Discussion
TTmonkey said:
I find it very hard to believe that you hold such views on what happened.
The evidence is that this girl, whilst very drunk, went into this hotel with one man with whom, either consentually or not, she had sex with. However, whilst she was in the hotel, another man turns up, and has sex with her, then sneaks out the back door. None of these facts are in dispute.
Yet you seem to think that whatever happened, it's all excusable simply because she was so drunk. That's really, really not right.
You also seem to have a massively low moral threshold. I assume from your statement that you'd happily take money off someone who's so drunk that they give away their money because they are drunk. I don't think that most honest, law abiding, desent people would do any such thing as accepting some drunks money.
Perhaps you need to reevaluate your own moral code?
Actually that isn't the evidence is it. The "evidence" is that she was able to walk in high heels with no problems and even get down and pick up a Pizza box without stumbling. When I've been "very drunk" as in enough for a black out I wouldn't have been able to do that. Sneaking out the back door would be normal for someone who is high profile and cheating. The evidence is that this girl, whilst very drunk, went into this hotel with one man with whom, either consentually or not, she had sex with. However, whilst she was in the hotel, another man turns up, and has sex with her, then sneaks out the back door. None of these facts are in dispute.
Yet you seem to think that whatever happened, it's all excusable simply because she was so drunk. That's really, really not right.
You also seem to have a massively low moral threshold. I assume from your statement that you'd happily take money off someone who's so drunk that they give away their money because they are drunk. I don't think that most honest, law abiding, desent people would do any such thing as accepting some drunks money.
Perhaps you need to reevaluate your own moral code?
I have not said rape is excusable if drunk. However I do have to wonder where you have gotten that from.
My moral threshold is just that, I can't change what it is. For the record I've put female's in cabs paid and sent them home before when I thought they were so far gone on a date they could not protect themselves. And I wasn't saying I would accept money from drunks - I was saying that if you were that drunk the Police was not say you were the victim of a theft/robbery because you could not consent to giving it away. The same goes for a bar/casino, it's not fraud if you are drunk and waste your money. Personal responsibility means you either accept that or you don't get completely wasted.
Furthermore - I don't agree with rape, I don't believe in abusing anyone weaker than you in anyway. Be that because you are part of a group, because you are picking on kids, people with disabilities or simply someone weaker than yourself.
A top judge recently said rape would continually be a problem until young women stopped drinking huge volumes of alcohol. That is the words of someone who knows what they are talking about (and a female) rather than just me.
The question is - if I was drunk and I went home with an ugly women and we had sex, if I was too far gone to consent has she committed sexual assault? (women can't be convicted of rape). Without getting disgusting, when I've been drunk before and gone to sleep I've had an ex tell me the next day she had done certain acts to get me to engage with her. Was I the victim of a sexual assault? Should I be going to the Police? Would they be hunting for her and interviewing her for historic sexual assault?
photosnob said:
The "evidence" is that she was able to walk in high heels with no problems and even get down and pick up a Pizza box without stumbling. When I've been "very drunk" as in enough for a black out I wouldn't have been able to do that. Sneaking out the back door would be normal for someone who is high profile and cheating.
We're talking about capacity / capability to consent in this context. You don't need to be paralytic through alcohol to reach that threshold. Intoxication is also 'dynamic' i.e. you can become more intoxicated, quite quickly, as I'm sure we all know. CPS site said:
In R v Bree 2007 EWCA 256, the Court of Appeal explored the issue of capacity and consent, stating that, if, through drink, or for any other reason, a complainant had temporarily lost her capacity to choose whether to have sexual intercourse, she was not consenting, and subject to the defendant's state of mind, if intercourse took place, that would be rape. However, where a complainant had voluntarily consumed substantial quantities of alcohol, but nevertheless remained capable of choosing whether to have intercourse, and agreed to do so, that would not be rape. Further, they identified that capacity to consent may evaporate well before a complainant becomes unconscious. Whether this is so or not, however, depends on the facts of the case.
Here's the second facet with both tests, the 'reasonable belief': CPS site said:
Deciding whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps (A) has taken to ascertain whether (B) consents (subsection (2) of sections 1-4). It is likely that this will include a defendant's attributes, such as disability or extreme youth, but not if (s)he has any particular fetishes.
The Act abolished the Morgan defence of a genuine though unreasonably mistaken belief as to the consent of the complainant. The defendant (A) has the responsibility to ensure that (B) consents to the sexual activity at the time in question. It will be important for the police to ask the offender in interview what steps (s)he took to satisfy him or herself that the complainant consented in order to show his or her state of mind at the time.
The test of reasonable belief is a subjective test with an objective element. The best way of dealing with this issue is to ask two questions:
Did the defendant believe the complainant consented? This relates to his or her personal capacity to evaluate consent (the subjective element of the test).
