Clarkson on cameras - does he have a point?
Discussion
moffat said:
jdw1234 said:
I thought rather than for the safety of the workers it was because the hard shoulder is normally out of action or lanes reduced. 50mph is the speed at which crash levels are lowest so least likely to result in obstructions to flow.
That doesn't make much sense since there are many dual carriageways that are NSL and don't have hard shoulders. There are also many single carriageway NSL's without hard shoulders too.It was originally intended to protect workers.
The constant reduction is speed limits is becoming a total joke. A battle that the driver will not win.
Hol said:
I believe in Spain that they double the fine, if you get caught speeding when the workmen are actually present.
So roadworks with a limit = points
and Roadworks with roadworkers = double points.
Bonkers..
Maybe but it show's that there's a perceived difference in severity, it would be hard to argue that speeding with workforce=points and speeding - road workers = half points if you want the public to take it seriouslySo roadworks with a limit = points
and Roadworks with roadworkers = double points.
Bonkers..
Blakewater said:
She was such a slow and timid driver she would turn right from the inside lane of multi lane junctions, across the path of people going straight on from the overtaking lanes, because she was too scared of the "fast" drivers who used overtaking lanes to enter the right hand lane.
She sounds like she's a danger to herself and others. Although Spain was used as an example, they are not the only country where the penalties increase where a workforce is present - personally, I think that is fully justified.
Taking other examples:
In the case to the French autoroutes, and you will see signs with two speed limits which apply to differing weather conditions.
In Germany, limits on the the autobahn often drop as you approach a junction, and increase as you have passed.
Both of the above are common sense IMHO, as it encourages the driver to modulate speed according to prevaling conditions. In this country, we seem to have an arbitrary limit set in the late 60's than doesn't seem to encourage driving that's appropriate to the prevailing conditions - most modern cars could cruise quite safely at 80+ mph on a dry clear motorway, but you can't always say the 70 limit is safe for the same road in poor conditions.
Following a recent trip into Europe, I couldn't help feeling that British roads are actually overpoliced to the extent they do not run as smoothly as they could as a result.
Taking other examples:
In the case to the French autoroutes, and you will see signs with two speed limits which apply to differing weather conditions.
In Germany, limits on the the autobahn often drop as you approach a junction, and increase as you have passed.
Both of the above are common sense IMHO, as it encourages the driver to modulate speed according to prevaling conditions. In this country, we seem to have an arbitrary limit set in the late 60's than doesn't seem to encourage driving that's appropriate to the prevailing conditions - most modern cars could cruise quite safely at 80+ mph on a dry clear motorway, but you can't always say the 70 limit is safe for the same road in poor conditions.
Following a recent trip into Europe, I couldn't help feeling that British roads are actually overpoliced to the extent they do not run as smoothly as they could as a result.
Hol said:
I believe in Spain that they double the fine, if you get caught speeding when the workmen are actually present.
So roadworks with a limit = points
and Roadworks with roadworkers = double points.
Bonkers..
They do that in the US too. Fines are doubled for moving violations in a work zone. So roadworks with a limit = points
and Roadworks with roadworkers = double points.
Bonkers..
hoegaardenruls said:
Although Spain was used as an example, they are not the only country where the penalties increase where a workforce is present - personally, I think that is fully justified.
Taking other examples:
In the case to the French autoroutes, and you will see signs with two speed limits which apply to differing weather conditions.
In Germany, limits on the the autobahn often drop as you approach a junction, and increase as you have passed.
Sensible ideas, teach drivers to do this when they learn and it becomes second nature, the signs are just to reinforce already taught good behaviorTaking other examples:
In the case to the French autoroutes, and you will see signs with two speed limits which apply to differing weather conditions.
In Germany, limits on the the autobahn often drop as you approach a junction, and increase as you have passed.
Good example that refutes the 'safety' argument - A45 approaching Coventry. A proper accident blackspot, many deaths at a point where a relatively small but busy sideroad joined the dual carriageway at a particularly nasty spot. Cameras both sides for a few years, cut the accidents, fair play. Then, a couple of years ago, the road was completely remodelled to remove the hazard by installing a new roundabout. Speed cameras remained....council claimed they would continue to keep the road safe. Cobblers. Anyway, someone clearly disagreed as the Northbound one was torched...
And to echo the thought already made, I would 'pay per view' to see JC on a speed awareness course...
