Audi RS6 engine with porsche turbo gearbox
Discussion
Just had a thought - could be a stupid one though so bear with me.
I like the idea of an Audi engine - either the V8 turbo RS6 or the V10 later one, as i think they are a more refined engine than the LSx ones, and its a bit different which is what building a car is all about.
I appreciate that there are engine/gearbox mounts that will need fabricating - thats a given.
I would of thought that the biggest issue other than the wiring (but thats for another day) is the transmission custom parts using the all audi route, so is there any reason why the porsche turbo gearbox cannot be mated to the Audi engine with the use of an adapter plate like you would do with the chevy engines, then you could use the factory driveshafts and gear linkage to simplify things.
The porsche turbo clutch is 240mm diameter from what i have read, and assuming the Audi flywheel (most likely off a B5 RS4 if going RS6 turbo route) is the same size then you could use the audi pressure plate and the porsche friction plate, or at worst case scenario have a custom flywheel made up to suit the porsche clutch and starter motor.
interested to know if this is a route to consider or am i being a numpty getting carried away with 'thinking' too much.
I like the idea of an Audi engine - either the V8 turbo RS6 or the V10 later one, as i think they are a more refined engine than the LSx ones, and its a bit different which is what building a car is all about.
I appreciate that there are engine/gearbox mounts that will need fabricating - thats a given.
I would of thought that the biggest issue other than the wiring (but thats for another day) is the transmission custom parts using the all audi route, so is there any reason why the porsche turbo gearbox cannot be mated to the Audi engine with the use of an adapter plate like you would do with the chevy engines, then you could use the factory driveshafts and gear linkage to simplify things.
The porsche turbo clutch is 240mm diameter from what i have read, and assuming the Audi flywheel (most likely off a B5 RS4 if going RS6 turbo route) is the same size then you could use the audi pressure plate and the porsche friction plate, or at worst case scenario have a custom flywheel made up to suit the porsche clutch and starter motor.
interested to know if this is a route to consider or am i being a numpty getting carried away with 'thinking' too much.
Yes anything is possible but is it cost effective.
It would need a new flywheel as the Porsche clutch is a pull rather than push mechanism. Again you could fabricate a concentric slave cylinder release mechanism for the Audi clutch.
First thing you need to research is the relative length of the engines. You do not want the drive shaft position any further rearwards or you will have issues. An SBC or LS Chevy takes up all the available space forwards of the 'box so that is your first limitation.
Steve
It would need a new flywheel as the Porsche clutch is a pull rather than push mechanism. Again you could fabricate a concentric slave cylinder release mechanism for the Audi clutch.
First thing you need to research is the relative length of the engines. You do not want the drive shaft position any further rearwards or you will have issues. An SBC or LS Chevy takes up all the available space forwards of the 'box so that is your first limitation.
Steve
Why bother with the expense of a Porsche gearbox. The Audi 2.5tdi 2wd gearbox should bolt up with a lot less bother, plus being a diesel gearbox it should handle the torque. You can use a Quattro box, but you have to blank off the output to the rear wheels as it is no longer required. Spyker cars did that, but I don't think its a particularly great solution.
i was just thinking of the ease of using the factory option for the shifter and the drive hafts, but yes obviously if there is the clutch issue and the expense of the adapter plate it will most likely be 6 and two threes with regards to having custom driveshafts made up, and there will be an off the shelf clutch option.
Theres been plenty of internet threads on people converting V8 RS6 turbo cars to manual using B5 RS4 gearboxes and seem to handle the power into 600+ hp (i know its torque that kills gearboxes but those other cars will clearly have a good dollop of torques too)
with regards to the engine size the V8 RS6 engines are shorter than the LS7 and I've read somewhere, maybe here, that there is even room for the fuel tank between the engine and firewall to the cockpit, and yes the audi gearbox can be made shorter be removing the no longer needed centre diff and blanking it off.