If so, did the defendant reasonably believe it? It will be for the jury to decide if his or her belief was reasonable (the objective element).
The Act abolished the Morgan defence of a genuine though unreasonably mistaken belief as to the consent of the complainant. The defendant (A) has the responsibility to ensure that (B) consents to the sexual activity at the time in question. It will be important for the police to ask the offender in interview what steps (s)he took to satisfy him or herself that the complainant consented in order to show his or her state of mind at the time.
The test of reasonable belief is a subjective test with an objective element. The best way of dealing with this issue is to ask two questions:
Did the defendant believe the complainant consented? This relates to his or her personal capacity to evaluate consent (the subjective element of the test).
If so, did the defendant reasonably believe it? It will be for the jury to decide if his or her belief was reasonable (the objective element).
photosnob said:
I have not said rape is excusable if drunk. However I do have to wonder where you have gotten that from.
It's not an unreasonable interpretation of this statement: photosnob said:
Personally I think two things - 1) If someone is drunk that is there choice, they put themselves there and it's not rape at all.
photosnob said:
The question is - if I was drunk and I went home with an ugly women and we had sex, if I was too far gone to consent has she committed sexual assault?
The issue of consent isn't gender specific. La Liga said:
photosnob said:
Personally I think two things - 1) If someone is drunk that is there choice, they put themselves there and it's not rape at all.
photosnob said:
The question is - if I was drunk and I went home with an ugly women and we had sex, if I was too far gone to consent has she committed sexual assault?
The issue of consent isn't gender specific. photosnob said:
A top judge recently said rape would continually be a problem until young women stopped drinking huge volumes of alcohol. That is the words of someone who knows what they are talking about (and a female) rather than just me.
The judge is right. rapists will continue to rape women that are too pissed to know what's happening. The judge is not legitimising the rape of drunken women, she is saying that rapists will rape. There is no defence of rapists in saying that drunken women get raped by rapists. There is no division of blame for the rape of a drunken women, it's rape by a rapist.Do you not understand the basics of what's acceptable and what's not?
I see today that Evans own family members are saying they believe he is a rapist. Perhaps not his girlfriends mum and dad who believe they can buy their own daughters happiness.
I fail to see why this man has been released. He has certainly not been rehabilitated for the crime he has been convicted of.
TTmonkey said:
The judge is right. rapists will continue to rape women that are too pissed to know what's happening. The judge is not legitimising the rape of drunken women, she is saying that rapists will rape. There is no defence of rapists in saying that drunken women get raped by rapists. There is no division of blame for the rape of a drunken women, it's rape by a rapist.
Completely right, and a point that most people seem to miss.If I leave my car unlocked it may be unwise, but I do not deserve to have it stolen. The thief hasn't done anything less serious by stealing an unlocked car. He is guilty of the same crime as a thief that steals a locked car. But of course most car thieves want their crime to be as easy as possible, so will target unlocked cars.
So should somebody who lets say works in a factory never be able to work again even after he or she has served their time?
I am not defending what he has done but it's not like he was well known before all this & I suspect most on here who have replied wouldn't have even heard of him until now. He wasn't earning massive wages from the club he was playing for & wasn't publicly well known so should he be told that he can never do his job again, I am not so sure.... He has served his time where as I suspect most "top" fooball players would have got away with it & it probably wouldn't have even reached court.
I am not defending what he has done but it's not like he was well known before all this & I suspect most on here who have replied wouldn't have even heard of him until now. He wasn't earning massive wages from the club he was playing for & wasn't publicly well known so should he be told that he can never do his job again, I am not so sure.... He has served his time where as I suspect most "top" fooball players would have got away with it & it probably wouldn't have even reached court.
TTmonkey said:
I fail to see why this man has been released. He has certainly not been rehabilitated for the crime he has been convicted of.
He's been released because he's done the required amount of time (notice I didn't say "completed his sentence")Does rehabilitation come into it at all? Has the guy who killed 3 coppers been rehabilitated? Has any criminal?
Will he rape again?
Is he at risk of raping again?
No. Especially if he didn't do it this time.
boobles said:
He wasn't earning massive wages from the club he was playing for & wasn't publicly well known
Old data (2009/10 season) but average salary in League 1 then was £73k. Factor in 4 years of football-madness wage rises since, that Evans would hvae been in the top tier in that Division and he was a Welsh international, I'd say he'd be well into a sizeble six figure salary if he'd not been involved in this.
What's he going to do to make that now, given that he's devoted all his life to football? Having seen him struggle to read an autocue on the video piece to camera this week I'm guessing that ITN won't be beating a path to his door.
La Liga said:
he issue of consent isn't gender specific.