And to echo the thought already made, I would 'pay per view' to see JC on a speed awareness course...
a simple stat
speed camera on road = death reduction = hazard mitigation
Speed camera on road = death reduction = higher number of tickets = scam
Variable limits on motorways before busy junctions & work areas = sensible traffic flow
Arbitrary limits on high speed network for miles on end = scam
should be interesting if a pro motorist lobby compiled this stat for the whole country including motorways.
speed camera on road = death reduction = hazard mitigation
Speed camera on road = death reduction = higher number of tickets = scam
Variable limits on motorways before busy junctions & work areas = sensible traffic flow
Arbitrary limits on high speed network for miles on end = scam
should be interesting if a pro motorist lobby compiled this stat for the whole country including motorways.
M3DGE said:
Good example that refutes the 'safety' argument - A45 approaching Coventry. A proper accident blackspot, many deaths at a point where a relatively small but busy sideroad joined the dual carriageway at a particularly nasty spot. Cameras both sides for a few years, cut the accidents, fair play. Then, a couple of years ago, the road was completely remodelled to remove the hazard by installing a new roundabout. Speed cameras remained....council claimed they would continue to keep the road safe. Cobblers. Anyway, someone clearly disagreed as the Northbound one was torched...
And to echo the thought already made, I would 'pay per view' to see JC on a speed awareness course...
...And now its average speed cameras stuck at 40mph for the workers who don't seem to exist.And to echo the thought already made, I would 'pay per view' to see JC on a speed awareness course...
(p.s. which roundabout is the new one?)
hoegaardenruls said:
Although Spain was used as an example, they are not the only country where the penalties increase where a workforce is present - personally, I think that is fully justified.
Taking other examples:
In the case to the French autoroutes, and you will see signs with two speed limits which apply to differing weather conditions.
In Germany, limits on the the autobahn often drop as you approach a junction, and increase as you have passed.
Both of the above are common sense IMHO, as it encourages the driver to modulate speed according to prevaling conditions. In this country, we seem to have an arbitrary limit set in the late 60's than doesn't seem to encourage driving that's appropriate to the prevailing conditions - most modern cars could cruise quite safely at 80+ mph on a dry clear motorway, but you can't always say the 70 limit is safe for the same road in poor conditions.
Following a recent trip into Europe, I couldn't help feeling that British roads are actually overpoliced to the extent they do not run as smoothly as they could as a result.
The variable (weather-based) speed limits are a very good idea. When ever I'm driving in one of those areas I view it as a common sense measure.Taking other examples:
In the case to the French autoroutes, and you will see signs with two speed limits which apply to differing weather conditions.
In Germany, limits on the the autobahn often drop as you approach a junction, and increase as you have passed.
Both of the above are common sense IMHO, as it encourages the driver to modulate speed according to prevaling conditions. In this country, we seem to have an arbitrary limit set in the late 60's than doesn't seem to encourage driving that's appropriate to the prevailing conditions - most modern cars could cruise quite safely at 80+ mph on a dry clear motorway, but you can't always say the 70 limit is safe for the same road in poor conditions.
Following a recent trip into Europe, I couldn't help feeling that British roads are actually overpoliced to the extent they do not run as smoothly as they could as a result.
Whenever we put up mile after mile of gantries with a camera on every 3rd one it's seen as trying to catch people out rather than doing it for safety.
That's because we brought in variable speeds and cameras at the same time.
And because drivers in this country are fundamentally stupid. The Luton - M25 section of the M1 the other day was down to 60 but there were the usual idiots in the wrong lane; the even more idiotic "drive at 65 no matter what" who weave between lanes and you just know they'll be at 65 when the congestion eases.
So far so normal. Then, we passed the M25 and the heavens opened. The traffic head eased as so much had joined the M25 but the rain was torrential. And people kept to the same speed; people kept to the same small gap to the car in front.
We've reached a point where the majority of drivers are so down right stupid that the have to be told what to do all of the time. No exceptions.
The problem is the cult of cameras meant that only speeding offences can be captured. 65 through road works on a clear day or 70mph 10m off the car in front as torrential rain pours down. Which gets prosecuted and which is more dangerous?
There is a lot of common sense in this thread. The same cannot be said for speed limit setting in many cases, especially when the local authority gets involved (as opposed to the Highways Agency).
Many of the A-roads to the south and east of Winchester (A272 between Winchester and Petersfield) being a perfect example) now have a proliferation of un-necessary 50/40/30 limits. Every week there seems to be a new, or further reduced limit in place. I believe that most or all of these new limits are at the behest of the local government authority.
