eToro Trading Thread

[g4ry13]

Fair enough, i'm kidding obviously. It seems that these get rich quick seminars love to talk about earning passive income as the golden ticket.

[g4ry13]

Well if you're just after a trading platform then there's absolutely no reason to go for eToro. The only reason to use them would be for the copying a trader service.

[g4ry13]

Time for another weekly roundup. At this point there's pretty clearly 2 star performers and i'm thinking of just cutting the rest.

Noasnoas - +19.5% ROI on account.

MaxxizLT - +70% on account.

FCInvestment - I think he's had some sizeable swings this week, but it's +18% overall.

BestTraders - Down 37% and I never had much optimism in him.

Obviously doing this on dummy for an infinite time is a worthless exercise. So next week i'll think about this and consider putting some money behind Noas and Maxxiz starting from December. Or I decide it's not worth the effort / risk of incurring losses.

[EddieSteadyGo]

I have followed this thread with some interest. Personally I couldn't bring myself to use this as a serious investment method but maybe with an amount of money just for fun.

g4ry13 - have you looked at the FXpro supertrader system? I believe spreads are very competitive - they charge instead a fee on closing profitable trades.

[DonkeyApple]

g4ry13 said:

Possible. Also I think dummy accounts are included in the total.

The majority are demo accounts. The balance are tiny, sub $100 Asian or Eastern EU accounts.

Most systems are run off demo accounts.

Systems allow running losses to be hidden, the classic discretionary scam.

Systems earn through flow so incentivised to trade.

Back testing is rubbish.

Charting is rubbish.

Both are promoted by bookmakers to generate flow.

All retail fx houses are bookmakers.

MT4 demo data can be different to live data post execution.

Many brokers still use illegal plug ins to skew prices.

MT4 is desktop. Outside of some genuine pro systems I will always advise to swerve desktop systems as they can be rigged.

Enjoy.

[g4ry13]

DonkeyApple said:

The majority are demo accounts. The balance are tiny, sub $100 Asian or Eastern EU accounts.

Most systems are run off demo accounts.

Systems allow running losses to be hidden, the classic discretionary scam.

Systems earn through flow so incentivised to trade.

Back testing is rubbish.

Charting is rubbish.

Both are promoted by bookmakers to generate flow.

All retail fx houses are bookmakers.

MT4 demo data can be different to live data post execution.

Many brokers still use illegal plug ins to skew prices.

MT4 is desktop. Outside of some genuine pro systems I will always advise to swerve desktop systems as they can be rigged.

Enjoy.

Well the above is debatable.

More importantly....what's that got to do with me? I've been testing out some of these traders with varying degrees of success / failure. Had I put money on it, the result would have been identical. It's not possible for them to hide open losses on eToro, you can see open trades. Perhaps you should look first before talking about MT4 and all the other drivel.

[DonkeyApple]

Twenty years as one of the leading OTC specialists in the UK, that's all. But I appreciate that you all know more than I.

Have fun. Your experience will certainly make you richer. Just not financially.

[g4ry13]

DonkeyApple said:

Twenty years as one of the leading OTC specialists in the UK, that's all. But I appreciate that you all know more than I.

Have fun. Your experience will certainly make you richer. Just not financially.

Yes...we get it, i've seen what you have to say around here for all the years.

So are you saying that if I select some traders from eToro. Follow them for a few months I won't be financially richer? If so, would you like to bet on it? If i'm right, you can eat your words and donate to a charity of my choice. If i'm wrong then i'll feel it in my pocket and you can get some bragging rights.

With all your expertise, you should realise this is a pretty risk-free bet for you surely

[dom9]

Love a good bet!!!

Gary - I can't see the site at work (probably block trading sites) can you explain what happens to an open trade if you stop following a trader while it is on?

Will it close it at whatever price (loss/ gain) it is at at the time you stop following?

And what happens when you start following, does it only follow the next purchases that trader makes? i.e. it doesn't open positions on what they currently have, at whatever price they're at when you start following?

I am still tempted to 'play' for 'fun' with a very loseable amount or even get my buddy on there to see how he does...

[DonkeyApple]

g4ry13 said:

DonkeyApple said:

Twenty years as one of the leading OTC specialists in the UK, that's all. But I appreciate that you all know more than I.

Have fun. Your experience will certainly make you richer. Just not financially.

Yes...we get it, i've seen what you have to say around here for all the years.

