Ludgate Circus cyclist tipper lorry
Discussion
Dammit said:
Diderot said:
Simultaneously to educate cyclists about the dangers, and explore technological solutions for HGVs. But until I'm in charge of transport policy,the answer is really simple: don't filter up the inside of a lorry or bus.
I'll ask again - how does a cyclist defend against a vehicle coming up alongside and then turning in on them?That's not a filtering issue.
Similarly if the truck driver sees the cyclist there, they can try to make allowance too
It takes 2 to tango
Edited by saaby93 on Sunday 19th October 10:13
swisstoni said:
Dammit - trying to conflate Civil Rights with the road safety of cyclists is not doing your case any favours and is actually disrespectful to the people who fought for those causes.
I disagree.See: "Loads of my friends are black, but [racist rant]"
And: "My mates cycle, but [they bring it on themselves, practically dive under cars, red lights/helmets/pavements/blah".
It's prejudice, plain and simple, and as ugly as it always is.
I am a cyclist and a car driver, I also lived in central London for years (owning and driving a car everyday).
I had reason to drive in Central London about a dozen times during the past 6 months and found the experience totally exhausting, constantly looking around for cyclist undertaking, filtering or jumping red lights.
20 years ago the only cyclists in London (in the main) where professional couriers (who looked after themselves) or die hard commuters (again very capable and risk averse).
Today they are many more casual cyclists in London and the balance of responsibility for their safety appears to have shifted from the cyclist to the motor vehicle driver (probably not a bad thing).
Unfortunately (IMHO) no amount of bike rider education is going to stop cyclist getting killed on London roads, the only options are further eduction for drivers, further demands for technology on trucks or ultimately the banning of trucks during the day.
We as a society have asked and encouraged commuters to take to their bikes in London (and rightly so), we therefore should do what ever it takes to make it safe(r) for them.
I hope the rider makes a full recovery and the truck driver is not haunted by the accident.
I had reason to drive in Central London about a dozen times during the past 6 months and found the experience totally exhausting, constantly looking around for cyclist undertaking, filtering or jumping red lights.
20 years ago the only cyclists in London (in the main) where professional couriers (who looked after themselves) or die hard commuters (again very capable and risk averse).
Today they are many more casual cyclists in London and the balance of responsibility for their safety appears to have shifted from the cyclist to the motor vehicle driver (probably not a bad thing).
Unfortunately (IMHO) no amount of bike rider education is going to stop cyclist getting killed on London roads, the only options are further eduction for drivers, further demands for technology on trucks or ultimately the banning of trucks during the day.
We as a society have asked and encouraged commuters to take to their bikes in London (and rightly so), we therefore should do what ever it takes to make it safe(r) for them.
I hope the rider makes a full recovery and the truck driver is not haunted by the accident.
Dammit said:
swisstoni said:
Dammit - trying to conflate Civil Rights with the road safety of cyclists is not doing your case any favours and is actually disrespectful to the people who fought for those causes.
I disagree.See: "Loads of my friends are black, but [racist rant]"
And: "My mates cycle, but [they bring it on themselves, practically dive under cars, red lights/helmets/pavements/blah".
It's prejudice, plain and simple, and as ugly as it always is.
I sometimes cycle to and from work in and across London and I also drive and use a motorcycle. My cycling is normally done out of rush hours luckily but last week we finished early, around 6pm so I cycled the 5 miles back home.
Forget car and trucks, the people that worried me the most were other cyclists. Loads appeared to be going for some sort of record and would almost knock me flying, and I'm not slow but will cycle according to the situation around me. A lot of these guys/girls seemed oblivious plus a lot of very wobbly riders who seemed very unsure of themselves.
Worse was the shared walkway between Battersea bridge and Wandsworth bridge. A guy and a girl both going it hammer and tongs (Cycling that is
) ringing bells and shouting, scattering pedestrians like nine pins and causing over cyclists to swerve. The guy almost took me out in his desperation to keep up his average speed. Normally dressed, in his 50s, absolutely sodden in sweat and eyes bulging.
They went off in different directions. Just saying that as at first I thought they must know each other.
Driving in London these days looks like what being in Mumbai or some Vietnamese city must be like with the amount of scooters and bicycles all over the place.
Forget car and trucks, the people that worried me the most were other cyclists. Loads appeared to be going for some sort of record and would almost knock me flying, and I'm not slow but will cycle according to the situation around me. A lot of these guys/girls seemed oblivious plus a lot of very wobbly riders who seemed very unsure of themselves.
