UKIP - The Future - Volume 3

[RYH64E]

Allowing people into the country isn't the problem, the problem is the free stuff they get when they arrive. What would I be entitled to if I were to emigrate to, say Romania? Nothing much I guess, which is fair enough as I've never paid into their system, so if I decided to move there I'd have to make sure I had a job/house/money or I'd have a big problem, but it would be my problem not their's.

Keep free movement of labour (it's a good thing and works both ways) but cut back on the free stuff people get, if the rules mean that we can't cut free stuff for immigrants without cutting free stuff for the indigenous claimants then so much the better, cut the lot.

[blindswelledrat]

RYH64E said:

Allowing people into the country isn't the problem, the problem is the free stuff they get when they arrive. What would I be entitled to if I were to emigrate to, say Romania? Nothing much I guess, which is fair enough as I've never paid into their system, so if I decided to move there I'd have to make sure I had a job/house/money or I'd have a big problem, but it would be my problem not their's.

Keep free movement of labour (it's a good thing and works both ways) but cut back on the free stuff people get, if the rules mean that we can't cut free stuff for immigrants without cutting free stuff for the indigenous claimants then so much the better, cut the lot.

Amen to that.

[Zod]

don4l said:

The three most important pledges for me were, in no particular order:-

A bonfire of quangoes,

Reduce immigration to tens of thousands,

and

Referendum on Lisbon Treaty.

If I had voted Conservative at the last election, I would feel utterly betrayed.

Really?

You knew there would be no referendum, given Brown had ratified the Treaty. It wasn't in the manifesto in any case.

You don't think the deficit was more important than anything else?

[DeanR32]

RYH64E said:

Allowing people into the country isn't the problem, the problem is the free stuff they get when they arrive. What would I be entitled to if I were to emigrate to, say Romania? Nothing much I guess, which is fair enough as I've never paid into their system, so if I decided to move there I'd have to make sure I had a job/house/money or I'd have a big problem, but it would be my problem not their's.

Keep free movement of labour (it's a good thing and works both ways) but cut back on the free stuff people get, if the rules mean that we can't cut free stuff for immigrants without cutting free stuff for the indigenous claimants then so much the better, cut the lot.

In true PH style....This!

[don4l]

Zod said:

don4l said:

The three most important pledges for me were, in no particular order:-

A bonfire of quangoes,

Reduce immigration to tens of thousands,

and

Referendum on Lisbon Treaty.

If I had voted Conservative at the last election, I would feel utterly betrayed.

Really?

You knew there would be no referendum, given Brown had ratified the Treaty. It wasn't in the manifesto in any case.

You don't think the deficit was more important than anything else?

You are correct. I read the manifesto at the time and felt that it wasn't much different to Labour's manifesto.

I also knew that there wouldn't be a referendum, because I didn't trust Cameron. Remember, he had not admitted that he had no intention of letting us have a referendum when the 2010 elections took place.

You mention the defecit. However, the defecit is not, in itself, the problem. The real problem is the debt, and the interest that we, and our children, have to pay.

The debt has almost doubled under this government. Interest is currently running at £50Bn per annum, and rising. You may be impressed with this, but I am not.

[Mr_B]

RYH64E said:

Allowing people into the country isn't the problem, the problem is the free stuff they get when they arrive. What would I be entitled to if I were to emigrate to, say Romania? Nothing much I guess, which is fair enough as I've never paid into their system, so if I decided to move there I'd have to make sure I had a job/house/money or I'd have a big problem, but it would be my problem not their's.

Keep free movement of labour (it's a good thing and works both ways) but cut back on the free stuff people get, if the rules mean that we can't cut free stuff for immigrants without cutting free stuff for the indigenous claimants then so much the better, cut the lot.

Hang on, I thought they weren't coming for any free stuff, they were just coming to work ? So now you're saying this is the major problem behind it ? Most interesting. There is also no need to not have a 2 system approach to benefits and the like for recent migrants and people who haven't paid in. Why should I have my benefits cut if I lost my job after 20 years of paying in to be equal to someone who has been and paid in nothing like as long ?

The free movement is a disaster and nothing like equal. I would be all for it had the scummy housing estates of the UK emptied of trash that all went to clean toilets in Romania for 8 times less the minimum wage here and took with them large numbers of unskilled UK peeps, would have been fantastic.
The reality I suspect is a little closer to more skilled British people leaving to work in the EU and very few poor or unskilled having left at all. How many Brits do you think took the chance to go be a cleaner in Germany or Romania ?

