Early apexing - need a slap!
Discussion
benjj said:
Yes to Colin Elstrop. He races this Granny so we had a lot to talk about.
That's kind of the point re rally cars vs racing cars - it sounds like I'm just going to have to re-learn how I do things. Am very much enjoying learning a new skill, it's been years since I've done something outside my comfort zone.
Don't think I'll ever me a Hakkinen but it's fun trying
Go and do some track days and testing at Croft and get some seat time in with Colin. Mr and Mrs Elstrop know what they are doing.. Tower bend at Croft is one I struggle with regards early turn in. Get that one right and you will be pretty much cured.That's kind of the point re rally cars vs racing cars - it sounds like I'm just going to have to re-learn how I do things. Am very much enjoying learning a new skill, it's been years since I've done something outside my comfort zone.
Don't think I'll ever me a Hakkinen but it's fun trying
Still very much learning like you.
N.
Greensleeves said:
Hi Ben,
I know exactly where you are.
I did the Rally Yorkshire in an Escort and Oulton Park in the MR2 a week later and I do exactly what you are describing.
The way I taught myself how to not throw it in before the apex and steer with the loud pedal which works in an Escort in the forest but not an MR2 on a track, was by driving relatively slowly on the road. Pick a road with loads of obstacles like bends or roundabouts and go drive down it. At each obstacle you have one go at steering. Pick your turn in point and apex and apply some steering and keep the same lock throughout the corner. If you have to apply any correctional steering through the obstacle you have failed. I'm not saying this is the way to drive on track (although I do think it helps). It's a way of getting your brain to think of a different turn points and late apexes. You're allowed to wind lock off on the exit but not apply more lock without getting a fail. I tend to stick to my side of the road as well using the white line as the track limit. There's usually enough width to allow you to pick and choose lines but if not you can use all the road if it's safe and legal to do so. You can practice this at standard speeds and the cars around you and even your passengers will not know you're doing it apart from you cursing under your breath when you get a fail.
Give it a go and let me know how you get on.
Love this idea..Especially the sideways looks I am going to get from the misses I know exactly where you are.
I did the Rally Yorkshire in an Escort and Oulton Park in the MR2 a week later and I do exactly what you are describing.
The way I taught myself how to not throw it in before the apex and steer with the loud pedal which works in an Escort in the forest but not an MR2 on a track, was by driving relatively slowly on the road. Pick a road with loads of obstacles like bends or roundabouts and go drive down it. At each obstacle you have one go at steering. Pick your turn in point and apex and apply some steering and keep the same lock throughout the corner. If you have to apply any correctional steering through the obstacle you have failed. I'm not saying this is the way to drive on track (although I do think it helps). It's a way of getting your brain to think of a different turn points and late apexes. You're allowed to wind lock off on the exit but not apply more lock without getting a fail. I tend to stick to my side of the road as well using the white line as the track limit. There's usually enough width to allow you to pick and choose lines but if not you can use all the road if it's safe and legal to do so. You can practice this at standard speeds and the cars around you and even your passengers will not know you're doing it apart from you cursing under your breath when you get a fail.
Give it a go and let me know how you get on.
Not my best driving (was my first season to be fair!).
Corner approach speed far too high, early turn in, realise the apex is not happening and then super-lucky!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgAfhw3HNkQ
Corner approach speed far too high, early turn in, realise the apex is not happening and then super-lucky!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgAfhw3HNkQ
Hard to explain without a pen and paper or being in the car - but you always want to be going as straight as you can - basically, the larger the radius the faster you can go. Being fast means being on the throttle as much as you can and when you're not on the throttle, you want to be really hard on the brakes. Neither of these things are great when you have a lot if steering lock on (think of your grip circle etc).
So, hitting the apex isn't something you can do in total isolation- you need to know where the car needs to be on exit so that you can get on the throttle earlier. This is a problem if you have too much steering lock on, as it limits the amount of throttle you can apply before losing traction.
Also, some people are just not as fast as others.
So, hitting the apex isn't something you can do in total isolation- you need to know where the car needs to be on exit so that you can get on the throttle earlier. This is a problem if you have too much steering lock on, as it limits the amount of throttle you can apply before losing traction.
Also, some people are just not as fast as others.
Edited by johnfm on Sunday 19th October 00:43
I am not sure vision is a problem certainly wasn't for me but the courage and confidence to do it certainly are, two perfect examples of what I mean: Redgate at Donny and the lower straighter line into Paddock at Brands. In both cases the little voice is saying I am going to end up straight on into the gravel on the outside of the corner.
