so you *might* be able to persuade them to reopen the case and reconsider the fine rather than making a formal appeal, though it might depend on persuading someone that you really did send in the plea and means form and that you didn't just forget, or ignored the summons and hoped it would go away (unfortunately some people do that - not suggesting that you did).
It sounds rather like the court might not have received your guilty plea and statement of means. If that happened your income would have been assumed to be £400/week for sentencing purposes (the notional national average), and you wouldn't have got the credit for a guilty plea. Instead you'd have been found guilty in your absence when you didn't turn up, and you'd have got a fine and costs roughly as you've received.
Have you asked the court if that's what happened? If so you *might* be able to persuade them to reopen the case and reconsider the fine rather than making a formal appeal, though it might depend on persuading someone that you really did send in the plea and means form and that you didn't just forget, or ignored the summons and hoped it would go away (unfortunately some people do that - not suggesting that you did).
Absolutely terrible advice from paintman. You would be appealing against sentence, not conviction - so ignore just about everything he posted.
I'd echo Pantera's comments. It looks like they took a notional average salary as their starting point and applied a level B fine. My first thought was also that they may not have received your plea (and means) form. You should contact the court, ask someone to get the file - the info you want probably won't be on the computer system.
- Did they get your plea form or was the case proved in absence?
- Is your means form on the file?
- What has the clerk written, if anything, about the reasons for the fine?
A meeting at the CAB might be useful if you have some benefit forms to fill in.
I'd echo Pantera's comments. It looks like they took a notional average salary as their starting point and applied a level B fine. My first thought was also that they may not have received your plea (and means) form. You should contact the court, ask someone to get the file - the info you want probably won't be on the computer system.
- Did they get your plea form or was the case proved in absence?
- Is your means form on the file?
- What has the clerk written, if anything, about the reasons for the fine?
A meeting at the CAB might be useful if you have some benefit forms to fill in.
Can I recommend specsavers to you?
He is appealing the financial portion of his sentence NOT his conviction both of which are covered in the link. Over 50% of my post is quoting the advice given therein.
"you sent mitigation evidence documents to the court but don’t think they’ve been considered in your conviction".
ETA And also tells him that he should contact the court - or is that wrong as well?
He is appealing the financial portion of his sentence NOT his conviction both of which are covered in the link. Over 50% of my post is quoting the advice given therein.
"you sent mitigation evidence documents to the court but don’t think they’ve been considered in your conviction".
ETA And also tells him that he should contact the court - or is that wrong as well?
Edited by paintman on Wednesday 1st October 18:09
Thank you for all your advice, particularly AGTLaw and Aretnap. I was not aware that the guideline was based on a week's wages. I will contact the court tomorrow as soon as I can. Paintman, I was advised otherwise elsewhere that I would be looked upon more favourably with a plead by post and a letter of mitigation due to the savings in time and money for the court, hence my plea.
Face this kind of appeal regularly and to be blunt, don't fancy your chances. It's higher than you might expect, but not into the realms of excessive where I would an appeal court to interfere.
Guidelines don't entitle a fixed penalty, but make it an option. Once it gets to court, typical to start off at three times the fixed penalty (£100). Any exacerbating circs ? Seems quiet road, little traffic but pub closing time or something, where you would expect pedestrian traffic ? Have you got previous points ?
Perhaps your means form just didn't ring true to the court. e.g. no spare cash. Rich or poor, many plead this. What they sometimes mean is they choose to spend what they have on phones, sky etc. Choosing a year out, no work but not on benefits ! I'd want to know more. Finally what was car details ? If new and expensive, then there are means. Perhaps not regular income, but capital could be available.
Up north here there is no fee to appeal, so nothing to lose. But appeal courts will only interfere if we have done something wrong, or an excessive sentence. £1000 would be excessive. Upto £500 I think they would throw it out without a hearing.
Sorry it's not what you hoped to hear.
Guidelines don't entitle a fixed penalty, but make it an option. Once it gets to court, typical to start off at three times the fixed penalty (£100). Any exacerbating circs ? Seems quiet road, little traffic but pub closing time or something, where you would expect pedestrian traffic ? Have you got previous points ?
Perhaps your means form just didn't ring true to the court. e.g. no spare cash. Rich or poor, many plead this. What they sometimes mean is they choose to spend what they have on phones, sky etc. Choosing a year out, no work but not on benefits ! I'd want to know more. Finally what was car details ? If new and expensive, then there are means. Perhaps not regular income, but capital could be available.
Up north here there is no fee to appeal, so nothing to lose. But appeal courts will only interfere if we have done something wrong, or an excessive sentence. £1000 would be excessive. Upto £500 I think they would throw it out without a hearing.
Sorry it's not what you hoped to hear.
Thats fine, its good to hear both sides. I've been doing temp jobs and the like and barely getting by tbh. If all goes well I should be put forward for a full time role come monday. Even then, my income will not be £400 a week or close to that. The car was a 1995 328, not an expensive car but may have seemed like one in their eyes.