The massive wasted opportunity that is immigration and good immigration has been totally spunked, for want of a better word. A country that had no problem attracting people to come and work for every single country on the planet instead just opened up the doors to anyone and everyone in the EU regardless of skill or even criminal record.
People should be massively angry here that we've lost billions from this, this country could have been so much better off.

[Zod]

don4l said:

Zod said:

don4l said:

The three most important pledges for me were, in no particular order:-

A bonfire of quangoes,

Reduce immigration to tens of thousands,

and

Referendum on Lisbon Treaty.

If I had voted Conservative at the last election, I would feel utterly betrayed.

Really?

You knew there would be no referendum, given Brown had ratified the Treaty. It wasn't in the manifesto in any case.

You don't think the deficit was more important than anything else?

You are correct. I read the manifesto at the time and felt that it wasn't much different to Labour's manifesto.

I also knew that there wouldn't be a referendum, because I didn't trust Cameron. Remember, he had not admitted that he had no intention of letting us have a referendum when the 2010 elections took place.

You mention the defecit. However, the defecit is not, in itself, the problem. The real problem is the debt, and the interest that we, and our children, have to pay.

The debt has almost doubled under this government. Interest is currently running at £50Bn per annum, and rising. You may be impressed with this, but I am not.

OK, let's talk about cutting the debt over the short term. Leaving aside the tiny foreign aid budget, what would you cut to reduce the debt, given we can't just rely on increased tax receipts from the return of growth? Really big cuts are need to make any dent in the debt, so I look forward to your answer.

[Camoradi]

RYH64E said:

My experience of 'ordinary people' is that most of them are lazy, selfish, untrustworthy, unreliable and stupid. That's based on many years experience of employing and working with such people. One of my more senior and trusted employees had a career in retail before joining me, his opinion of 'ordinary people', based on many years of interacting with them, is much worse than mine...

You seem to be an extraordinary person

[Mrr T]

Mr_B said:

The free movement is a disaster and nothing like equal. I would be all for it had the scummy housing estates of the UK emptied of trash that all went to clean toilets in Romania for 8 times less the minimum wage here and took with them large numbers of unskilled UK peeps, would have been fantastic.
The reality I suspect is a little closer to more skilled British people leaving to work in the EU and very few poor or unskilled having left at all. How many Brits do you think took the chance to go be a cleaner in Germany or Romania ?

I would suggest the emigration from Romania to the UK is similar to the emigration form the UK to the rest of the EU. Mainly made up of the skilled and educated.

[Yazar]

You suggest a lot of things MrT

[RYH64E]

Mr_B said:

Why should I have my benefits cut if I lost my job after 20 years of paying in to be equal to someone who has been and paid in nothing like as long ?

If I lost my job I'd get nothing other than contribution based Job seeker allowance for 6 months, then nothing. So under the current system my total, maximum claim would be <£2k. How much do you think you'd get?

[Bill]

Mrr T said:

The problem with populist policies is not their popularity but when they are impractical to implement.

Particularly if the person making the promise doesn't have to make a decent case for it because they can claim a pie in the sky saving to be made.

[brenflys777]

Zod said:

K, let's talk about cutting the debt over the short term. Leaving aside the tiny foreign aid budget, what would you cut to reduce the debt, given we can't just rely on increased tax receipts from the return of growth? Really big cuts are need to make any dent in the debt, so I look forward to your answer.

Regardless of your background, if you think that the foreign aid budget is tiny, then I think you have lost touch with us ordinary people.

The foreign aid budget will eclipse the Policing budget for the whole of the UK next year.

Osborne says that £25bn permanent cuts are needed to tackle deficit. The foreign aid budget amounts to over half of that target, but has been declared off limits. This isn't conservative its disgusting.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29402844

[Esseesse]

UKIP meeting Catholic Bishop today.

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/03/04/bi...

[Mr_B]

Mrr T said:

Mr_B said:

The free movement is a disaster and nothing like equal. I would be all for it had the scummy housing estates of the UK emptied of trash that all went to clean toilets in Romania for 8 times less the minimum wage here and took with them large numbers of unskilled UK peeps, would have been fantastic.
The reality I suspect is a little closer to more skilled British people leaving to work in the EU and very few poor or unskilled having left at all. How many Brits do you think took the chance to go be a cleaner in Germany or Romania ?