It is all about dumbing down the drivers and also making it so difficult to keep track of the actual limit (because it changes so frequently and with little apparent reason) that the majority of dumbed-down drivers just switch off and proceed at 40mph "to be on the safe side". It is also about getting limits low enough so that increased revenue can be assured for the scamera operators.
In Germany it is so different, as there appears to be a pact between authorities and drivers, along the lines of "give us the freedom to drive limit-free, except where it is necessary to have a limit, and I will obey those limits" Treat people like intelligent adults, and they might just behave that way too. Treat them like stupid children, and you get that too.
I am quite happy to observe any posted limit when I am in Germany, even though there is little to no chance of me ever being stopped or prosecuted for ignoring that limit (in my UK registered car). In return, I get the freedom of un-limited sections of autobahn.
That seems like a good deal to me. I wish we were offered such enlightened thinking
Many of the A-roads to the south and east of Winchester (A272 between Winchester and Petersfield) being a perfect example) now have a proliferation of un-necessary 50/40/30 limits. Every week there seems to be a new, or further reduced limit in place. I believe that most or all of these new limits are at the behest of the local government authority.
It is all about dumbing down the drivers and also making it so difficult to keep track of the actual limit (because it changes so frequently and with little apparent reason) that the majority of dumbed-down drivers just switch off and proceed at 40mph "to be on the safe side". It is also about getting limits low enough so that increased revenue can be assured for the scamera operators.
In Germany it is so different, as there appears to be a pact between authorities and drivers, along the lines of "give us the freedom to drive limit-free, except where it is necessary to have a limit, and I will obey those limits" Treat people like intelligent adults, and they might just behave that way too. Treat them like stupid children, and you get that too.
I am quite happy to observe any posted limit when I am in Germany, even though there is little to no chance of me ever being stopped or prosecuted for ignoring that limit (in my UK registered car). In return, I get the freedom of un-limited sections of autobahn.
That seems like a good deal to me. I wish we were offered such enlightened thinking
Ari said:
Do you really find it this difficult to regulate your speed on a motorway? 
Big sign, do speed it says or less - overtake slower cars, be overtaken by faster cars.
Apart from the need to alter your speed a bit occasionally it's not so different to the 70mph speed limit that has been in force for nearly 50 years is it?
Thanks for the tip Mum. Big sign, do speed it says or less - overtake slower cars, be overtaken by faster cars.
Apart from the need to alter your speed a bit occasionally it's not so different to the 70mph speed limit that has been in force for nearly 50 years is it?
Clarkson certainly has a point, he's dead right. Anyway, it's been shown many times, only about 4% of all accidents are attributable to excess speed for the conditions (that of course includes cars under the speed limit, but maybe on snow, ice or just slippery surface). So, accidents because of just exceeding the speed limit are statistically very small indeed.
405dogvan said:
p.s. there are rules on how speed limits should be set, anyone can challenge a speed limit - I know this because I've done it, successfully, in the past - you can do this whether you've been caught speeding or not and it's those rules we need to be getting a look at, improving etc.
Interested in this topic - could you perhaps provide a quick primer on how to challenge a new speed limit?Edited by 405dogvan on Monday 20th October 11:30
Or a link to a "how to" page?
Tony B2 said:
Treat people like intelligent adults, and they might just behave that way too. Treat them like stupid children, and you get that too.
...
That seems like a good deal to me. I wish we were offered such enlightened thinking
+1...
That seems like a good deal to me. I wish we were offered such enlightened thinking
In the UK, car safety is all about speed control, which is in
direct conflict with UK DOT statistics that excessive speed
is about tenth most frequent cause of car crashes.
In the UK, don't bother spending any effort driving well, merely
driving slowly enough will ensure no attention from the authorities.
Other countries have more sophisticated and successful ways
to encourage safe driving.
They recognise that boredom, inattention and "looked but did not see"
are all more important factors than mere speed.
Tony B2 said:
405dogvan said:
p.s. there are rules on how speed limits should be set, anyone can challenge a speed limit - I know this because I've done it, successfully, in the past - you can do this whether you've been caught speeding or not and it's those rules we need to be getting a look at, improving etc.
Interested in this topic - could you perhaps provide a quick primer on how to challenge a new speed limit?Or a link to a "how to" page?
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff