UKIP - The Future - Volume 3

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wc98

10,334 posts

139 months

Tuesday 21st October 2014
quotequote all
JustAnotherLogin said:
That document is just as much spin as its equivalents put out by the other side:
"EU in relative decline" - EU GDP is roughly parity with US. BRIC & Developing countries are catching but EU is still huge. Note also that how rich we as individuals are is GDP per capita - see below

"EU is falling further behind" - notice the sudden switch to Eurozone rather than EU? We aren't in the Eurozone so EU is what is important and IMF estimates for 2017 (the year they chose to use for obvious reasons rather than actual data) are $19.5bn (on PPP as they have used) - well above the Commonwealth and roughly on a par with China

"EU has relatively declining population". Well yes, I'd be more worried if EU population was keeping pace with developing countries. Notice also that the GDP per head (i.e. how rich each of us) is is doing rather better than the GDP figures, because China and Commonwealth are doing so via a bigger population, whereas our GDP is keeping pace but with stable population

etc

I know there are lies, damned lies and statistics, but it isn't hard to pick these apart
fair enough, but to me the current mess the likes of greece and to a lesser (though not by much) degree spain are in could be far easier to deal with if they had control of their own currency for a start .now the cracks are starting to appear in the german economy push is going to come to shove in the not too distant future. anyone that supports the situation that has lead to the level of youth unemployment we currently see in europe today must be crazy.

sjn2004

4,051 posts

236 months

Tuesday 21st October 2014
quotequote all
TheRealFingers99 said:
I'm not going to interview him personally -- one of us would be hospitalised. But did you see the link I posted:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/21/ni...

"Korwin-Mikke, whose party has two remaining MEPs and received 7.5% support in Poland during May’s European parliamentary elections, is one of the most outspoken figures within the far-right groupings of parliament.

In July, he declared in English that the minimum wage should be “destroyed” and said that “four million s” lost their jobs in the US as a result of the US president John F Kennedy signing a bill on the minimum wage in 1961.

He went on to claim that 20 million young Europeans were being treated as “negroes” because of the minimum wage. He refused to apologise and was fined 10 days of allowances for his comments.

Korwin-Mikke has also called for the vote to be taken away from women, has claimed that the difference between rape and consensual sex was “very subtle” and has said that Adolf Hitler was “probably not aware that Jews were being exterminated”."

And

"Iwaszkiewicz caused controversy when he reportedly said that hitting a woman could “help them come back down to earth”, which he later claimed had been a joke."

More here.
Lol huffington post...

So whats worse, some Polish dude talking obvious nonsense or a politician faking evidence so the country goes to war in Iraq and a few 100,000 die as a result?

eharding

13,594 posts

283 months

Tuesday 21st October 2014
quotequote all
sjn2004 said:
Did you?
Hardly - searching for the name alone returns enough damning material, most of it in Polish (at which point, Google can help).

You, on the other hand, chose to cripple your search criteria from the outset.

Your Google-Fu is weak, 'kipper.

sjn2004

4,051 posts

236 months

Tuesday 21st October 2014
quotequote all
eharding said:
sjn2004 said:
Did you?
Hardly - searching for the name alone returns enough damning material, most of it in Polish (at which point, Google can help).

You, on the other hand, chose to cripple your search criteria from the outset.

Your Google-Fu is weak, 'kipper.
Your failure to post a link suggests you found jack st. Looking through the comments on DM, some Poles say this guy never said what has been claimed.

eharding

13,594 posts

283 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
sjn2004 said:
eharding said:
sjn2004 said:
Did you?
Hardly - searching for the name alone returns enough damning material, most of it in Polish (at which point, Google can help).

You, on the other hand, chose to cripple your search criteria from the outset.

Your Google-Fu is weak, 'kipper.
Your failure to post a link suggests you found jack st. Looking through the comments on DM, some Poles say this guy never said what has been claimed.
Given that the Polish spelling for 'Hitler' is....'Hitler'...try a search for the terms "Janusz Korwin-Mikke Hitler".

That being said, if you're treating the comments section of the Daily Mail as gospel, then you're already out there tap-dancing with the pixies.



sjn2004

4,051 posts

236 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
eharding said:
sjn2004 said:
eharding said:
sjn2004 said:
Did you?
Hardly - searching for the name alone returns enough damning material, most of it in Polish (at which point, Google can help).

You, on the other hand, chose to cripple your search criteria from the outset.

Your Google-Fu is weak, 'kipper.
Your failure to post a link suggests you found jack st. Looking through the comments on DM, some Poles say this guy never said what has been claimed.
Given that the Polish spelling for 'Hitler' is....'Hitler'...try a search for the terms "Janusz Korwin-Mikke Hitler".

That being said, if you're treating the comments section of the Daily Mail as gospel, then you're already out there tap-dancing with the pixies.
Still no linky? Maybe the cupboards bare.

eharding

13,594 posts

283 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
sjn2004 said:
Still no linky? Maybe the cupboards bare.
WTF? - Google it youself, you lazy little herbert!

If you need an a example, here you go:

http://natemat.pl/66511,janusz-korwin-mikke-adolf-...



TheRealFingers99

1,996 posts

127 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
sjn2004 said:
Lol huffington post...
Repeated on BBC World News and etc.

sjn2004 said:
So whats worse, some Polish dude talking obvious nonsense or a politician faking evidence so the country goes to war in Iraq and a few 100,000 die as a result?
Both are very bad. Both should be punished. Arguably their Quislings should be punished too.

But presumably as the Polish crypto Fascists have 7.5% of the vote, some people believe them, and we've yet to see the damage they can do.



mrpurple

2,624 posts

187 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
Wombat3 said:
mrpurple said:
Wombat3 said:
Art0ir said:
Wombat3 said:
IMO he (and Heseltine) are about as unhelpful to the debate as to what we do about our EU membership & relationship with the EU as are the most ardent advocates of "Exit tomorrow".

Neither position seems to bear much relevance (or heed) to the realities of life.
Surely you can see how the ignorance from Tory grandees and the EU is only hardening Euroscepticism?

Many like yourself speak a lot of sense and are strong supporters of the softly softly approach, but each time something sensible is said, you are rubbished and belittled by homegrown europhiles and the EU itself.

Will their ever come a point where yourself and others will say "You know what, we tried, we didn't give up, we were helpful and constructive in every way possible, but the EU isn't interested and has insulted us at every opportunity possible - we're off!"
Absolutely (and personally I'm about there now).

I think the relevant point though goes back to something I said a long while ago....it is still important that we go through a negotiation process if for no other reason than it will go some way towards settling the debate within our own country. Assuming the process is fairly fruitless (and I think it might well be) then it provides both evidence & ammunition for the Br-exit brigade and also refutes any idea or accusation that things have been done too quickly or without due consideration from the Euro-philes.

A situation where anyone (on either side) can justifiably claim that the result was jammed through without proper debate and a fair vote will not do us any good at all.

There will always be some who can not accept a democratic outcome (QED, the SNP), but most will if they think that everything & everyone got a fair hearing.
In a way UKIP should be glad CMD et al had to be dragged screaming and kicking to where we are now. Had they freely given the promised referendum I am not so sure the result would not have been to stay in and that would have shot UKIP's fox once and for all, as per SNP for the time being at least.

But no they had to resort to all the name-calling (and much worse)all of which just served to make UKIP even more popular than they were even 2 years ago. I can't speak for others but I have never had the chance to vote whether we should be in or out but have been so incensed by all the bile from the pro camp that I am now even more anti EU than I ever was (although more knowledgeable about politics).
Its also fair to say that the UKIP of today is much more co-ordinated than it was even 2 years ago. 6 years ago the comment about fruitcakes & swivel-eyed loons was also not without some foundation (IMO).

UKIP is also only partly responsible for this debate coming to the fore (IMO). I think this day has been coming for a while & the irony is that the situation has been accelerated precisely because of the success of the UK (some would say despite being in the EU!) because that is the cause of the immigration issue.

If this place was a no hope, no jobs backwater then clearly we would not be looking at the immigration numbers we are.
What is the saying - Ignore...laugh...fight? I don't remember hugging, embracing and appeasing being included.. What's going on Womby? Does that mean we don't have to argue about immigration anymore?

Perhaps Dave has finally realised he can't kid us and keep making empty promises so now he is going to say we have all been singing from the same hymnbook all along.


Your new found imitation of UKIP is somewhat flattering however, I can't speak for others but I have a long memory and I am not blind or stupid enough to fall for it and doubt, come the GE, the voters will either... Assuming CMD is still the leader of the Cons that is...sorry.


This is not Boris' idea of embracing Kippers is it?

blasted dog waking me up at 3am furious

Edited by mrpurple on Wednesday 22 October 03:16

TheRealFingers99

1,996 posts

127 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
sjn2004 said:
I actually googled this party with the keyword holocaust expecting a stack of results. Nope, just links to todays press, so was this ever said in public as I would have expected lots of online references to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janusz_Korwin-Mikke

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Iwaszkiewicz

http://histmag.org/9553

Holokauście or Holokaust in Polski.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
as usual, fingers is having finger trouble.

in 15 minutes looking, I cannot find a single reference to Robert Iwaszkiewicz even mentioning the Holokaust.

what I do find is 100's of references trying to link him with such - best I can get is that the party leader of the KNP at some point made a comment (although I have not managed to find a direct link or quote of this either)

nice to see everybody g on a character assassination over something the guy appears not to have said?

unless the fingered one can come up with a solid link/quote?