La Liga I like you, you are in my opinion one of the best posters on here. You say what you think without resorting to insulting people or being obnoxious, and on some things we share common views. However as a Police Man can you give me one example of a women ever being prosecuted for taking advantage sexually of a drunken otherwise healthy man?
Without jumping the gun - the reason why it doesn't happen is being culturally men are not taught to think they have been raped/abused when they get drunk and sleep or kiss an ugly women or someone they wish they had not.
I can honestly say I'm never the most interesting or best looking bloke by a long shot. But I have had women trying to get me drunk to get me into bed. I found it amusing. I've never considered complaining to the police about it!!!
What's more - if we are truly honest with each other, the Police would do nothing if I were to complain!
Now here is the important thing - I don't think getting drunk means women should be raped, men should be beaten up or anyone should be abused or taken advantage off. However I don't think a drunk women sleeping with a man, means he is automatically a rapist. Furthermore - and more importantly, how many offences can you think where the CPS would even DREAM about prosecuting when the victim said he/she couldn't remember about them, and they were normal everyday occurrences? I'm talking about someone claiming they were mugged whilst the other party claimed the money was given. Obviously ABH/GBH is different as mentally sound people do not consent to getting their head kicked in.
If I was excusing rape I was wrong, and that is not what I believe. However nor do I believe that anyone male or female should ever be convicted under the circumstances we are talking about. A man can nearly never prove he is innocent, unless he records the act which could be an offence in itself.
irocfan said:
Good luck with EVER seeing a woman prosecuted for 'taking advantage' of a drunk man.
It's happened, it's just not that common. It a) probably doesn't occur that much b) is exceptionally under-reported. The fact a woman can't rape a man also cuts off a whole area of potential offences. photosnob said:
La Liga I like you, you are in my opinion one of the best posters on here. You say what you think without resorting to insulting people or being obnoxious, and on some things we share common views.
I appreciate you saying so. I try always to reply in a manner I'd wish to be replied to. We do indeed share some views that 'go against the grain' when it comes to drugs and the prison system. photosnob said:
However as a Police Man can you give me one example of a women ever being prosecuted for taking advantage sexually of a drunken otherwise healthy man?
I can't find any on Google, but I think it'd be a stretch of all the sexual offence convictions over the years to think it doesn't occur. photosnob said:
Without jumping the gun - the reason why it doesn't happen is being culturally men are not taught to think they have been raped/abused when they get drunk and sleep or kiss an ugly women or someone they wish they had not.
Yes, there are significant imbalances in this area which influence the outcome. photosnob said:
What's more - if we are truly honest with each other, the Police would do nothing if I were to complain!
I imagine the perception would be that's the case, but not the reality. photosnob said:
Without jumping the gun - the reason why it doesn't happen is being culturally men are not taught to think they have been raped/abused when they get drunk and sleep or kiss an ugly women or someone they wish they had not.
That's very true. I think this also extends to underage sex. There's understandable anger when a male teacher has sex with a female pupil, but just general tittering and an attitude of "jammy git" when a female teacher does it to a male pupil.PurpleTurtle said:
boobles said:
He wasn't earning massive wages from the club he was playing for & wasn't publicly well known
Old data (2009/10 season) but average salary in League 1 then was £73k. Factor in 4 years of football-madness wage rises since, that Evans would hvae been in the top tier in that Division and he was a Welsh international, I'd say he'd be well into a sizeble six figure salary if he'd not been involved in this.
What's he going to do to make that now, given that he's devoted all his life to football? Having seen him struggle to read an autocue on the video piece to camera this week I'm guessing that ITN won't be beating a path to his door.
Like I said, I am not defending what the fool did but had he been earning 73k per week I predict that the case wouldn't have even made it to court! Money talks & all that....
boobles said:
So should somebody who lets say works in a factory never be able to work again even after he or she has served their time?
I am not defending what he has done but it's not like he was well known before all this & I suspect most on here who have replied wouldn't have even heard of him until now. He wasn't earning massive wages from the club he was playing for & wasn't publicly well known so should he be told that he can never do his job again, I am not so sure.... He has served his time where as I suspect most "top" fooball players would have got away with it & it probably wouldn't have even reached court.
How easy do you think it is to get any kind of job with a criminal record, especially for rape? But because he's a footballer then he'll avoid this problem....I am not defending what he has done but it's not like he was well known before all this & I suspect most on here who have replied wouldn't have even heard of him until now. He wasn't earning massive wages from the club he was playing for & wasn't publicly well known so should he be told that he can never do his job again, I am not so sure.... He has served his time where as I suspect most "top" fooball players would have got away with it & it probably wouldn't have even reached court.
I have no problem with him going back to work by the way....
TTmonkey said:
How easy do you think it is to get any kind of job with a criminal record, especially for rape? But because he's a footballer then he'll avoid this problem....
I have no problem with him going back to work by the way....
