Floor joists - extending them

Floor joists - extending them

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Discussion

TA14

12,722 posts

257 months

Friday 21st November 2014
quotequote all
CoolHands said:
by the way the floor being pissed could be sorted by raising the boards and packing out etc I don't think its a major problem.
How are you going to do that when there's a floor built off the floor boards?

Mojooo

Original Poster:

12,668 posts

179 months

Friday 21st November 2014
quotequote all
TA14 said:
You could jack up the joists at mid span but then what? When you release the jacks the floor will just spring back down?
I think you would have to take off the extensions

Jack up the old (dark brown joists) and then insert the extensions again but level - which may involve messing around with the hole in the wall which I don't want to do.

Then that should keep them in place?

Problem is the floorboards may be twisted now. Will they go down flat? They have prob been liek that for weeks.

TA14

12,722 posts

257 months

Friday 21st November 2014
quotequote all
That would be quite a tricky and time consuming operation plus you'd end up with all the floor joists/floor except the corner high. Then trying to re-attach the extensions a few mm away from where they were will not be easy.

The best solution may be to drive in the screws and nails very deep in the high areas and plane them flat (assuming that it's only 3 or 4 mm) then place triangles of something, increasing in size with each layer, over the area in the corner with a dip. Then place a piece of 3 or 6mm thk ply over the whole floor with screws at 5" c/c each way smile

Unless you want exposed floorboards frown

Mojooo

Original Poster:

12,668 posts

179 months

Friday 21st November 2014
quotequote all
Sounds like a bodge!

Simpler to start again.

TA14

12,722 posts

257 months

Friday 21st November 2014
quotequote all
Hmmm. Maybe, OK yes and maybe. It depends how determined you are to have it perfect when it's finished.

FWIW it's usually easier to put a double thickness joist(s?) under the wall(s?) which is(are?) built off the floorboards, rip out the old floor and put in a new floor. Builders are usually quite careful about the level of new supporting wall, maybe adjusting the joist bearing level with a row of concrete bricks etc. But that's from day one. Who will pay for the work now?

Mojooo

Original Poster:

12,668 posts

179 months

Friday 21st November 2014
quotequote all
TA14 said:
Hmmm. Maybe, OK yes and maybe. It depends how determined you are to have it perfect when it's finished.

FWIW it's usually easier to put a double thickness joist(s?) under the wall(s?) which is(are?) built off the floorboards, rip out the old floor and put in a new floor. Builders are usually quite careful about the level of new supporting wall, maybe adjusting the joist bearing level with a row of concrete bricks etc. But that's from day one. Who will pay for the work now?
I have had a long and tortuous journey with this build which has taken months longer than it should have.

The building company have already take a big loss as the first builder bodged it and they had to spent a fortune doing it all over again.

On one hand I say leave it but on the other hand I say fk it, why shoudl I settle for 2nd best with all the crap I have been through.

I have SOME symnpathy because all things considered I can see how this may have occured.

If I went all out new I don't think they would go for it. I could possibly offer to contribute towards it as I would get a new floor.

As alluded to maybe I will get my own engineer out and see what they say.

One other reason for pressing for a new joist/floor is that the issue about the short joists goes.

I ama waiting the buidlers report first. I highly suspect it will downplay things.

Mojooo

Original Poster:

12,668 posts

179 months

Tuesday 2nd December 2014
quotequote all
OK had surveyors report back now - he reckons its all fine - natrual variation in the wood plus 65 year old house.


TA14

12,722 posts

257 months

Tuesday 2nd December 2014
quotequote all
Mojooo said:
I also cannot put skirting down in those rooms as the floor is buggered!
Mojooo said:
OK had surveyors report back now - he reckons its all fine - natrual variation in the wood plus 65 year old house.
So are you happy now? confused

Mojooo

Original Poster:

12,668 posts

179 months

Tuesday 2nd December 2014
quotequote all
TA14 said:
So are you happy now? confused
Sorry, no!

The surveyor is employed by the building company to oversee the work. I would say he is 'fairly' independent in some respects but I think he is plain wrong on this occasion. He is saying the unevenness is not caused by the recent building work when quite clearly it is.

I will employ my own surveyor now just to confirm for me whether what I have is OK from a structural perspective and acceptable or not from a standard of work perspective.

TA14

12,722 posts

257 months

Tuesday 2nd December 2014
quotequote all
Mojooo said:
I will employ my own surveyor now just to confirm for me whether what I have is OK from a structural perspective and acceptable or not from a standard of work perspective.
Hmmm.
ATTAK Z said:
A building surveyor will not be qualified to justify the capacity of the as built arrangement
Why not
Mojooo might have said:
I will employ my own surveyor now just to confirm for me whether what I have is OK and acceptable from a standard of work perspective and determine why I cannot put skirting down in those rooms
(I've take some liberties with the quoting system smile )

Mojooo

Original Poster:

12,668 posts

179 months

Tuesday 2nd December 2014
quotequote all
Something like that yes.

I will wait for the work to finish and then contact a company and get them to send out the person they think is apropriate - enginer or surveyor.

I've had 2 buidlers who are fairly impartial look at it (as in they are people I know and they wouldn't take on any work from me - so have no reason to egg it on) - both reckon there are problems with it - not only that but the problems are quite obvious.