2013BRM

39,731 posts

283 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
They're all the same, no difference, we'll see no change regardless of who gets in.......except for UKIP, who haven't been in yet, but once they are in they will become the same very quickly, then we'll want someone else to get in. Ad infinitum

CamMoreRon

1,237 posts

124 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
Guam said:
currybum said:
Is uncontrolled immigration from the EU a problem? I have not seen any data to suggest it is.

Given the "fixing immigration" is the main thrust of the argument for leaving the EU that ukip are putting forward, I would like to see the data that backs up that premise.

Before proposing radical solutions we should make sure we are completely convinced there is a problem, and if there is on what scale .
Well given the fact that the Data from Immigration is widely derided as being nonsense, so we dont actually know the figures with ANY degree of certainty (who leaves and who enters is but one small part of the problem) then doing that is nearly impossible. Those with a tin foil hat will suggest that it is deliberate, the more sensible of us will just suggest it is just a further illustration of government ineptitude.

These debates were much easier in the days of reliable government statistics, now areas such as this, Law and order and the NHS are almost impossible to debate in a sensible manner due to the ONS not being able to rely on the source data (something they will freely admit).
OH GOD, THE IRONY. THE HYSTERICAL, CRIPPLING IRONY. laugh

Does anyone remember what happened when I stated an increasingly common viewpoint on corporate tax avoidance? For those with short memories, I was slammed for not being able to provide detailed copies of Starbucks' accounts, and an analysis of how much tax they should have paid vs. how much was paid.

I'd like to re-emphasis currybum's original question:

Has anybody actually seen an investigation in to the cost / benefits of immigration, that can provide an objective break-down before reaching the conclusion that immigration = bad? All I have seen is "immigration costs 'xxx' per year" and the short-sighted assumption that if we stop it we can cut that from the budget.

I'd like to see some proof, please! Or you're all talking bks. wink

Axionknight

8,505 posts

134 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
Guam said:
The lengths the media have to go to to track down a party's manifesto when they wont release it ahead of a conference, shame on them, damned UKIP not behaving like every other party smile

Oh wait its the lib dems..............smile

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2801772/Li...

LOL Check out line one on page 2, these wacists are everywhere now smile
Accidently leaked on purpose to sound out the publics opinion IMO, the problem is, I wouldn't trust the Lib Dems to run a bath, never mind have them anywhere near the helm again - liars and sell outs, and it appears I am not alone in that as the opinion polls and recent by elections (apart from Eastleigh, a Lib Dem stronghold) have shown them to be floundering just about everywhere.

Clegg has turned his party in to a laughing stock.

Mojocvh

16,837 posts

261 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
"Does anyone remember what happened when I stated an increasingly common viewpoint on corporate tax avoidance"

indeed, sales of rope and knot tying books peaked for a short time.....

CamMoreRon

1,237 posts

124 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
Guam said:
No irony there at all as there are no hard data then the question is impossible to answer, of course you know that. One cant see what doesnt exist, there is some broad speculation out there, but its no more than licking your finger and sticking it in the air (ask any reputable statistician they will tell you the same thing).

That is as far removed from Irony as one can get, its basically reality no more no less.

Now if YOU can provide the said hard data based on verifiable migration figures feel free.
My point was more about how such a strong opinion can be formed with so little evidence, and it's ironic how that is clearly OK for some subjects, but not for others!

For example, I say that tax avoidance is lost revenue, and that with transparent accounting people like Starbucks would have paid a lot more CT to the UK. Now from what I garnered in previous discussions (if you can call them that) is that this is "kind of" accepted as being true, but the disagreement came around whether avoided taxes at this level is ok or not. Regardless, I was asked to show how much tax they should have paid in the UK if it weren't for clever tax accounting & business structuring; obviously I couldn't, as the accounts are not transparent by any stretch of the imagination, so the point was dismissed as ludicrous.

Contrast that to UKIP's anti-immigration fan club: I doubt a single one of you have seen, let alone are able to provide, detail of any kind as to how controlling immigration will save money. Yet you are all voicing it as the single largest issue regarding this country's economics.

So I'm just curious as to whether you Kippers know any detail, or whether you are actually masking xenophobia with claimed socio-economic issues.

Axionknight

8,505 posts

134 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
CamMoreRon said:
Contrast that to UKIP's anti-immigration fan club: I doubt a single one of you have seen, let alone are able to provide, detail of any kind as to how controlling immigration will save money. Yet you are all voicing it as the single largest issue regarding this country's economics.

