UKIP - The Future - Volume 3

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Silverbullet767

10,704 posts

206 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
Countdown said:
We should have a thread about "pointless policy statements which mean nothing in reality but will appeal to the Facebook generation". I'll start

1. Foreigners who kick puppies will be DEPORTED
2. We will really really really care about children, old people, and army veterans.
3. No nasty foreign people, unless they're clever, or can get us a gold medal in the olympics.
4. Every person in the UK must show a union flag on their person at all times.

Axionknight

8,505 posts

135 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
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Gaspode said:
So what other outcome can you obtain by exercising your vote, given that we have a FPTP system and your preferences are not shared by a sufficiently large proportion of other voters?

I repeat my analysis: if UKIP wants to get into power, it's going to have to increase the proportion of people who support it. To do this, it's going to have to attract people who don't currently support it. FPTP electoral systems favour centrist parties, they are the only ones able to appeal to sufficiently large numbers of people.
You vote for the party you want, because you believe they represent you and your views - they (UKIP in this example) won't get in obviously, but these things take time, and in politics it isn't always about being able to form a government - we have a coalition now and there is talk of another. Plus the very existance of parties pike UKIP and the support they gather can often cause the more mainstream parties to rethink their position - yeah that'll be a protest vote for some, but it's their right to vote that way.

I'm sorry to hear that you have so few principles, perhaps we should ban any party that isn't the Tories or Labour as a vote for anyone else is clearly a waste as they'll never get in........


powerstroke

10,283 posts

160 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
PRTVR said:
As has been many times before the problem for the Conservatives is not UKIP, but their very own policy's and the fact that people do not trust Cameron.
Exactly.

If the Tories actually went eurosceptic and instigated a referendumon the same day as the GE, Ukip vote would likely evaporate.
Still wouldn't vote Tory won't until CMD is gone don't like or trust him its not just the EU, green obsession and lack of vision are my main beefs, if it takes 5 years of grommit to kill him off then so be it!!!

Edited by powerstroke on Wednesday 28th January 07:59

Gaspode

4,167 posts

196 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
Axionknight said:
You vote for the party you want, because you believe they represent you and your views - they (UKIP in this example) won't get in obviously, but these things take time, and in politics it isn't always about being able to form a government - we have a coalition now and there is talk of another. Plus the very existance of parties pike UKIP and the support they gather can often cause the more mainstream parties to rethink their position - yeah that'll be a protest vote for some, but it's their right to vote that way.

I'm sorry to hear that you have so few principles, perhaps we should ban any party that isn't the Tories or Labour as a vote for anyone else is clearly a waste as they'll never get in........
Where have I said people shouldn't vote for UKIP? Quite the reverse, I have specifically encouraged people so to do if that is what they feel is what is likely to give them what they want. All I am trying to point out is that for many UKIP voters, exercising their right to vote is quite likely to give them the complete opposite of what they want, and therefore they may wish to consider the probable outcome.

I'm perfectly at ease with my principles. I know what outcome I want for Britain, and I am quite happy to support Cameron and the Conservatives at the moment because I feel they are most likely to deliver it. If the Conservative Party moves any further to the right, however, I would probably reconsider my support for them.

2013BRM

39,731 posts

284 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
Axionknight said:
Gaspode said:
So what other outcome can you obtain by exercising your vote, given that we have a FPTP system and your preferences are not shared by a sufficiently large proportion of other voters?

I repeat my analysis: if UKIP wants to get into power, it's going to have to increase the proportion of people who support it. To do this, it's going to have to attract people who don't currently support it. FPTP electoral systems favour centrist parties, they are the only ones able to appeal to sufficiently large numbers of people.
You vote for the party you want, because you believe they represent you and your views - they (UKIP in this example) won't get in obviously, but these things take time, and in politics it isn't always about being able to form a government - we have a coalition now and there is talk of another. Plus the very existance of parties pike UKIP and the support they gather can often cause the more mainstream parties to rethink their position - yeah that'll be a protest vote for some, but it's their right to vote that way.

I'm sorry to hear that you have so few principles, perhaps we should ban any party that isn't the Tories or Labour as a vote for anyone else is clearly a waste as they'll never get in........
I totally agree

allergictocheese

1,290 posts

113 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
2013BRM said:
Ah, the tactical vote, look, this is a crock because neither Cameron nor Miliband will take us out of the EU. CMD, like any politician, will say anything to win. You have to play the long game as tactical voting is music to the current lots ears and has kept the status quo for decades. Vote with your heart and head
The tories have promises a referendum. Labour have not. They are the only two parties who can deliver a referendum that gives us the choice.