Update:
Transpires that the courts never received my plea. I have tried in vain to find the tracking number for when I sent it with recorded delivery, but have come up dry. Looks like I will have to take this to crown court if I wish to get a more tailored sentence. Can anyone advise on whether its worth doing?
Transpires that the courts never received my plea. I have tried in vain to find the tracking number for when I sent it with recorded delivery, but have come up dry. Looks like I will have to take this to crown court if I wish to get a more tailored sentence. Can anyone advise on whether its worth doing?
I think you can appeal to the magistrates' court initially on those grounds? Then the Crown court would be if you are outside the 21 days, and probably for other circumstances too.
If you sent it at a post office the tracking number should be on a standard receipt, the logo in red at the top.. That said, recorded/signed for might not be signed for if the court gets mail by the sackful, only special delivery is guaranteed signature. I don't think it will be a huge problem though.
If you sent it at a post office the tracking number should be on a standard receipt, the logo in red at the top.. That said, recorded/signed for might not be signed for if the court gets mail by the sackful, only special delivery is guaranteed signature. I don't think it will be a huge problem though.
Edited by Gareth79 on Saturday 4th October 01:13
Gooly said:
....I was advised otherwise elsewhere that I would be looked upon more favourably with a plead by post and a letter of mitigation due to the savings in time and money for the court, hence my plea.
OP, in your earlier thread you were advised by, amongst others, agtlaw, a leading practitioner of motoring law, but you decided to follow advice from somewhere else (I am guessing one of those absurd speeders' rights sites, but maybe it was some bloke in a pub, although they are pretty much the same thing). Are you going to do the same thing this time? Honestly, I dont really remember what bought me to plead guilty by post. I certainly didnt intentionally ignore any advice I was given here, and I won't ignore any further advice thats given. I have every respect for those on here, particularly people like agtlaw. Free professional legal advice is not something to be taken for granted. I guess for whatever reason at the time of the plea I had it in my head that it was best to plead guilty by post. If, god forbid this happens again, I will act differently.
Unfortunately, it has to be a crown court matter as I have no proof that it is the mistake of the magistrates and thus no grounds for a case reopening. That is at least what I have been told by the magistrate. I'm sceptical that my case would be looked upon favourably by the crown court, and really confused as to what to do now.
Unfortunately, it has to be a crown court matter as I have no proof that it is the mistake of the magistrates and thus no grounds for a case reopening. That is at least what I have been told by the magistrate. I'm sceptical that my case would be looked upon favourably by the crown court, and really confused as to what to do now.
I've got no reason to not post it, nor am I stupid enough to hope it would go away. It would also be quite an elaborate and largely pointless lie to make on an impersonal motoring enthusiast forum. Considering my licence went AWOL as well, I dont think it's implausible that the court didnt process my plea properly.
Gooly said:
Update:
Transpires that the courts never received my plea. I have tried in vain to find the tracking number for when I sent it with recorded delivery, but have come up dry. Looks like I will have to take this to crown court if I wish to get a more tailored sentence. Can anyone advise on whether its worth doing?
You posted previously and you were advised to appear in person. If you had, you wouldn't be posting. Transpires that the courts never received my plea. I have tried in vain to find the tracking number for when I sent it with recorded delivery, but have come up dry. Looks like I will have to take this to crown court if I wish to get a more tailored sentence. Can anyone advise on whether its worth doing?
You went to the effort to send your plea by Recorded Delivery, but didn't keep the docket so you could track it.
That would have been the only thing that might give you reason to appeal. With respect, you seem to be your own worst enemy.
In front of you on the Crown Court listing will be someone going to jail for something. You'll be ushered in and you'll be faced with a formal courtroom with a Judge and an opposing barrister with wigs on.
What are you going to say? "Your fine was unfair because I sent my plea by Recorded Delivery, but I lost the docket."?
Your fine is hard, but not excessive. Unless you can demonstrate to the court that it is excessive, not only will you be liable for the fine, victim surcharge, and first set of costs, you'll also be liable for the Crown Court costs. Probably another £150 from memory.
You don't seem to be a lucky man. I wouldn't trust your luck any more.
You're certainly right, I am my own worst enemy and no I'm not a lucky person by any means.
I've found the receipt for the original NIP. Does the NIP have a plea on it? Does proof of sending NIP to the police station mean anything?
Also, would demonstrating my current means form as some kind of reason for the fine to be excessive?
I've found the receipt for the original NIP. Does the NIP have a plea on it? Does proof of sending NIP to the police station mean anything?
Also, would demonstrating my current means form as some kind of reason for the fine to be excessive?
Edited by Gooly on Saturday 4th October 18:17
Gooly said:
Update:
Transpires that the courts never received my plea. I have tried in vain to find the tracking number for when I sent it with recorded delivery, but have come up dry. Looks like I will have to take this to crown court if I wish to get a more tailored sentence. Can anyone advise on whether its worth doing?
Do you really need advice ablut whether it is worth going to Crown Court over £400 or so?Transpires that the courts never received my plea. I have tried in vain to find the tracking number for when I sent it with recorded delivery, but have come up dry. Looks like I will have to take this to crown court if I wish to get a more tailored sentence. Can anyone advise on whether its worth doing?
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