So I'm just curious as to whether you Kippers know any detail, or whether you are actually masking xenophobia with claimed socio-economic issues.
Well, I say that illegal and mass immigration costs this country money - but as the figures around the amount of migrants working here are so varied from source to source, I must be shot down as being ludicrous, just as you were? So basically, you are moaning about being shot down, but doing the same thing yourself.

As an aside, a report on the radio this morning stated that deporting and controlling crime commiting migrants in the UK costs 850 million pounds a year, so there is a start, a tip of the iceberg, if you will.

Wombat3

11,962 posts

205 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
mrpurple said:
Wombat3 said:
mrpurple said:
Wombat3 said:
Art0ir said:
Wombat3 said:
IMO he (and Heseltine) are about as unhelpful to the debate as to what we do about our EU membership & relationship with the EU as are the most ardent advocates of "Exit tomorrow".

Neither position seems to bear much relevance (or heed) to the realities of life.
Surely you can see how the ignorance from Tory grandees and the EU is only hardening Euroscepticism?

Many like yourself speak a lot of sense and are strong supporters of the softly softly approach, but each time something sensible is said, you are rubbished and belittled by homegrown europhiles and the EU itself.

Will their ever come a point where yourself and others will say "You know what, we tried, we didn't give up, we were helpful and constructive in every way possible, but the EU isn't interested and has insulted us at every opportunity possible - we're off!"
Absolutely (and personally I'm about there now).

I think the relevant point though goes back to something I said a long while ago....it is still important that we go through a negotiation process if for no other reason than it will go some way towards settling the debate within our own country. Assuming the process is fairly fruitless (and I think it might well be) then it provides both evidence & ammunition for the Br-exit brigade and also refutes any idea or accusation that things have been done too quickly or without due consideration from the Euro-philes.

A situation where anyone (on either side) can justifiably claim that the result was jammed through without proper debate and a fair vote will not do us any good at all.

There will always be some who can not accept a democratic outcome (QED, the SNP), but most will if they think that everything & everyone got a fair hearing.
In a way UKIP should be glad CMD et al had to be dragged screaming and kicking to where we are now. Had they freely given the promised referendum I am not so sure the result would not have been to stay in and that would have shot UKIP's fox once and for all, as per SNP for the time being at least.

But no they had to resort to all the name-calling (and much worse)all of which just served to make UKIP even more popular than they were even 2 years ago. I can't speak for others but I have never had the chance to vote whether we should be in or out but have been so incensed by all the bile from the pro camp that I am now even more anti EU than I ever was (although more knowledgeable about politics).
Its also fair to say that the UKIP of today is much more co-ordinated than it was even 2 years ago. 6 years ago the comment about fruitcakes & swivel-eyed loons was also not without some foundation (IMO).

UKIP is also only partly responsible for this debate coming to the fore (IMO). I think this day has been coming for a while & the irony is that the situation has been accelerated precisely because of the success of the UK (some would say despite being in the EU!) because that is the cause of the immigration issue.

If this place was a no hope, no jobs backwater then clearly we would not be looking at the immigration numbers we are.
What is the saying - Ignore...laugh...fight? I don't remember hugging, embracing and appeasing being included.. What's going on Womby? Does that mean we don't have to argue about immigration anymore?

Perhaps Dave has finally realised he can't kid us and keep making empty promises so now he is going to say we have all been singing from the same hymnbook all along.


Your new found imitation of UKIP is somewhat flattering however, I can't speak for others but I have a long memory and I am not blind or stupid enough to fall for it and doubt, come the GE, the voters will either... Assuming CMD is still the leader of the Cons that is...sorry.

This is not Boris' idea of embracing Kippers is it?

blasted dog waking me up at 3am furious
UKIP is still not the answer to resolving these problems for the very simple reason that it is highly unlikely to form a government any time soon.


CamMoreRon

1,237 posts

124 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
Axionknight said:
Well, I say that illegal and mass immigration costs this country money - but as the figures around the amount of migrants working here are so varied from source to source, I must be shot down as being ludicrous, just as you were? So basically, you are moaning about being shot down, but doing the same thing yourself.

As an aside, a report on the radio this morning stated that deporting and controlling crime committing migrants in the UK costs 850 million pounds a year, so there is a start, a tip of the iceberg, if you will.
I'm highlighting a (not very) subtle hypocrisy.

The readiness to believe that immigration is a strong enough issue to found an entire electoral campaign on vs. the refusal to acknowledge the impact of tax avoidance - one accepted with little or no evidence and the other rejected due to lack of "concrete evidence".

850 million eh? I'd love to see a source for that number..

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
CamMoreRon said:
Yet you are all voicing it as the single largest issue regarding this country's economics.
I see quite a few people who appear to be sympathetic to some / all of UKIP views going to the trouble of saying that immigration is not one of their top concerns. So not all voicing it as the single largest issue as you incorrectly claim.
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