Ched Evans

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Discussion

ascayman

12,732 posts

215 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
Hackney said:
ascayman said:
The other thing here is that this guy has shown absolutely no remorse whatsoever.
If you were accused of something you didn't do would you show remorse?
I understand what you are saying, but he's been more than accused he's been convicted, according to the law he's a raspist and one that it would appear shows no remourse to his victims, that's a pretty scary combination.

Intrigued to see what happens during this appeal.

Bluebarge

4,519 posts

177 months

Tuesday 21st October 2014
quotequote all
ascayman said:
I understand what you are saying, but he's been more than accused he's been convicted, according to the law he's a raspist and one that it would appear shows no remourse to his victims, that's a pretty scary combination.

Intrigued to see what happens during this appeal.
Has there never been a wrongful conviction?

Do you think that the body set up to examine potential miscarraiges of justice is looking at this case just for a laugh, or perhaps because there "might" be grounds for an investigation?

Do you not think that, if you believe that you were wrongly convicted, and were preparing an appeal, "remorse" might not be appropriate?

Did other people whose convictions were subsequently over-turned show remorse? Can you see why not?

Ched Evans may have been convicted, and he may have been correctly convicted, but there are sufficient grounds to warrant an investigation into the safety of that conviction, that mean that those pitchfork-waving folk who love to judge others should perhaps stay quiet until the criminal justice process has run its course.

irocfan

40,152 posts

189 months

Tuesday 21st October 2014
quotequote all
ascayman said:
Hackney said:
ascayman said:
The other thing here is that this guy has shown absolutely no remorse whatsoever.
If you were accused of something you didn't do would you show remorse?
I understand what you are saying, but he's been more than accused he's been convicted, according to the law he's a raspist and one that it would appear shows no remourse to his victims, that's a pretty scary combination.

Intrigued to see what happens during this appeal.
here's the thing though - he says that he is sorry then his appeal is out of the window, he will forever be a rapist. The plain fact is if he's innocent he will forever be protesting his innocence - and in his shoes I'd be doing exactly the same

Bluebarge

4,519 posts

177 months

Tuesday 21st October 2014
quotequote all
Nom de ploom said:
Bluebarge said:
Nom de ploom said:
His profession should have no effect on sentence or consequence imho.
That contradicts your first paragraph.
no it doesn't. i'm saying he should lose his professional status as a footballer - it would be the same if he was a lawyer or an accountant....
Erm, yes it does. You say that he should lose his job because of his professional status, and then say his professional status should have no effect on his sentence. The two contradict each other.

But, that aside:
1. football is not a "profession" and the PFA is simply a trade union;
2. "professions" demand the highest standards of integrity, which is why you lose your professional status for certain offences (but not all);
3. see 1 above - being a paid footballer does not make you a professional;
4. nothing in his job would bring him into contact with the victim or future potential victims - he is paid to run around after a ball with other blokes;
5. the court system is responsible for punsihing offenders not the press, or politicians, or internet vigilantes;
6. once the court's punishment has been served, the offender should be rehabilitated, this generally involves taking up employment again which, where possible, should be the same as held before punishment unless that is for some reason inappropriate (see 4 above);
7. end of story - the "system" of punishing then rehabilitating offenders has worked as above for decades, I see no reason to change it because some people don't like the fact that ex-prisoners can become wealthy after their release.

aka_kerrly

12,416 posts

209 months

Tuesday 21st October 2014
quotequote all
He'd be better off if he had been a banker!

A lot of people appear more outraged by the thought that he can start a new job earning £X amount when really the focus should be on has he been suitably rehabilitated to be in a position to get any job.

As other have said , football fans or specifically opposition fans will relish the opportunity to abuse him, I'd have thought the years of abuse he'd get on the pitch will be worse than his original sentence! Plus all those thinking he ought to be knee deep in clunge and should have never needed to be in the position of raping someone , how many women find a convicted rapist all that appealing???


hidetheelephants

23,765 posts

192 months

Tuesday 21st October 2014
quotequote all
aka_kerrly said:
Plus all those thinking he ought to be knee deep in clunge and should have never needed to be in the position of raping someone , how many women find a convicted rapist all that appealing???
His girlfriend seems keen enough.

London424

12,826 posts

174 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all

Antony Moxey

8,016 posts

218 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
ascayman said:
Hackney said:
ascayman said:
The other thing here is that this guy has shown absolutely no remorse whatsoever.
If you were accused of something you didn't do would you show remorse?
I understand what you are saying, but he's been more than accused he's been convicted, according to the law he's a raspist and one that it would appear shows no remourse to his victims, that's a pretty scary combination.