UKIP have said they will not consider a coalition deal with Labour. Which leaves the Tories, who have already said they will offer a referendum in 2017.

The only two ways in which UKIP can influence our EU membership are these; they take sufficient votes from the Tories that Labour wins the election and therefore no referendum is delivered at all or, secondly, they attain sufficient MPs to be kingmakers for the Tories and only do so if the already promises referendum is brought forward.

As you can see, they very best they can achieve this election is to bring forward a referendum that is already on the table.

For my part, I don't understand the need to rush it along this year. The EU subject is far reaching, from economics to social policy to human rights and defence. The public are largely ignorant of many fundamental issues and consequences. Before being asked to choose 'in or out', both sides to the debate owe the electorate the chance to learn and therefore make an informed choice.

As such, UKIPs involvement in this election is largely unhelpful, as on one hand it might, ironically, remove the chance of a referendum by cementing Labour into power or, on the other hand, rush a referendum, the result of which might not go the way they want if they put the electorate on the spot too quickly (people are broadly afraid of change unless they can see positive reasons to do so).

jogon

2,971 posts

158 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
Your a deluded Cameronite if you honestly think the issues of EU and Immigration would have dare been addressed without UKIPs recent rise in the political spectrum.

Dave loves the EU and everything it stands for and will never ever give us a fair vote in a referendum on our membership.

But he will continue to roll out his plastic eurosceptics like Hannan for a token speech once a week or so.

Edited by jogon on Wednesday 28th January 08:36

Gaspode

4,167 posts

196 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
allergictocheese said:
he tories have promises a referendum. Labour have not. They are the only two parties who can deliver a referendum that gives us the choice.

UKIP have said they will not consider a coalition deal with Labour. Which leaves the Tories, who have already said they will offer a referendum in 2017.

The only two ways in which UKIP can influence our EU membership are these; they take sufficient votes from the Tories that Labour wins the election and therefore no referendum is delivered at all or, secondly, they attain sufficient MPs to be kingmakers for the Tories and only do so if the already promises referendum is brought forward.

As you can see, they very best they can achieve this election is to bring forward a referendum that is already on the table.

For my part, I don't understand the need to rush it along this year. The EU subject is far reaching, from economics to social policy to human rights and defence. The public are largely ignorant of many fundamental issues and consequences. Before being asked to choose 'in or out', both sides to the debate owe the electorate the chance to learn and therefore make an informed choice.

As such, UKIPs involvement in this election is largely unhelpful, as on one hand it might, ironically, remove the chance of a referendum by cementing Labour into power or, on the other hand, rush a referendum, the result of which might not go the way they want if they put the electorate on the spot too quickly (people are broadly afraid of change unless they can see positive reasons to do so).
yes Good analysis

Esseesse

8,969 posts

208 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
allergictocheese said:
2013BRM said:
Ah, the tactical vote, look, this is a crock because neither Cameron nor Miliband will take us out of the EU. CMD, like any politician, will say anything to win. You have to play the long game as tactical voting is music to the current lots ears and has kept the status quo for decades. Vote with your heart and head
The tories have promises a referendum. Labour have not. They are the only two parties who can deliver a referendum that gives us the choice.

UKIP have said they will not consider a coalition deal with Labour.
Unless they change their position on a referendum.

allergictocheese said:
Which leaves the Tories, who have already said they will offer a referendum in 2017.

The only two ways in which UKIP can influence our EU membership are these; they take sufficient votes from the Tories that Labour wins the election and therefore no referendum is delivered at all or, secondly, they attain sufficient MPs to be kingmakers for the Tories and only do so if the already promises referendum is brought forward.

As you can see, they very best they can achieve this election is to bring forward a referendum that is already on the table.

For my part, I don't understand the need to rush it along this year. The EU subject is far reaching, from economics to social policy to human rights and defence. The public are largely ignorant of many fundamental issues and consequences. Before being asked to choose 'in or out', both sides to the debate owe the electorate the chance to learn and therefore make an informed choice.