ATTAK Z

10,591 posts

188 months

Tuesday 2nd December 2014
quotequote all
TA14 said:
ATTAK Z said:
A building surveyor will not be qualified to justify the capacity of the as built arrangement
Why not
If you had read my full post you'd know why not ... here it is to save you looking back ...

ATTAK Z said:
A building surveyor will not be qualified to justify the capacity of the as built arrangement unless he also has PI insurance to deal with structural issues. A good building surveyor will recommend that you gain the opinion of a chartered structural engineer ... to rely on any other opinion is not a good idea !
Try another structural engineer ... timber design is a bit of a black art at the best of times ... expert opinion and experience rule

TA14

12,722 posts

257 months

Tuesday 2nd December 2014
quotequote all
ATTAK Z said:
TA14 said:
ATTAK Z said:
A building surveyor will not be qualified to justify the capacity of the as built arrangement
Why not
If you had read my full post you'd know why not ... here it is to save you looking back ...

ATTAK Z said:
A building surveyor will not be qualified to justify the capacity of the as built arrangement unless he also has PI insurance to deal with structural issues. A good building surveyor will recommend that you gain the opinion of a chartered structural engineer ... to rely on any other opinion is not a good idea !
Try another structural engineer ... timber design is a bit of a black art at the best of times ... expert opinion and experience rule
and if you'd read my full post you'd see that the 'why not' refers to the suggestion below those two words; would you like a parrot? smile

ATTAK Z

10,591 posts

188 months

Wednesday 3rd December 2014
quotequote all
TA14 said:
and if you'd read my full post you'd see that the 'why not' refers to the suggestion below those two words; would you like a parrot? smile
In that case I would say that your post is confusing ... I've read it again (and yes I did read it in full prior to my last post) and it's still unclear which quote you are referring to ...

ATG

20,485 posts

271 months

Wednesday 3rd December 2014
quotequote all
TA14, your meaning wasn't obvious.

OP the longer you wait before getting an opinion from an expert, the less likely you are to get any remedial work performed without a huge fight which by the sound of it you might well lose anyway. If the joists do need fixing, the longer that work is delayed the more expensive the fix will be and the more resistance you'll face from the building company.

I'd say there is a fair chance that an engineer will say that it is not the best job, but is safe and you're going to be left in a grey area trying to negotiate what "good enough" looks like and relying to a fair extent on the goodwill of the building company. If you are actually going to try to do anything about this, I'd suggest you get cracking.

Mojooo

Original Poster:

12,668 posts

179 months

Thursday 4th December 2014
quotequote all
Another photo

http://1drv.ms/1yjZ5ID

There is more to it that in the photos as you can see effects in neighbouring rooms.

The 'bump' runs all the way to the back of the room and is noticeable when you walk on it. Simply cannot cover it with carpet and leave it.

I've emailed a couple of strcutural engineers so will see what happens.

TA14

12,722 posts

257 months

Thursday 4th December 2014
quotequote all
Won't the SE either say
"it's not ideal but it'll do" or "it's not ideal so add these bolts/bits of steel/bits of timber and it'll do" and either way you'll still have the same hogging floor.

Mojooo

Original Poster:

12,668 posts

179 months

Thursday 4th December 2014
quotequote all
TA14 said:
Won't the SE either say
"it's not ideal but it'll do" or "it's not ideal so add these bolts/bits of steel/bits of timber and it'll do" and either way you'll still have the same hogging floor.
He may do.

Firstly there is denial there is a problem from the other side - so if the SE says there is a problem that is one thing.

Secondly even if it is a quality issue as opposed to safety/structural - which I accept it most likely is - I would expect him to comment on quality and what can be done to fix it.

Yes you can go minor or major on the repairs. That is where the dispute will lie and it may go to court. I'd be more than happy to argue my case.

The problem I will face is that I will need to decide whether to go major or minor and if I go major I could end up losing in court later.

I need to weight up the cost differntials and all that first of course.

Mojooo

Original Poster:

12,668 posts

179 months

Sunday 21st December 2014
quotequote all
I've had a structural engineer round - awaiting the results. He was very limited in what he said (i.e didn;t give much away). I suspect I am going to get a very technical answer as to whether the floor is in line with regulations but no opinion on on whether I should accept it (quality). He did imply that the floor was outside of standards but obviously that doesn't resolves what happens going forward.

I've had a carpenter look at it and he says its all out shocking but he said he would be reluctant to repair it after someone has bodged it (no doubt something I will have a problem with goign forward.

I may also need a building surveyor to cover other aspects of work. Does anyone know if a building surveyor will talk about quality and advise whether something has been done properly? That way I can get them to look at the floor at the same time and they may offer more of an opinion.

Mojooo

Original Poster:

12,668 posts

179 months

Friday 16th January 2015
quotequote all
OK, SE been round and has said the floor is out of tolerance based on some buildings guidane. Remedy to be decided but there is likely to be a debate about it.

I have a question though. Referrign to my previous photo which shows a few joists next to eachother. I want to mark the walls with something so the run of joists is easier to see in a photo and I then want a straight line underneath so the differences can be seen. Is chalk the best thing - just run the chalk under the wood and it will put a clearer line which is easier to see in a photo as opposed to the wood colour.