Intrigued to see what happens during this appeal.
Regardless of the conviction why would you show remorse if you believe yourself to be innocent. Are you saying that on being found guilty Evans should have said something along the lines of 'right then, I previously thought I was innocent but now I've been found guilty I'll have to change my stance and now say I did it - sorry every one'?

ascayman

12,732 posts

215 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
Antony Moxey said:
ascayman said:
Hackney said:
ascayman said:
The other thing here is that this guy has shown absolutely no remorse whatsoever.
If you were accused of something you didn't do would you show remorse?
I understand what you are saying, but he's been more than accused he's been convicted, according to the law he's a raspist and one that it would appear shows no remourse to his victims, that's a pretty scary combination.

Intrigued to see what happens during this appeal.
Regardless of the conviction why would you show remorse if you believe yourself to be innocent. Are you saying that on being found guilty Evans should have said something along the lines of 'right then, I previously thought I was innocent but now I've been found guilty I'll have to change my stance and now say I did it - sorry every one'?
I think regardless of whether he thinks he is innocent or not he should show some sort of remorse to the actual victim in this case who has had to move and change her name not once but twice because of this incident, and lets not forget she neither reported the rape nor testified against him.

Re the martin Samuel article, so some of the 'facts' as reported on the website set up by his supporters aren't actually true then??

irocfan

40,152 posts

189 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
ascayman said:
Antony Moxey said:
ascayman said:
Hackney said:
ascayman said:
The other thing here is that this guy has shown absolutely no remorse whatsoever.
If you were accused of something you didn't do would you show remorse?
I understand what you are saying, but he's been more than accused he's been convicted, according to the law he's a raspist and one that it would appear shows no remourse to his victims, that's a pretty scary combination.

Intrigued to see what happens during this appeal.
Regardless of the conviction why would you show remorse if you believe yourself to be innocent. Are you saying that on being found guilty Evans should have said something along the lines of 'right then, I previously thought I was innocent but now I've been found guilty I'll have to change my stance and now say I did it - sorry every one'?
I think regardless of whether he thinks he is innocent or not he should show some sort of remorse to the actual victim in this case who has had to move and change her name not once but twice because of this incident, and lets not forget she neither reported the rape nor testified against him.

Re the martin Samuel article, so some of the 'facts' as reported on the website set up by his supporters aren't actually true then??
but that's the problem - he may feel sorry for the woman in question, he may feel nothing but scorn for this woman... if he apologises though it will be seen as a tacit admission that he's admitting guilt

Antony Moxey

8,016 posts

218 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
ascayman said:
Antony Moxey said:
ascayman said:
Hackney said:
ascayman said:
The other thing here is that this guy has shown absolutely no remorse whatsoever.
If you were accused of something you didn't do would you show remorse?
I understand what you are saying, but he's been more than accused he's been convicted, according to the law he's a raspist and one that it would appear shows no remourse to his victims, that's a pretty scary combination.

Intrigued to see what happens during this appeal.
Regardless of the conviction why would you show remorse if you believe yourself to be innocent. Are you saying that on being found guilty Evans should have said something along the lines of 'right then, I previously thought I was innocent but now I've been found guilty I'll have to change my stance and now say I did it - sorry every one'?
I think regardless of whether he thinks he is innocent or not he should show some sort of remorse to the actual victim in this case who has had to move and change her name not once but twice because of this incident, and lets not forget she neither reported the rape nor testified against him.

Re the martin Samuel article, so some of the 'facts' as reported on the website set up by his supporters aren't actually true then??
Don't be daft. If you truly believed that you were innocent of any wrongdoing then why would you apologise? As far as Evans and his belief in whether he did anything wrong or not, the verdict changes nothing, and in that respect it's not his fault if the victim has had to move twice. If he thinks he's innocent he might well argue that perhaps she ought to have thought of the consequences before allowing it to get as far as it did.

If I genuinely thought I'd done no wrong I wouldn't be showing remorse or apologising, all that is is basically an admission of guilt.

hornetrider

Original Poster:

63,161 posts

204 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
ascayman said:
Re the martin Samuel article, so some of the 'facts' as reported on the website set up by his supporters aren't actually true then??
As far as I can tell all Martin Samuel does is take exception to, and draw meaning from, the phrase "I've got a bird". A text that was sent by McDonald.

McClure

2,173 posts

145 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
hornetrider said:
As far as I can tell all Martin Samuel does is take exception to, and draw meaning from, the phrase "I've got a bird". A text that was sent by McDonald.
So you don't see any difference between "got" a bird and "with" a bird?

hornetrider

Original Poster:

63,161 posts

204 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
Nope. Not in the context of being a bit pissed up and sending quick text speak to a mate.