As such, UKIPs involvement in this election is largely unhelpful, as on one hand it might, ironically, remove the chance of a referendum by cementing Labour into power or, on the other hand, rush a referendum, the result of which might not go the way they want if they put the electorate on the spot too quickly (people are broadly afraid of change unless they can see positive reasons to do so).
The Conservatives are only holding a referendum because they're being put under pressure. Cameron would much rather not. For those that would like to leave the EU, I suspect we'd all like to actually have a good chance of leaving. Having a referendum with a pro-EU PM, after he has had his phony 'renegotiation', held at the end of 2017 when the rotating presidency of the EU is coming to the UK (so Mr Cameron can pretend that he's winning influence) doesn't seem like a good time to get the desired result for EU-sceptics.

968

11,964 posts

248 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
Gaspode said:
yes Good analysis
Quite right. The bottom line is, in most marginal seats in the SE, all UKIP will achieve is to deliver a Labour MP, and ultimately a Labour govt, possibly even in coalition with Libdems/SNP, which would be the worst possible combination. UKIP have back of a fag packet policies, dreamed up by a ranting opportunist in Farage, who (like Clegg in 2010) can say whatever he likes in opposition as he will never be in a position to make any actual big decisions. The irony of Al Murray is that he is the very mirror image of Farage, though that irony seems to be lost here.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

274 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
Gaspode said:
allergictocheese said:
he tories have promises a referendum. Labour have not. They are the only two parties who can deliver a referendum that gives us the choice.

UKIP have said they will not consider a coalition deal with Labour. Which leaves the Tories, who have already said they will offer a referendum in 2017.

The only two ways in which UKIP can influence our EU membership are these; they take sufficient votes from the Tories that Labour wins the election and therefore no referendum is delivered at all or, secondly, they attain sufficient MPs to be kingmakers for the Tories and only do so if the already promises referendum is brought forward.

As you can see, they very best they can achieve this election is to bring forward a referendum that is already on the table.

For my part, I don't understand the need to rush it along this year. The EU subject is far reaching, from economics to social policy to human rights and defence. The public are largely ignorant of many fundamental issues and consequences. Before being asked to choose 'in or out', both sides to the debate owe the electorate the chance to learn and therefore make an informed choice.

As such, UKIPs involvement in this election is largely unhelpful, as on one hand it might, ironically, remove the chance of a referendum by cementing Labour into power or, on the other hand, rush a referendum, the result of which might not go the way they want if they put the electorate on the spot too quickly (people are broadly afraid of change unless they can see positive reasons to do so).
yes Good analysis
no, a crap one.

allergictocheese said:
the tories have promises a referendum. Labour have not. They are the only two parties who can deliver a referendum that gives us the choice.
Tories have promised one last time, look what happened then?

May I point you at what Carswell said in his defection speech - Cameron is only saying this to get your vote, he has no intentions of carrying it out.

allergictocheese said:
UKIP have said they will not consider a coalition deal with Labour. Which leaves the Tories, who have already said they will offer a referendum in 2017.
No, they have not said that, they have said they will not go into coalition with anybody, just will act as support for a minority government if a deal can be struck on implementing their key policies.

allergictocheese said:
For my part, I don't understand the need to rush it along this year. The EU subject is far reaching, from economics to social policy to human rights and defence. The public are largely ignorant of many fundamental issues and consequences. Before being asked to choose 'in or out', both sides to the debate owe the electorate the chance to learn and therefore make an informed choice.
don't disagree with this, problem is nobody on the pro-EU side is interested in being honest about it.

it's simply staggering the amount of money and effort going into the pro-EU bandwagon at all levels, from LSE grants to publish more and more half-baked reports to the BBC pumping out pro-EU propaganda.

Look, the principal of the EEC was basically sound as a trade zone, after that it's all about the federal EU project to make the united states of EU.

Even at a basic level, you must see how undemocratic this all is?




FiF

44,078 posts

251 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
In case anyone is interested, two Word documents that you may like to read. They are OK virus checked to death.

Entry into the European Community 1971-73

The referendum on Europe 1975

turbobloke

103,953 posts

260 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
FiF said:
In case anyone is interested, two Word documents that you may like to read. They are OK virus checked to death.

Entry into the European Community 1971-73

The referendum on Europe 1975
Thanks for the links.

Gaspode

4,167 posts

196 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
turbobloke said:
FiF said:
In case anyone is interested, two Word documents that you may like to read. They are OK virus checked to death.