I would suggest the emigration from Romania to the UK is similar to the emigration form the UK to the rest of the EU. Mainly made up of the skilled and educated.

I would suggest there is a number of skilled people we might want and perhaps even need. I would further suggest that with that comes a large number of people who have zero skills and nothing to contribute which and which isn't happening in reverse with people leaving here to go there. The minimum wage is about 8 times less there, how many zero skills people would leave here to go there, 1 or 2 ? No one is going to go unless you have a ton of money already or unless you are skilled and going to make money.

I'd love to think it was all equal, but when talking Romania you have to factor in it's extreme poverty as to being nothing like the idea of open door immigration from the likes of France and Germany which is almost totally unnoticed in the UK.
When you have the equivalent of a third of all Romanians in the UK having been arrested in just the Met police area, something is very wrong and in no way equal as some like to pretend it is.

[jogon]

Esseesse said:

UKIP meeting Catholic Bishop today.

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/03/04/bi...

Bliar will be pleased.

[dandarez]

RYH64E said:

FiF said:

Of course it all depends on what one considers ordinary people.

It seems from your response that you have a condescending view of ordinary people as non employers and non taxpayers. That's a different facet of the tribalistic problem.

My experience of 'ordinary people' is that most of them are lazy, selfish, untrustworthy, unreliable and stupid. That's based on many years experience of employing and working with such people. One of my more senior and trusted employees had a career in retail before joining me, his opinion of 'ordinary people', based on many years of interacting with them, is much worse than mine...

As someone just pointed out - extra'ordinary' comment.

To me, I find that a condescending, superior than thou, load of crap. Or a total misunderstanding of the English language.
Could be either!

'Ordinary people' described as the above?
Who the hell are you then?
Please let us know how you describe yourself in general terms? The hoi polloi?
Perhaps I better take that back, I don't want to sink to your condescension!

The 'ordinary people' of this country are 'Joe Public', ie: the 'general public', the ones who work, pay their taxes, and go about their daily lives trying to get by amid all the crap put in place to hinder them doing it.

The people you describe as 'ordinary' are far from it. They are not 'ordinary', they are the 'minority', the ones who spoil it for the 'ordinary', and are far more likely to be from the 'criminal element' or the 'low life'.

[Zod]

brenflys777 said:

Zod said:

K, let's talk about cutting the debt over the short term. Leaving aside the tiny foreign aid budget, what would you cut to reduce the debt, given we can't just rely on increased tax receipts from the return of growth? Really big cuts are need to make any dent in the debt, so I look forward to your answer.

Regardless of your background, if you think that the foreign aid budget is tiny, then I think you have lost touch with us ordinary people.

The foreign aid budget will eclipse the Policing budget for the whole of the UK next year.

Osborne says that £25bn permanent cuts are needed to tackle deficit. The foreign aid budget amounts to over half of that target, but has been declared off limits. This isn't conservative its disgusting.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29402844

Compare the foreign aid budget with the national debt. WOuld it make any significant difference? Why is it relevant to compare it with the Police budget? They are two entirely different items.

The problem with foreign aid is not that it is given, but to whom it is given and on what it is spent.

[RYH64E]

dandarez said:

The 'ordinary people' of this country are 'Joe Public',

Indeed, the general public, the less I have to do with them the better.

I genuinely have a very low opinion of the general public, and the older I get the lower my opinion sinks. On the whole and with obvious exceptions, people are stupid.

[Mr_B]

RYH64E said:

Mr_B said:

Why should I have my benefits cut if I lost my job after 20 years of paying in to be equal to someone who has been and paid in nothing like as long ?

If I lost my job I'd get nothing other than contribution based Job seeker allowance for 6 months, then nothing. So under the current system my total, maximum claim would be <£2k. How much do you think you'd get?

With that can come housing benefit , council tax etc etc. I have claimed a few years back when I lost my job and wrote about it here. I got way more than 2K and could have milked it for 6 months easily, they were paying nearly all my private rent. There's much to be done on that kinda abuse, but on the basic idea of someone having work a large part of there life and never having claimed only to then being given the same as someone who has been here 5 mins , that is wrong. There is no harm at all that if you move to a vastly different country with vastly different benefits ( as per your UK /Romania analogy ) that you should recognise this and accept.