Theres been plenty of internet threads on people converting V8 RS6 turbo cars to manual using B5 RS4 gearboxes and seem to handle the power into 600+ hp (i know its torque that kills gearboxes but those other cars will clearly have a good dollop of torques too)
with regards to the engine size the V8 RS6 engines are shorter than the LS7 and I've read somewhere, maybe here, that there is even room for the fuel tank between the engine and firewall to the cockpit, and yes the audi gearbox can be made shorter be removing the no longer needed centre diff and blanking it off.
jasongtr said:
Just had a thought - could be a stupid one though so bear with me.
I like the idea of an Audi engine - either the V8 turbo RS6 or the V10 later one, as i think they are a more refined engine than the LSx ones, and its a bit different which is what building a car is all about.
I believe Joop "Donkeasy" on this forum built a GTR with the V10 engine. Maurits "Maurits555" also on this forum has a Can-Am with the V10. You may try sending them a mail.I like the idea of an Audi engine - either the V8 turbo RS6 or the V10 later one, as i think they are a more refined engine than the LSx ones, and its a bit different which is what building a car is all about.
Edited by UltimaCH on Sunday 5th October 18:16
ok thanks, just an idea whirling around my head at the moment.
Just seen one site that suggests 'extensive' chassis modifications to fit the RS6 engine, if it is what they suggest and i appreciate everyones idea of extensive will differ but I'm not entirely happy with the idea of extensively modifying a chassis thats had a fair amount of design go into it.
The idea of an Ultima with any powerful engine is an exciting one, i guess i could just wait until I've got the chassis and decide from there what needs doing.
Just seen one site that suggests 'extensive' chassis modifications to fit the RS6 engine, if it is what they suggest and i appreciate everyones idea of extensive will differ but I'm not entirely happy with the idea of extensively modifying a chassis thats had a fair amount of design go into it.
The idea of an Ultima with any powerful engine is an exciting one, i guess i could just wait until I've got the chassis and decide from there what needs doing.
to me though its not about chasing big numbers, Ultima to me is about the fun (and sometimes hell I'm sure) of the build process, ending up with a rare car that will outrun most things on the road and track even with modest numbers, and the non chevy engine route is going to be a more refined car, theres no doubting that the chevy engined cars are massively capable and i would be very happy with one, however if a different engine such as an Audi one for the same or less money - i really dont want to be spending even more, then its something to think about at the very least.
The RS4 will be Quattro so will need modification to the rear PTO. See Hillys Esprit for what is possible with the tdi gearbox.
The Audi engines are very wide, plus from memory the sump fouls the lower chassis which is an area that would need modification. Also, being FSI, you are very limited in what ECU you can run. Specialist Components have an ECU that will be capable at the lower end of the market, otherwise you are looking at mega bucks.
Not that I have looked into it at all.
The Audi engines are very wide, plus from memory the sump fouls the lower chassis which is an area that would need modification. Also, being FSI, you are very limited in what ECU you can run. Specialist Components have an ECU that will be capable at the lower end of the market, otherwise you are looking at mega bucks.
Not that I have looked into it at all.
PTO = power take off, drive to the rear wheels.
The V10s are all FSI though.
Edited to add, the C5 RS4 engine isn't as powerful as an LS engine so doesn't make sense from a practical point of view, maybe from a technical point of view it may be nice to have a higher revving euro engine rather than a large capacity lower revving yank motor. Me, I looked at a V10 as the high rev scream of a V10 appealed. However, it was a challenge to fit and similar power can be had much more simply with an LS.
The V10s are all FSI though.
Edited to add, the C5 RS4 engine isn't as powerful as an LS engine so doesn't make sense from a practical point of view, maybe from a technical point of view it may be nice to have a higher revving euro engine rather than a large capacity lower revving yank motor. Me, I looked at a V10 as the high rev scream of a V10 appealed. However, it was a challenge to fit and similar power can be had much more simply with an LS.
Edited by MKnight702 on Sunday 5th October 21:10
MKnight702 said:
PTO = power take off, drive to the rear wheels.
The V10s are all FSI though.
Edited to add, the C5 RS4 engine isn't as powerful as an LS engine so doesn't make sense from a practical point of view, maybe from a technical point of view it may be nice to have a higher revving euro engine rather than a large capacity lower revving yank motor. Me, I looked at a V10 as the high rev scream of a V10 appealed. However, it was a challenge to fit and similar power can be had much more simply with an LS.