So are you saying that if I select some traders from eToro. Follow them for a few months I won't be financially richer? If so, would you like to bet on it? If i'm right, you can eat your words and donate to a charity of my choice. If i'm wrong then i'll feel it in my pocket and you can get some bragging rights.

With all your expertise, you should realise this is a pretty risk-free bet for you surely

Select average burn rate of 6 months as it is the shortest investment window you could arguably get away with. Use real money account and follow real money traders. With MT4 the only relevant data is execution levels.

It would be useful industry analysis.

You'd need to donate to a charity of my choice. We could both settle on a UK children's charity?

[g4ry13]

DonkeyApple said:

g4ry13 said:

DonkeyApple said:

Twenty years as one of the leading OTC specialists in the UK, that's all. But I appreciate that you all know more than I.

Have fun. Your experience will certainly make you richer. Just not financially.

Yes...we get it, i've seen what you have to say around here for all the years.

So are you saying that if I select some traders from eToro. Follow them for a few months I won't be financially richer? If so, would you like to bet on it? If i'm right, you can eat your words and donate to a charity of my choice. If i'm wrong then i'll feel it in my pocket and you can get some bragging rights.

With all your expertise, you should realise this is a pretty risk-free bet for you surely

Select average burn rate of 6 months as it is the shortest investment window you could arguably get away with. Use real money account and follow real money traders. With MT4 the only relevant data is execution levels.

It would be useful industry analysis.

You'd need to donate to a charity of my choice. We could both settle on a UK children's charity?

So win or lose i'm going to be out of pocket? That's a bit absurd seeing as I am the one incurring the risk to bet on something which according to you I am bound to lose. My reward is any profit I may make as a result of this.

If I win: I gain profit from the risk I have undertaken and you donate to a charity of my choice. If I lose: I will incur financial losses and you will be able to have bragging rights and say 'I told you so'. That was and still is the bet - at no point did I stipulate that I would donate to charity in the original terms.

Now....as it is the season of giving, I am feeling generous. In the event that I win and you donate to a charity of my choice. I am willing to donate a % of my profit to a charity of your choice. However, I will not be matching 1:1. It will be a % - this is called 'leverage', as you may be very familiar with in your 20 years in this business

As an aside: i'm not sure why we're talking about MT4 and execution levels. I'm just going to hit that 'copy' button and let the rest happen. At no point have I used MT4 for eToro.

[g4ry13]

dom9 said:

Love a good bet!!!

Gary - I can't see the site at work (probably block trading sites) can you explain what happens to an open trade if you stop following a trader while it is on?

Will it close it at whatever price (loss/ gain) it is at at the time you stop following?

And what happens when you start following, does it only follow the next purchases that trader makes? i.e. it doesn't open positions on what they currently have, at whatever price they're at when you start following?

I am still tempted to 'play' for 'fun' with a very loseable amount or even get my buddy on there to see how he does...

No bet has been decided on, as you can see there's a few things to iron out. I'll evaluate on Friday whether I will commit money to this and the quantities/sizing if so.

You can either stop following or pause a trader. I am not so familiar with this admittedly. If you stop, I believe it will close out the trades along with it. If you pause, then it'll adhere to the orders unless you manually close it out.

When you start to follow a trader you have the option to follow their open trades which is obviously not a smart idea. Otherwise, you don't follow their open trades and will open new trades as and when the trader you are copying opens them.

[DonkeyApple]

g4ry13 said:

So win or lose i'm going to be out of pocket? That's a bit absurd seeing as I am the one incurring the risk to bet on something which according to you I am bound to lose. My reward is any profit I may make as a result of this.

If I win: I gain profit from the risk I have undertaken and you donate to a charity of my choice. If I lose: I will incur financial losses and you will be able to have bragging rights and say 'I told you so'. That was and still is the bet - at no point did I stipulate that I would donate to charity in the original terms.

Now....as it is the season of giving, I am feeling generous. In the event that I win and you donate to a charity of my choice. I am willing to donate a % of my profit to a charity of your choice. However, I will not be matching 1:1. It will be a % - this is called 'leverage', as you may be very familiar with in your 20 years in this business

As an aside: i'm not sure why we're talking about MT4 and execution levels. I'm just going to hit that 'copy' button and let the rest happen. At no point have I used MT4 for eToro.

I wouldn't gain any bragging rights, I would be depressed that another person has binned their hard earned money.

I win if you win. I've had people on social trading sites for several years looking for traders. We haven't found one. They all, to date, have over traded failing to understand execution costs v daily ave market movement or over extended positions as they've not understood risk.