Entry into the European Community 1971-73

The referendum on Europe 1975
Thanks for the links.
Yes indeed, some excellent stuff there from one of our leading historians. From a quick skim read, his thesis seems to be:

1. The European Union project was always about ever-closer political and economic union leading to some sort of federal super-state. Everybody involved knew this.
2. British politicians and 'the establishment' alway recognised the inevitability of the European Union, and most of them came to the realisation that it would be better to be inside the canoe pissing out than outside the canoe pissing in.
3. They were unwilling/unable to trust the British public to make the 'correct' decision and carefully managed the messages to get the result they needed
4. When confronted with the practical implications of this, politicians of whatever kidney vacillated as politicians are wont to do, fearing for their own political careers more than the long-term interests of the UK and the European project.

Which appears to me to be a fair and objective analysis of the situation.

Axionknight

8,505 posts

135 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
yes


Edited by Axionknight on Wednesday 28th January 12:23

Zod

35,295 posts

258 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
Zod said:
Look, I know you're old, but I don't think you're as old as Dan Dare, so you should be able to see that the post with the 100 amazing policies has disappeared.
Come again?

As you seem to have issues with memory:

http://www.ukip.org/100_days_till_the_election_100...
Whoever posted it in the thread deleted it. Clear now?

Gaspode

4,167 posts

196 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
Axionknight said:
yes


Edited by Axionknight on Wednesday 28th January 12:23
So the difference between you and I appears to be that you think this is a bad thing, whilst I think it's a good thing...

tangerine_sedge

4,774 posts

218 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
and here it is again....

1. Get Britain out of the European Union
2. Get control of immigration with an Australian-style, points-based immigration system
3. £3bn more, annually, into our NHS which desperately needs it
4. Scrap tuition fees for students studying Science, Tech, Engineering, Maths, or Medical degrees
5. Pay greater attention to elderly care across the country
6. Cutting £9bn from our foreign aid budget
7. Give the people the ability to “recall” their MPs, without parliamentary or MP approval
8. Stopping our endless, foreign wars
9. Promoting a British identity, as opposed to failed multiculturalism
10. Allowing existing schools to become grammar schools

11. Ending PFI privatisation of the NHS, proliferated by Labour and the Tories
12. Ensuring our armed services are properly equipped for when we do need them
13. Establishing a Veteran’s Administration to look after those who looked after us
14. Encouraging inward investment with growth markets, not JUST the failing Eurozone
15. Overcoming the unfairness of MPs from devolved nations voting on English laws
16. Cutting bureaucracy, red tape, and wasteful spending from government departments
17. Cutting the same bureaucracy that hinders small businesses and entrepreneurs
18. Supporting our farmers with a Single Farm Payment Scheme
19. Ending the burdensome “green levies” that have added £000s to our energy bills
20. Scrapping the poorly planned HS2 project, saving up to £50bn
21. Opposing tolls on public roads – we’ve already paid for them
22. Supporting bus passes for pensioners with the support of local authorities
23. Foreign vehicles to require Britdisc passes to contribute to our roads they use
24. Ending the use of speed cameras as revenue raisers – they should be a deterrent
25. Protecting our green belt
26. A central list of brownfield sites for developers
27. Houses on brownfield sites to be Stamp Duty exempt on first sale
28. VAT relaxed for redevelopment of brownfield sites
29. Local referenda for large-scale development, if triggered by 5% of electorate
30. Introducing the ability for citizens to initiate national referenda
31. Withdrawing from the European Court of Human Rights
32. Reversing the government’s opt-in to the European Arrest Warrant
33. Negotiating bi-lateral agreements to replace EAW
34. No votes for prisoners
35. Full prison sentences should be served, parole on case-by-case basis
36. Replacing the Human Rights Act with a British Bill of Rights
37. Official documents to be published primarily in English
38. Cracking down on honour killings, female genital mutilation, and forced marriages
39. Reviewing the BBC licence fee with a view to reducing it
40. Taking non-payment of the licence fee out of the criminal sphere
41. Amend the smoking ban to promote choice for ventilated smoking rooms
42. Opposing plain packs for cigarettes, which has had no impact where trialled
43. Promoting the employment of young, British workers
44. Repealing the Agency Workers Directive
45. Encouraging councils to provide more free parking on High Streets
46. Simplifying planning regulations for long-term empty commercial properties
47. Extending the right of appeal for micro businesses against Revenue and Customs
48. Negotiating bespoke trade agreements with EU member states and worldwide
49. Reoccupying our seat at the World Trade Organisation
50. Abolishing inheritance tax