PTO - just involves removing the centre diff off the back of the gearbox and blanking it off surely?The V10s are all FSI though.
Edited to add, the C5 RS4 engine isn't as powerful as an LS engine so doesn't make sense from a practical point of view, maybe from a technical point of view it may be nice to have a higher revving euro engine rather than a large capacity lower revving yank motor. Me, I looked at a V10 as the high rev scream of a V10 appealed. However, it was a challenge to fit and similar power can be had much more simply with an LS.
Edited by MKnight702 on Sunday 5th October 21:10
C5 RS6 are plenty powerful enough, easily remapped to 550hp and thats without going big turbo route, some are running over 800hp, as I've said though for me its not about big figures, 550hp in a car that weighs less than a ton with no driver aids is plenty thanks
Hi JasonGTR,
I happen to know a great deal about these options as I have considered them myself. I am friends with a bunch called MRC tuning that have built an RS6 engined GTR and Ive been to them with my CAN am to tlk about engine options.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO8BQbeZNP8
http://www.rsfabrications.com/2009/11/17/mrc-tunin...
http://www.rsfabrications.com/2010/11/21/ultima-au...
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.65169303...
Another nice option would be a B7 rs4 emgome with the apr supercharger, bin the FSI... nice power modern engine, but still £££££££
Doing something unique will cost more money in the long run. The RS6 C5 engine is simply awesome and its how much power do you want? In a 4wd vehicle with electronics you can did some pretty mental things. I have an Audi b5 S4 v6 bi turbo which is essentially the same engine less 2 cylinders and it is also awesome, but my gut feel is that a turbo engine in a rear wheel drive car makes something pretty difficult to drive. my B5 over steers and the electronics helps sort it out, in an ultima id much rather have a flat torque curve you get with the v8s and superchargers than the slightly less predictable behaviour of turbos, Dont get me wrong the rs6 std turbos are predictable, but that second wallop of torque at the wrong point could send you pointing the wrong way.
So I looked at the V10s. You can pick up the s8 v10s pretty cheap 3-4 k but they need to much work to get good power out of them like the r8/lambo v10s, it hardly seems worth it. you are looking at silly money for a lambo/r8 engine. Im enjoying my SBC at the moment but thinking LSA like corvettedave mentioned or LS3 if I mellow by then!
.... there is the v10 engine note though..... hmmmm
Its hard to argue with the LS3s and they fit, they make good power and cheap for a brand new powerhouse! Honestly the Ultima is a unique enough car in the real world! for me anyway!
Oh and forget the quattro boxes. Get a 6 speed fwd from an a4 diesel box, fit a gripper diff and away you go.... happy to chat!
I happen to know a great deal about these options as I have considered them myself. I am friends with a bunch called MRC tuning that have built an RS6 engined GTR and Ive been to them with my CAN am to tlk about engine options.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO8BQbeZNP8
http://www.rsfabrications.com/2009/11/17/mrc-tunin...
http://www.rsfabrications.com/2010/11/21/ultima-au...
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.65169303...
Another nice option would be a B7 rs4 emgome with the apr supercharger, bin the FSI... nice power modern engine, but still £££££££
Doing something unique will cost more money in the long run. The RS6 C5 engine is simply awesome and its how much power do you want? In a 4wd vehicle with electronics you can did some pretty mental things. I have an Audi b5 S4 v6 bi turbo which is essentially the same engine less 2 cylinders and it is also awesome, but my gut feel is that a turbo engine in a rear wheel drive car makes something pretty difficult to drive. my B5 over steers and the electronics helps sort it out, in an ultima id much rather have a flat torque curve you get with the v8s and superchargers than the slightly less predictable behaviour of turbos, Dont get me wrong the rs6 std turbos are predictable, but that second wallop of torque at the wrong point could send you pointing the wrong way.
So I looked at the V10s. You can pick up the s8 v10s pretty cheap 3-4 k but they need to much work to get good power out of them like the r8/lambo v10s, it hardly seems worth it. you are looking at silly money for a lambo/r8 engine. Im enjoying my SBC at the moment but thinking LSA like corvettedave mentioned or LS3 if I mellow by then!