The other given is that when you pay traders a reward based on their volume, they over trade and implode. Hence social trading pays for flow, especially one where execution is with a bookmaker not a broker.

So, if you can game the bookie on a consistent basis then I will also have won. You'll also be the first person to succesfully day trade on three pip spreads plus slippage.

To be honest, the fact that you willingly say that you don't know too much about it but are happy to call someone at the heart of social trading and automation in the UK wrong and offer a bet does kind of mKe you the perfect client for a CySEC house.

Edited by DonkeyApple on Wednesday 26th November 19:15

[trashbat]

You should listen to him

I don't know anything about the intricacies of trading, nor do I have any particular insights from inside the financial industry.

I can tell you, however, how easy it is to lose money, and that's purely from share trading - nothing leveraged, no complex platforms, just simple stuff.

I look at eToro, and I look at this thread, and I see gambling for the common punter without any technique to set you apart from a common or garden slot machine player. Maybe that's what you want, in which case fine, but don't drink so much Kool Aid that you start to think it's something else.

[g4ry13]

DonkeyApple said:

g4ry13 said:

So win or lose i'm going to be out of pocket? That's a bit absurd seeing as I am the one incurring the risk to bet on something which according to you I am bound to lose. My reward is any profit I may make as a result of this.

If I win: I gain profit from the risk I have undertaken and you donate to a charity of my choice. If I lose: I will incur financial losses and you will be able to have bragging rights and say 'I told you so'. That was and still is the bet - at no point did I stipulate that I would donate to charity in the original terms.

Now....as it is the season of giving, I am feeling generous. In the event that I win and you donate to a charity of my choice. I am willing to donate a % of my profit to a charity of your choice. However, I will not be matching 1:1. It will be a % - this is called 'leverage', as you may be very familiar with in your 20 years in this business

As an aside: i'm not sure why we're talking about MT4 and execution levels. I'm just going to hit that 'copy' button and let the rest happen. At no point have I used MT4 for eToro.

I wouldn't gain any bragging rights, I would be depressed that another person has binned their hard earned money.

I win if you win. I've had people on social trading sites for several years looking for traders. We haven't found one. They all, to date, have over traded failing to understand execution costs v daily ave market movement or over extended positions as they've not understood risk.

The other given is that when you pay traders a reward based on their volume, they over trade and implode. Hence social trading pays for flow, especially one where execution is with a bookmaker not a broker.

So, if you can game the bookie on a consistent basis then I will also have won. You'll also be the first person to succesfully day trade on three pip spreads plus slippage.

To be honest, the fact that you willingly say that you don't know too much about it but are happy to call someone at the heart of social trading and automation in the UK wrong and offer a bet does kind of mKe you the perfect client for a CySEC house.

Edited by DonkeyApple on Wednesday 26th November 19:15

I don't work hard for my money so don't worry about that.

Are you declining our friendly wager in the name of charity then?

[DonkeyApple]

g4ry13 said:

DonkeyApple said:

g4ry13 said:

So win or lose i'm going to be out of pocket? That's a bit absurd seeing as I am the one incurring the risk to bet on something which according to you I am bound to lose. My reward is any profit I may make as a result of this.

If I win: I gain profit from the risk I have undertaken and you donate to a charity of my choice. If I lose: I will incur financial losses and you will be able to have bragging rights and say 'I told you so'. That was and still is the bet - at no point did I stipulate that I would donate to charity in the original terms.

Now....as it is the season of giving, I am feeling generous. In the event that I win and you donate to a charity of my choice. I am willing to donate a % of my profit to a charity of your choice. However, I will not be matching 1:1. It will be a % - this is called 'leverage', as you may be very familiar with in your 20 years in this business

As an aside: i'm not sure why we're talking about MT4 and execution levels. I'm just going to hit that 'copy' button and let the rest happen. At no point have I used MT4 for eToro.

I wouldn't gain any bragging rights, I would be depressed that another person has binned their hard earned money.

I win if you win. I've had people on social trading sites for several years looking for traders. We haven't found one. They all, to date, have over traded failing to understand execution costs v daily ave market movement or over extended positions as they've not understood risk.

The other given is that when you pay traders a reward based on their volume, they over trade and implode. Hence social trading pays for flow, especially one where execution is with a bookmaker not a broker.

So, if you can game the bookie on a consistent basis then I will also have won. You'll also be the first person to succesfully day trade on three pip spreads plus slippage.