51. Introducing a 35p income tax rate between £42,285 and £55,000 – taking many public sector workers out of top rate of tax
52. Setting up a Treasury Commission to make sure big corporations pay their way in taxes
53. Abolishing the Dept of Energy and Climate Change and rolling retained functions into DEFRA
54. Introducing an Apprenticeship Qualification for students who don’t want to do non-core GCSEs
55. Scrapping the arbitrary 50% target for university attendance
56. Students from the EU to pay the same as International Students
57. Introducing more power for parents: OFSTED to investigate schools on petition signed by 25% of parents or governors
58. Guaranteeing a job in the police, prison, or border forces for anyone who has served 12 years in the Armed Forces
59. Priority social housing for ex-service men and women, and those returning from service
60. Veterans to receives Veteran’s Card to ensure they’re supported in event of mental health care and more
61. All entitlements to be extended to servicemen and women recruited from overseas
62. Establishing a National Service Medal for all those who have served
63. Encouraging local authorities to buy out their PFI contracts where affordable
64. Ensuring GP’s surgeries are open at least one evening per week where demand permits
65. Ensuring migrants have NHS-approved health insurance until they have paid into the system for 5 years
66. Ending hospital car parking charges
67. Replacing bureaucratic watchdogs with locally elected health boards for more transparency
68. Stopping the sale of patient data to big business
69. Ensuring a high standard of English speakers in the NHS
70. Amend working time rules to give trainee doctors, surgeons, and medics better environments
71. Encouraging and protecting whistleblowing to get to the bottom of poor performance
72. Ensuring migrants have jobs and accommodation before they can come to the UK
73. Migrants will only be eligible for residency after 10 years’ working here
74. Reinstating the primary purpose rule, bringing an end to sham marriage migration
75. No amnesty for illegal immigrants, or those gaining UK passports via fraud
76. Protecting genuine refugees by returning to the UN Convention of Refugees principles
77. British companies to be prioritised to deliver foreign aid contracts
78. Repealing the Climate Change Act 2008 which costs the economy £18n per year
79. Scrapping the Large Combustion Plant directive and redevelop UK power stations
80. Supporting the development of UK Shale Gas with proper safeguards
81. No new taxpayer subsidy for wind farms
82. Leaving the Common Agricultural Policy
83. Allowing parliament to vote on GM foods
84. Reinstating British territorial waters
85. Food to be labelled with country of origin, method of production, method of slaughter and more
86. Ban live animal exports for slaughter
87. Scrapping the Bedroom Tax
88. Child benefit only for children permanently resident in the UK
89. Future child benefit to be limited to first two children only
90. Ensuring an initial presumption of 50-50 parenting on child custody matters
91. Safeguarding visitation rights for grandparents
92. Supporting a streamlined welfare system and a benefit cap
93. Enrolling unemployed benefits claimants into workfare or community schemes
94. Placing revenues from shale gas into a Sovereign Wealth Fund to ensure future growth and security
95. Emphasising the immediate need to utilise forgotten British infrastructure like Manston Airport
96. No cuts to frontline policing
97. Prioritising social housing for those whose parents and grandparents were born locally
98. Reaffirming British laws, rather than allowing dual-track legal systems for minorities in the UK
99. Promoting patriotism and the importance of British values in our schools
100. Rebalancing Britain’s economy


I won't comment on every one, but the themes seem to be :

(i) Disentangle the UK from the EU.
(ii) Look after British born people first. If in doubt the local wins...
(iii) Benefits for people who've been in the military.
(iv) Benefits for Old people.
(v) promote the opposite of anything that some people have protested about.

As someone else pointed out, I particulalrly liked the Manston Airport one smile

Mrr T

12,229 posts

265 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
allergictocheese said:
the tories have promises a referendum. Labour have not. They are the only two parties who can deliver a referendum that gives us the choice.
Tories have promised one last time, look what happened then?

May I point you at what Carswell said in his defection speech - Cameron is only saying this to get your vote, he has no intentions of carrying it out.
The Conservatives promised a vote on the Lisbon treaty. However, the Lisbon treaty was already signed by the time they came to power so any referendum would have been a complete waste of money at a time of serious economic difficulties.
As for CMD I agree he is a Europhile. He has never said he is not. However, for the first time in this parliament we have a tory party in which a majority of MP’s are EU sceptics. You keep claiming credit for UKIP changing the tory party but it had already changed.

Esseesse

8,969 posts

208 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
The Conservatives promised a vote on the Lisbon treaty. However, the Lisbon treaty was already signed by the time they came to power so any referendum would have been a complete waste of money at a time of serious economic difficulties.
Why can there not be a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty after it has been signed? Why can it not be 'unsigned'?
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