.... there is the v10 engine note though..... hmmmmIts hard to argue with the LS3s and they fit, they make good power and cheap for a brand new powerhouse! Honestly the Ultima is a unique enough car in the real world!
for me anyway!Oh and forget the quattro boxes. Get a 6 speed fwd from an a4 diesel box, fit a gripper diff and away you go....
happy to chat!good point about the turbo kick but its pretty progressive in a std RS6 V8, i doubt getting it up to 500/550hp will differ too much as the turbos will still be stock so minimal lag.
I know of MRC they are not far from me, and a mate takes his B5 RS4 there from time to time
All fact finding right now, still need to get my head round pumping £70/80k into one car too.
I know of MRC they are not far from me, and a mate takes his B5 RS4 there from time to time
All fact finding right now, still need to get my head round pumping £70/80k into one car too.
"and the non chevy engine route is going to be a more refined car"
the old sbc is not very refined, but new style chevys, ie ls3 etc, are great, very rev happy, just like a euro engine and a completely flat torque curve, which will lead to lovely smooth acceleration, ive had 2 LS3's with different power and have a sbc as well, so have a practical view on it, but yeah a V10 with sound great
the old sbc is not very refined, but new style chevys, ie ls3 etc, are great, very rev happy, just like a euro engine and a completely flat torque curve, which will lead to lovely smooth acceleration, ive had 2 LS3's with different power and have a sbc as well, so have a practical view on it, but yeah a V10 with sound great
I have a GM LSX motorsport block, billet bottom end, forged top end, ported heads, motorsport lifters, Double valve springs and 1.7 ratio rockers all this with a supercharger bolted on for good measure.
This lot cost a fortune and frankly it's wasted.
Power output is 525-550 at the wheels.
I am running almost no boost, just enough to keep the intake plenum positive pressure throughout the rev range. I have had significantly more out of this engine and with a bigger blower it is capable of really silly numbers but the truth is after a lot of experimentation I have found the streetable sweet spot for my car.
I can switch up to higher BHP for track If I want, but track days come and go and I'm just too busy with other stuff.
So If I were to build one of these from scratch it would be a LS3 with a mild tune.
IMO the LS3 is the bargain engine of all, cheap, easy and well suited to these cars.
You could go "Left field" and fit Audi, Lexus even a twin engine turbo Hyabusa set up but in the end it WILL cost you a fortune that you won't get back if and when you sell.
You could fit an LS7 but that will cost a fair chunk more wedge, they are a fine piece of hand built machinery and IMO probably more likely to get you a few quid more for your car come re-sale.
This lot cost a fortune and frankly it's wasted.
Power output is 525-550 at the wheels.
I am running almost no boost, just enough to keep the intake plenum positive pressure throughout the rev range. I have had significantly more out of this engine and with a bigger blower it is capable of really silly numbers but the truth is after a lot of experimentation I have found the streetable sweet spot for my car.
I can switch up to higher BHP for track If I want, but track days come and go and I'm just too busy with other stuff.
So If I were to build one of these from scratch it would be a LS3 with a mild tune.
IMO the LS3 is the bargain engine of all, cheap, easy and well suited to these cars.
You could go "Left field" and fit Audi, Lexus even a twin engine turbo Hyabusa set up but in the end it WILL cost you a fortune that you won't get back if and when you sell.
You could fit an LS7 but that will cost a fair chunk more wedge, they are a fine piece of hand built machinery and IMO probably more likely to get you a few quid more for your car come re-sale.
can't see as the Audi route would cost any more than an LS7 route and as for resale... who cares, if i were to build one with the Audi engine id do so for my own purpose not to think about the next owner (assuming there would even be one)
lets face it there will come a time where these other engine routes are more common and if they make the same power, make a better noise etc just could be worth the same or more as they are a rarer option.
lets face it there will come a time where these other engine routes are more common and if they make the same power, make a better noise etc just could be worth the same or more as they are a rarer option.
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