To be honest, the fact that you willingly say that you don't know too much about it but are happy to call someone at the heart of social trading and automation in the UK wrong and offer a bet does kind of mKe you the perfect client for a CySEC house.

Edited by DonkeyApple on Wednesday 26th November 19:15

I don't work hard for my money so don't worry about that.

Are you declining our friendly wager in the name of charity then?

Er, you seemed to decline

Still not sure why you are so aggressive/punchy. You need to face the reality that if you end up relying on some unknown, inexperienced kid punting a demo account at a Cypriot bookmakers for some of your 'investment' and then talk about it in public then someone is very likely to stand up and make the observation that you might just be doing something a bit silly.

[g4ry13]

DonkeyApple said:

g4ry13 said:

DonkeyApple said:

g4ry13 said:

So win or lose i'm going to be out of pocket? That's a bit absurd seeing as I am the one incurring the risk to bet on something which according to you I am bound to lose. My reward is any profit I may make as a result of this.

If I win: I gain profit from the risk I have undertaken and you donate to a charity of my choice. If I lose: I will incur financial losses and you will be able to have bragging rights and say 'I told you so'. That was and still is the bet - at no point did I stipulate that I would donate to charity in the original terms.

Now....as it is the season of giving, I am feeling generous. In the event that I win and you donate to a charity of my choice. I am willing to donate a % of my profit to a charity of your choice. However, I will not be matching 1:1. It will be a % - this is called 'leverage', as you may be very familiar with in your 20 years in this business

As an aside: i'm not sure why we're talking about MT4 and execution levels. I'm just going to hit that 'copy' button and let the rest happen. At no point have I used MT4 for eToro.

I wouldn't gain any bragging rights, I would be depressed that another person has binned their hard earned money.

I win if you win. I've had people on social trading sites for several years looking for traders. We haven't found one. They all, to date, have over traded failing to understand execution costs v daily ave market movement or over extended positions as they've not understood risk.

The other given is that when you pay traders a reward based on their volume, they over trade and implode. Hence social trading pays for flow, especially one where execution is with a bookmaker not a broker.

So, if you can game the bookie on a consistent basis then I will also have won. You'll also be the first person to succesfully day trade on three pip spreads plus slippage.

To be honest, the fact that you willingly say that you don't know too much about it but are happy to call someone at the heart of social trading and automation in the UK wrong and offer a bet does kind of mKe you the perfect client for a CySEC house.

Edited by DonkeyApple on Wednesday 26th November 19:15

I don't work hard for my money so don't worry about that.

Are you declining our friendly wager in the name of charity then?

Er, you seemed to decline

Still not sure why you are so aggressive/punchy. You need to face the reality that if you end up relying on some unknown, inexperienced kid punting a demo account at a Cypriot bookmakers for some of your 'investment' and then talk about it in public then someone is very likely to stand up and make the observation that you might just be doing something a bit silly.

I outlined my bet and then you introduced something about me donating to charity when that was never stated. I then countered and offered to donate a % of my profits. I haven't declined at all. I haven't even said i'm going to put £ behind this. I will decide that over the next few days.

I honestly struggle to follow what you were trying to get at with your first post here, some of the things you said: Talk of hiding running losses - you can't. Talk of back testing and charting - i'm not doing that. Your mention of MT4. Almost every point I could rip apart. It's like you didn't care to read my first post and came here to throw your extensive 20 years of experience in my face. I'm not even sure if you've looked at eToro and had a look at the copy trader feature and how it all works.

You'll see that throughout this thread I had very little optimism that there is much success to be gained from following someone on eToro. However, I believe there must be some anomalies and someone that is decent. If hand on your heart you don't think of all the thousands of people on there that not one is capable of returning a profit then simply take the other side of the bet. Then you can say 'ha, I told you so'. If I monitor some people, weed out the 'good' from the 'bad' and yield a profit - I guess any profits will be attributed to pure luck rather than the possibility there was someone who could return a +ve ROI. Even 1 profitable year doesn't mean much. Some of these hedge funds lose over a year or more - it doesn't necessarily mean they have no edge. Likewise, some 'good' traders in institutions perform way above their EV which doesn't make them 'clever' even if that may be your assessment of them.

[trashbat]

Many people - probably the vast majority - in every probability system believe that they can find or be the anomaly, be it proper trading or the National Lottery.

Why you? What are you doing that makes you special?