Worse was the shared walkway between Battersea bridge and Wandsworth bridge. A guy and a girl both going it hammer and tongs (Cycling that is
) ringing bells and shouting, scattering pedestrians like nine pins and causing over cyclists to swerve. The guy almost took me out in his desperation to keep up his average speed. Normally dressed, in his 50s, absolutely sodden in sweat and eyes bulging.They went off in different directions. Just saying that as at first I thought they must know each other.
Driving in London these days looks like what being in Mumbai or some Vietnamese city must be like with the amount of scooters and bicycles all over the place.
Edited by croyde on Sunday 19th October 10:45
Dammit said:
+ All current cycling infra puts cyclists up the left hand side of said vehicles, which needs to change.
But all of that aside, if the lorry driver looked where they were going, this wouldn't be a problem.
You are talking absolute rubbish and clearly have no understanding of the problem. But all of that aside, if the lorry driver looked where they were going, this wouldn't be a problem.
You also seem to be saying that if someone drives or rides badly, the moment he or she becomes a victim of their bad behaviour they are immediately absolved simply because they're a victim.
Of course victims are often to blame, or have often contributed to their own demise. Every time I drive I see people doing things that I wouldn't, so if they come a cropper then of course they have some blame.
Herman Toothrot said:
Problem has been created by planners creating half arsed cycling lanes that are not really anything but some spilled paint on the roads and pavements encouraging cyclists to dodge between them all.
There should either be nothing or real true segregated cycle lanes where it is impossible for other vehicles to enter.
+1 Compare our so called cycle lanes in London to proper equivalents in Copenhagen and the like.There should either be nothing or real true segregated cycle lanes where it is impossible for other vehicles to enter.
If we were to do it properly, it would require major restructuring and cost ££.
In the meantime we have some blue paint.
vonhosen said:
Dammit said:
Vonhosen -that's absolute rubbish, also - what about Eilidh Cairns, run down by a lorry driver who refused to wear the glasses he needed to correct his vision?
Was it her fault that the lorry driver wouldn't wear his glasses? No, not at all.
It's absolutely baffling why people insist that the victims bear some blame for being the victim.
We're back to 1950's attitudes here, and it's frankly disgusting: "That black/gay/foreign guy should have known never to have gone in there, it's his own fault he got such a beating" etc etc.
Firstly I said without talking about individual cases & secondly I used the word invariably. What I said therefore doesn't cover all cases, it covers the core of cases.Was it her fault that the lorry driver wouldn't wear his glasses? No, not at all.
It's absolutely baffling why people insist that the victims bear some blame for being the victim.
We're back to 1950's attitudes here, and it's frankly disgusting: "That black/gay/foreign guy should have known never to have gone in there, it's his own fault he got such a beating" etc etc.
Day in day out cyclists can be seen putting themselves into positions they shouldn't & day in day out drivers get lazy in the checks or aren't proactive in their checks.
It isn't that in 100% of cases there is blame on both parties, but in the vast majority of cases it will exist. That won't necessarily be 50/50 either, but there is enough of a mistake by both parties that just one doing the right thing could have covered for the other.
If both parties are sufficiently aware & proactive with their & other's safety, then the vast majority of these incidents could be avoided. Not all could be eliminated, but the vast majority could.
Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 19th October 10:05
Dammit said:
It's absolutely baffling why people insist that the victims bear some blame for being the victim.
We're back to 1950's attitudes here, and it's frankly disgusting: "That black/gay/foreign guy should have known never to have gone in there, it's his own fault he got such a beating" etc etc.
We're back to 1950's attitudes here, and it's frankly disgusting: "That black/gay/foreign guy should have known never to have gone in there, it's his own fault he got such a beating" etc etc.
Also, in this case the lorry driver will be a victim too. He will be traumatised, will likely have been suspended from his job pending enquiries, may lose pay and so on, and may or may not be able to return to (possibly) the only job he knows.
So we have two victims yet according to you neither bear any (or "some") blame.
Your second statement is complete nonsense, is rather disgusting and has nothing to do with the subject.
croyde said:
Driving in London these days looks like what being in Mumbai or some Vietnamese city must be like with the amount of scooters and bicycles all over the place.
What a ridiculous comment. The cities with most bicycles are places like Copenhagen and Amsterdam. Mumbai is choked with cars. Horrible.London traffic is very tame compared to the large cities of Vietnam, particularly Ho Chi Minh
There are a number of factors that would contribute to less of these road deaths I think. Better education for both drivers and cyclists. Use of defensive cycling, cyclists adopting a more central position in the lane to avoid being overtaken prior to vehicle turning left. Cyclists not undertaking. Creation and especially enforcement of laws / rules for cycling on the road. Also more dedicated off road cycle lanes perhaps.