I read this thread with interest, and quite frankly, the quickest way through a corner, is to take the 'bike line, which as I'm sure you will agree is a very early turn!! I have coached two Championship winners this season, both setting fastest laps, lap records etc, and the one regular comment made about those drivers is they don't even look as though they are trying, they look as though they are on rails!!! Think about it .....
ginettajoe said:
I read this thread with interest, and quite frankly, the quickest way through a corner, is to take the 'bike line, which as I'm sure you will agree is a very early turn!! I have coached two Championship winners this season, both setting fastest laps, lap records etc, and the one regular comment made about those drivers is they don't even look as though they are trying, they look as though they are on rails!!! Think about it .....
might be quick through the corner but won't be quick down the following straightslipstream 1985 said:
ginettajoe said:
I read this thread with interest, and quite frankly, the quickest way through a corner, is to take the 'bike line, which as I'm sure you will agree is a very early turn!! I have coached two Championship winners this season, both setting fastest laps, lap records etc, and the one regular comment made about those drivers is they don't even look as though they are trying, they look as though they are on rails!!! Think about it .....
might be quick through the corner but won't be quick down the following straightBertBert said:
Not my best driving (was my first season to be fair!).
Corner approach speed far too high, early turn in, realise the apex is not happening and then super-lucky!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgAfhw3HNkQ
..... your turning point was exactly where it should be, and the main cause of missing the apex was leaping off the brake pedal way too early!!Corner approach speed far too high, early turn in, realise the apex is not happening and then super-lucky!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgAfhw3HNkQ
ginettajoe said:
slipstream 1985 said:
ginettajoe said:
I read this thread with interest, and quite frankly, the quickest way through a corner, is to take the 'bike line, which as I'm sure you will agree is a very early turn!! I have coached two Championship winners this season, both setting fastest laps, lap records etc, and the one regular comment made about those drivers is they don't even look as though they are trying, they look as though they are on rails!!! Think about it .....
might be quick through the corner but won't be quick down the following straightslipstream 1985 said:
ginettajoe said:
slipstream 1985 said:
ginettajoe said:
I read this thread with interest, and quite frankly, the quickest way through a corner, is to take the 'bike line, which as I'm sure you will agree is a very early turn!! I have coached two Championship winners this season, both setting fastest laps, lap records etc, and the one regular comment made about those drivers is they don't even look as though they are trying, they look as though they are on rails!!! Think about it .....
might be quick through the corner but won't be quick down the following straightginettajoe said:
I read this thread with interest, and quite frankly, the quickest way through a corner, is to take the 'bike line, which as I'm sure you will agree is a very early turn!! I have coached two Championship winners this season, both setting fastest laps, lap records etc, and the one regular comment made about those drivers is they don't even look as though they are trying, they look as though they are on rails!!! Think about it .....
In the interests of learning something that sounds like it could be to the benefit of us all, please can you expand on this as I don't understand.
If you can't stop yourself turning in too early, then try trail braking from slightly later than you would normally and using the brakes to get the front end turned in - let the rear slightly loose and get on the throttle early and ta da you have the same exit as if you had turned in late
JeremyH5 said:
In the interests of learning something that sounds like it could be to the benefit of us all, please can you expand on this as I don't understand.
...... I have worked in this industry for numerous years, and developed methods of coaching, which aren't to the same techniques that are written down in many of "The Performance Driving" books read by many! I made a statement about "early turn-in" and tried to dismiss the theory of why drivers should turn-in later! What I am not prepared to do, is go into great detail on a public forum, explaining how to do something, for all my competitor instructors to learn from!! When all said and done, it is how I earn my money, and I'm not a free source of information!! If I can help anyone develop an understanding of the physics of moving a piece of metal (sometimes plastic) around a piece of tarmac, then I am available to spend a day with them! I hope you don't take this the wrong way, as that is not as it is intended!spad78 said:
If you can't stop yourself turning in too early, then try trail braking from slightly later than you would normally and using the brakes to get the front end turned in - let the rear slightly loose and get on the throttle early and ta da you have the same exit as if you had turned in late
........ exactly! That is what I inferred about the above video showing entry into Lodge Corner at Oulton Park, ....... he leapt off the brakes way too early!! There are other important things to create what you have just suggested though, not just "trailbraking", although that is by far the most important!!
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