[DonkeyApple]

g4ry13 said:

DonkeyApple said:

g4ry13 said:

DonkeyApple said:

g4ry13 said:

So win or lose i'm going to be out of pocket? That's a bit absurd seeing as I am the one incurring the risk to bet on something which according to you I am bound to lose. My reward is any profit I may make as a result of this.

If I win: I gain profit from the risk I have undertaken and you donate to a charity of my choice. If I lose: I will incur financial losses and you will be able to have bragging rights and say 'I told you so'. That was and still is the bet - at no point did I stipulate that I would donate to charity in the original terms.

Now....as it is the season of giving, I am feeling generous. In the event that I win and you donate to a charity of my choice. I am willing to donate a % of my profit to a charity of your choice. However, I will not be matching 1:1. It will be a % - this is called 'leverage', as you may be very familiar with in your 20 years in this business

As an aside: i'm not sure why we're talking about MT4 and execution levels. I'm just going to hit that 'copy' button and let the rest happen. At no point have I used MT4 for eToro.

I wouldn't gain any bragging rights, I would be depressed that another person has binned their hard earned money.

I win if you win. I've had people on social trading sites for several years looking for traders. We haven't found one. They all, to date, have over traded failing to understand execution costs v daily ave market movement or over extended positions as they've not understood risk.

The other given is that when you pay traders a reward based on their volume, they over trade and implode. Hence social trading pays for flow, especially one where execution is with a bookmaker not a broker.

So, if you can game the bookie on a consistent basis then I will also have won. You'll also be the first person to succesfully day trade on three pip spreads plus slippage.

To be honest, the fact that you willingly say that you don't know too much about it but are happy to call someone at the heart of social trading and automation in the UK wrong and offer a bet does kind of mKe you the perfect client for a CySEC house.

Edited by DonkeyApple on Wednesday 26th November 19:15

I don't work hard for my money so don't worry about that.

Are you declining our friendly wager in the name of charity then?

Er, you seemed to decline

Still not sure why you are so aggressive/punchy. You need to face the reality that if you end up relying on some unknown, inexperienced kid punting a demo account at a Cypriot bookmakers for some of your 'investment' and then talk about it in public then someone is very likely to stand up and make the observation that you might just be doing something a bit silly.

I outlined my bet and then you introduced something about me donating to charity when that was never stated. I then countered and offered to donate a % of my profits. I haven't declined at all. I haven't even said i'm going to put £ behind this. I will decide that over the next few days.

I honestly struggle to follow what you were trying to get at with your first post here, some of the things you said: Talk of hiding running losses - you can't. Talk of back testing and charting - i'm not doing that. Your mention of MT4. Almost every point I could rip apart. It's like you didn't care to read my first post and came here to throw your extensive 20 years of experience in my face. I'm not even sure if you've looked at eToro and had a look at the copy trader feature and how it all works.

You'll see that throughout this thread I had very little optimism that there is much success to be gained from following someone on eToro. However, I believe there must be some anomalies and someone that is decent. If hand on your heart you don't think of all the thousands of people on there that not one is capable of returning a profit then simply take the other side of the bet. Then you can say 'ha, I told you so'. If I monitor some people, weed out the 'good' from the 'bad' and yield a profit - I guess any profits will be attributed to pure luck rather than the possibility there was someone who could return a +ve ROI. Even 1 profitable year doesn't mean much. Some of these hedge funds lose over a year or more - it doesn't necessarily mean they have no edge. Likewise, some 'good' traders in institutions perform way above their EV which doesn't make them 'clever' even if that may be your assessment of them.

I'm sorry but are you 5 years old?

I am desperately sorry to have hurt your feelings or to have threatened you. As I said the first time when you had an over emotional reaction, have fun playing.

And I feel sorry that you live in a world where your experience leads you to assume that someone would mock you for losing money.

[dom9]

Not sure why people have started having a go at Gary here - Would rather not scare him off this thread as I am enjoying it!

He is willing to do something very interesting and risk his own money on people he has acknowledged as 'unknowns'.

He is seeking to answer the question - can you hand your money over to someone on eToro and make an income off it?

It sounds like he is saying "if I don't, I don't" and isn't going to cry about it and nor is he going to put his life savings in there.

How do we know that these "Cypriot kids" aren't infinitely better traders than half the numpties in the The City and IFAs etc?

Of course, I am not calling all traders in The City or all IFAs numpties as they make up most of my close friendship group... Sadly