There are a number of factors that would contribute to less of these road deaths I think. Better education for both drivers and cyclists. Use of defensive cycling, cyclists adopting a more central position in the lane to avoid being overtaken prior to vehicle turning left. Cyclists not undertaking. Creation and especially enforcement of laws / rules for cycling on the road. Also more dedicated off road cycle lanes perhaps.
It boils down to common sense with road smarts which applies to both side of this !!
Don't know who was to blame in this accident so unless someone has some more info im not going to comment on that
I wouldn't and don't filter on the left side of HGV/Buses it's just not worth it (I do filter in front of traffic lights
but only if I'm sure I can get to the front in time)
Also you have to your wits about you, then your riding planning ahead looking for any problems
So that means no headphones/callphones etc .. which i see a lot of
Have I been left hooked ? .. a few close shaves but nothing write home about
due to the fact that I'm reading the traffic looking for Muppets
I have to say that there's some roads that I just won't travel on with the cycle they are just too risky
There is right but that won't help you if your under the wheels of a HGV !!!
Don't know who was to blame in this accident so unless someone has some more info im not going to comment on that
I wouldn't and don't filter on the left side of HGV/Buses it's just not worth it (I do filter in front of traffic lights
but only if I'm sure I can get to the front in time)
Also you have to your wits about you, then your riding planning ahead looking for any problems
So that means no headphones/callphones etc .. which i see a lot of
Have I been left hooked ? .. a few close shaves but nothing write home about
due to the fact that I'm reading the traffic looking for Muppets
I have to say that there's some roads that I just won't travel on with the cycle they are just too risky
There is right but that won't help you if your under the wheels of a HGV !!!
heebeegeetee said:
Dammit said:
It's absolutely baffling why people insist that the victims bear some blame for being the victim.
We're back to 1950's attitudes here, and it's frankly disgusting: "That black/gay/foreign guy should have known never to have gone in there, it's his own fault he got such a beating" etc etc.
We're back to 1950's attitudes here, and it's frankly disgusting: "That black/gay/foreign guy should have known never to have gone in there, it's his own fault he got such a beating" etc etc.
Also, in this case the lorry driver will be a victim too. He will be traumatised, will likely have been suspended from his job pending enquiries, may lose pay and so on, and may or may not be able to return to (possibly) the only job he knows.
So we have two victims yet according to you neither bear any (or "some") blame.
Your second statement is complete nonsense, is rather disgusting and has nothing to do with the subject.[
+ 1, what a stupid comment by Dammit
thelawnet said:
What a ridiculous comment. The cities with most bicycles are places like Copenhagen and Amsterdam. Mumbai is choked with cars. Horrible.
Ridiculous? This wont be Hanoi on an average day then?Nice to see that there are people still prepared to be upset and offended on other peoples behalf.
Dammit said:
Diderot said:
Simultaneously to educate cyclists about the dangers, and explore technological solutions for HGVs. But until I'm in charge of transport policy,the answer is really simple: don't filter up the inside of a lorry or bus.
I'll ask again - how does a cyclist defend against a vehicle coming up alongside and then turning in on them?That's not a filtering issue.
it is not difficult
heebeegeetee said:
You are talking absolute rubbish and clearly have no understanding of the problem.
You also seem to be saying that if someone drives or rides badly, the moment he or she becomes a victim of their bad behaviour they are immediately absolved simply because they're a victim (1).
Of course victims are often to blame, or have often contributed to their own demise. Every time I drive I see people doing things that I wouldn't, so if they come a cropper then of course they have some blame (2).
(1) No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm trying to inject some sort of balance into the typical Pistonheads "it's their own fault, if they want to ride on the roads then they should expect to be killed or seriously injured" playground style pile-on.You also seem to be saying that if someone drives or rides badly, the moment he or she becomes a victim of their bad behaviour they are immediately absolved simply because they're a victim (1).
Of course victims are often to blame, or have often contributed to their own demise. Every time I drive I see people doing things that I wouldn't, so if they come a cropper then of course they have some blame (2).
(2) This is the sort of blanket statement, powered by nothing but anecdote that contributes to the general view that cyclists are the author of their own misfortune. Your statement could also be framed as "I often see people riding and driving blamelessly, so if they come a cropper then of course they have none of the blame.
People sometimes ride or drive badly. In one of those cases, other people die, in the other they don't.
Therefore it follows that the party who can cause death or serious injury has the most responsibility.
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