Honestly - as someone who had a fairly large criminal record (I still do but it's now spent), it's not that difficult. Most people lie and don't admit it, and there are plenty of jobs that won't care. Delivery drivers, labourers even tradesmen and most sales jobs. What you won't and never will do is have the same options open to you with a criminal record. No matter how much you change and develop as a person certain things are off limits. I have no problem with him going back to work by the way....
Being honest - I started working for myself. It was easier than either having to explain it or worry about getting caught out. I still feel uneasy about saying no if asked on an app form about any convictions, whilst they are spent if you google my name you will read stuff which indicates otherwise. This is the crappy local rag, I wasn't that special. Most will say thats fair and I get what I deserve - personally I think that if someone isn't allowed to move on and better themselves then it's a shame for humanity. But I don't lose a lot of sleep over it.
Here is the irony though - as a self employed person, I was able to walk around peoples homes unattended. I was asked to quote/tender for both schools and an nhs trust. I would not be allowed to volunteer to help with a DoE expedition, but I can freely walk around a schools grounds with a chainsaw, whilst kids are playing.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
photosnob said:
Without jumping the gun - the reason why it doesn't happen is being culturally men are not taught to think they have been raped/abused when they get drunk and sleep or kiss an ugly women or someone they wish they had not.
That's very true. I think this also extends to underage sex. There's understandable anger when a male teacher has sex with a female pupil, but just general tittering and an attitude of "jammy git" when a female teacher does it to a male pupil.photosnob said:
Honestly - as someone who had a fairly large criminal record (I still do but it's now spent), it's not that difficult. Most people lie and don't admit it, and there are plenty of jobs that won't care. Delivery drivers, labourers even tradesmen and most sales jobs. What you won't and never will do is have the same options open to you with a criminal record. No matter how much you change and develop as a person certain things are off limits.
Being honest - I started working for myself. It was easier than either having to explain it or worry about getting caught out. I still feel uneasy about saying no if asked on an app form about any convictions, whilst they are spent if you google my name you will read stuff which indicates otherwise. This is the crappy local rag, I wasn't that special. Most will say thats fair and I get what I deserve - personally I think that if someone isn't allowed to move on and better themselves then it's a shame for humanity. But I don't lose a lot of sleep over it.
Here is the irony though - as a self employed person, I was able to walk around peoples homes unattended. I was asked to quote/tender for both schools and an nhs trust. I would not be allowed to volunteer to help with a DoE expedition, but I can freely walk around a schools grounds with a chainsaw, whilst kids are playing.
Ah self employed. Yes, that's a good way of avoiding awkward questions. I hadn't considered that.Being honest - I started working for myself. It was easier than either having to explain it or worry about getting caught out. I still feel uneasy about saying no if asked on an app form about any convictions, whilst they are spent if you google my name you will read stuff which indicates otherwise. This is the crappy local rag, I wasn't that special. Most will say thats fair and I get what I deserve - personally I think that if someone isn't allowed to move on and better themselves then it's a shame for humanity. But I don't lose a lot of sleep over it.
Here is the irony though - as a self employed person, I was able to walk around peoples homes unattended. I was asked to quote/tender for both schools and an nhs trust. I would not be allowed to volunteer to help with a DoE expedition, but I can freely walk around a schools grounds with a chainsaw, whilst kids are playing.
Now I understand better why I'm always being skimmed by self employed types. They're probably all bloody crims!,,
If I was convicted of anything I would lose my job (IT-Banking). Even a bad credit check and I would lose it. Or plenty of other reasons.
That doesn't mean I couldn't get another job, just not this one. It's up to the company (or in this case club) and shareholders etc. to decide if they employ criminals or not.
Given the public relations side of football being essential to the industry, (just as being a rapist probably stops you being a teacher/policeman/ or anyone that represents a company and has contact with the public) I am extremely surprised a football club would want a criminal, indeed such a high price one.
It isn't a right for anyone to be able to have any job, you have to earn it, work for it and not f
k up.
If I was club chairman, I wouldn't want this guy at my club. I wouldn't want him working in my shop, in my school or in my home. Plenty of other jobs out there though.
That doesn't mean I couldn't get another job, just not this one. It's up to the company (or in this case club) and shareholders etc. to decide if they employ criminals or not.
Given the public relations side of football being essential to the industry, (just as being a rapist probably stops you being a teacher/policeman/ or anyone that represents a company and has contact with the public) I am extremely surprised a football club would want a criminal, indeed such a high price one.
It isn't a right for anyone to be able to have any job, you have to earn it, work for it and not f
k up.If I was club chairman, I wouldn't want this guy at my club. I wouldn't want him working in my shop, in my school or in my home. Plenty of other jobs out there though.
Ched Evans: Convicted rapist to train with Sheffield United
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29980279
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29980279
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