Edit: The case file even seems unclear on the exact wording:

During the taxi journey McDonald sent a text message to the applicant telling him that he had "got a bird" or words to that effect.

https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-che...

Not that it matters.

Edited by hornetrider on Wednesday 22 October 15:47

BlackST

9,079 posts

164 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all

hornetrider

Original Poster:

63,161 posts

204 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
Eloquent for a footballist isn't he? wink

photosnob

1,339 posts

117 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
I've read through the evidence including the court transcripts. And I honestly do not think that they should have found him guilty beyond reasonable doubt. However the bar for appeal is very high and I don't think he is going to succeed.

Personally I think two things - 1) If someone is drunk that is there choice, they put themselves there and it's not rape at all. If I "give away" my money when drunk it's not theft!!! 2) I don't think he raped the girl. I think he was a bit predatory, but I do not believe she didn't know what was going on at all.

Either way the man should be allowed to get on with his career now. If he can't work what is he meant to do? He isn't a teacher or a lawyer or in a position that requires a DBS check so people should stop playing the broken record. The man was a dick for cheating on his partner - and he spent 2 1/2 years in prison for doing so.

I hope the "victim" is enjoying her pink mini which she bragged about on twitter.

TTmonkey

20,911 posts

246 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
photosnob said:
I've read through the evidence including the court transcripts. And I honestly do not think that they should have found him guilty beyond reasonable doubt. However the bar for appeal is very high and I don't think he is going to succeed.

Personally I think two things - 1) If someone is drunk that is there choice, they put themselves there and it's not rape at all. If I "give away" my money when drunk it's not theft!!! 2) I don't think he raped the girl. I think he was a bit predatory, but I do not believe she didn't know what was going on at all.

Either way the man should be allowed to get on with his career now. If he can't work what is he meant to do? He isn't a teacher or a lawyer or in a position that requires a DBS check so people should stop playing the broken record. The man was a dick for cheating on his partner - and he spent 2 1/2 years in prison for doing so.

I hope the "victim" is enjoying her pink mini which she bragged about on twitter.
I find it very hard to believe that you hold such views on what happened.

The evidence is that this girl, whilst very drunk, went into this hotel with one man with whom, either consentually or not, she had sex with. However, whilst she was in the hotel, another man turns up, and has sex with her, then sneaks out the back door. None of these facts are in dispute.

Yet you seem to think that whatever happened, it's all excusable simply because she was so drunk. That's really, really not right.

You also seem to have a massively low moral threshold. I assume from your statement that you'd happily take money off someone who's so drunk that they give away their money because they are drunk. I don't think that most honest, law abiding, desent people would do any such thing as accepting some drunks money.

Perhaps you need to reevaluate your own moral code?

BlackST

9,079 posts

164 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
hornetrider said:
Eloquent for a footballist isn't he? wink
Only the best education at Rhyl High School laugh

zeb

3,193 posts

217 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
TTmonkey said:
photosnob said:
I've read through the evidence including the court transcripts. And I honestly do not think that they should have found him guilty beyond reasonable doubt. However the bar for appeal is very high and I don't think he is going to succeed.

Personally I think two things - 1) If someone is drunk that is there choice, they put themselves there and it's not rape at all. If I "give away" my money when drunk it's not theft!!! 2) I don't think he raped the girl. I think he was a bit predatory, but I do not believe she didn't know what was going on at all.

Either way the man should be allowed to get on with his career now. If he can't work what is he meant to do? He isn't a teacher or a lawyer or in a position that requires a DBS check so people should stop playing the broken record. The man was a dick for cheating on his partner - and he spent 2 1/2 years in prison for doing so.

I hope the "victim" is enjoying her pink mini which she bragged about on twitter.
I find it very hard to believe that you hold such views on what happened.

The evidence is that this girl, whilst very drunk, went into this hotel with one man with whom, either consentually or not, she had sex with. However, whilst she was in the hotel, another man turns up, and has sex with her, then sneaks out the back door. None of these facts are in dispute.

Yet you seem to think that whatever happened, it's all excusable simply because she was so drunk. That's really, really not right.

You also seem to have a massively low moral threshold. I assume from your statement that you'd happily take money off someone who's so drunk that they give away their money because they are drunk. I don't think that most honest, law abiding, desent people would do any such thing as accepting some drunks money.

Perhaps you need to reevaluate your own moral code?
Agreed TT

not forgetting the not unsubstantial point that his mate videod him doing it on his phone which the police recovered.......

And amazingly people still think he's been hard done to