Towing help

Author
Discussion

Joe5y

Original Poster:

1,501 posts

182 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
Hi,

Having read the following link on Towing I am still none the wiser as to whether I can actually tow on a B licence or not.

On occasions I drive a Citreon Berlingo Enterprise 2.0HDi Van with a 6ft x 4ft trailer on the back for bikes, fences, grass and random stuff. Having not done my trailer test does this mean I cannot actually tow anything or am I restricted to a lesser weight limit? The trailer in question has no MAM or is not plated, it is a simple frame with boarding.

Thanks in advance.

R0G

4,984 posts

154 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
Joe5y said:
Hi,

Having read the following link on Towing I am still none the wiser as to whether I can actually tow on a B licence or not.

On occasions I drive a Citreon Berlingo Enterprise 2.0HDi Van with a 6ft x 4ft trailer on the back for bikes, fences, grass and random stuff. Having not done my trailer test does this mean I cannot actually tow anything or am I restricted to a lesser weight limit? The trailer in question has no MAM or is not plated, it is a simple frame with boarding.

Thanks in advance.
This your vehicle? = http://www.helpfindmea.co.uk/vans/specs/citroen-be...
Gross Train Weight 2905
Gross Vehicle Weight 1805
Max. Towing Weight - Braked 1100

If that is the vehicle then the weight plate on the trailer cannot be more than 1695 kg and any trailer including its load cannot be more than an actual weight of 1100 kg

R0G

4,984 posts

154 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
Missed that trailer has no weight plate so you need to find the tyre load ratings on each tyre and add them together to determine the MAM
http://www.blackcircles.com/general/load-rating

Joe5y

Original Poster:

1,501 posts

182 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
R0G said:
This your vehicle? = http://www.helpfindmea.co.uk/vans/specs/citroen-be...
Gross Train Weight 2905
Gross Vehicle Weight 1805
Max. Towing Weight - Braked 1100

If that is the vehicle then the weight plate on the trailer cannot be more than 1695 kg and any trailer including its load cannot be more than an actual weight of 1100 kg
No thats not it, mines Royal Blue . . .rofl

Yes, thats the one. So even though I haven't taken my trailer test and the trailer isn't plated, as long as I don't tow over 1100kg I'll be fine?

R0G

4,984 posts

154 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
Joe5y said:
No thats not it, mines Royal Blue . . .rofl

Yes, thats the one. So even though I haven't taken my trailer test and the trailer isn't plated, as long as I don't tow over 1100kg I'll be fine?
What is the total of all the tyre load ratings on the trailer?

Answer that and I will let you know where you stand legally

Joe5y

Original Poster:

1,501 posts

182 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
R0G said:
What is the total of all the tyre load ratings on the trailer?

Answer that and I will let you know where you stand legally
Overall I'd say at most 2500kg made up of the van weighing 1805kg and the trailer at 200kg and the load being 500kg.

If this is too much, what is the limit?

R0G

4,984 posts

154 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
I need the total of your tyre load ratings = http://www.blackcircles.com/general/load-rating
Please click the link, check your trailer tyres then reply with the total

Joe5y

Original Poster:

1,501 posts

182 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
R0G said:
I need the total of your tyre load ratings = http://www.blackcircles.com/general/load-rating
Please click the link, check your trailer tyres then reply with the total
84 all round so 500kg (or 2000kg if you times each corner by 4)

R0G

4,984 posts

154 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
Joe5y said:
84 all round so 500kg (or 2000kg if you times each corner by 4)
Trailer MAM is 2000 kg
Vehicle GVW is 1805 kg
Total MAM is 3805 kg so 305 too much for B towing
If you tow that trailer you will be illegal and void any insurance

Joe5y

Original Poster:

1,501 posts

182 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
R0G said:
Trailer MAM is 2000 kg
Vehicle GVW is 1805 kg
Total MAM is 3805 kg so 305 too much for B towing
If you tow that trailer you will be illegal and void any insurance
So is it only based on the tyres that are on the trailer (and van)?! Seems odd as there is no way the trailer could hold 1000kg let alone 2000kg. Put it this way, I put just under a ton in it once and it bent the axle!

bobthepsycho

203 posts

234 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
R0G said:
What is the total of all the tyre load ratings on the trailer?

Answer that and I will let you know where you stand legally
R0G, can I ask if this is an unwritten rule, or is it actual law?

Only I've got an unplated trailer to carry motorcycles, which I've put different (higher load rating) tyres on. So by putting more capable tyres on, the trailer combination could become illegal?

R0G

4,984 posts

154 months

Tuesday 21st October 2014
quotequote all
bobthepsycho said:
R0G, can I ask if this is an unwritten rule, or is it actual law?

Only I've got an unplated trailer to carry motorcycles, which I've put different (higher load rating) tyres on. So by putting more capable tyres on, the trailer combination could become illegal?
All I know is that the authorities will use the total of the tyre load ratings where no plate is found

It must be written somewhere because that info came from an impeccable source

I will try and find it later if its on the internet

R0G

4,984 posts

154 months

Tuesday 21st October 2014
quotequote all
Joe5y said:
So is it only based on the tyres that are on the trailer (and van)?! Seems odd as there is no way the trailer could hold 1000kg let alone 2000kg. Put it this way, I put just under a ton in it once and it bent the axle!
It is odd but I suppose they have to go on something

If it was unsafe such as overloading the axle then different laws come into play

It is also possible to have a trailer plated at say 2500 with tyres on it which total 2000 so in that case the 2000 would over-ride the plated limit

R0G

4,984 posts

154 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
Technical.Officers@vosa.gsi.gov.uk
16:28 (9 minutes ago)
to me, Enquiries

Roger

Responding to your mail of 21 October to DVSA Enquiries on the above subject.

I can confirm the sum of the tyre capacities with an upper limit of 3500 kg is used as a rule of thumb by DVSA enforcement staff for establishing the GVW of an O2 overrun braked trailer which does not have a manufacturer's plate ( They are not legally required to have one regardless of age)

DVSA do not publish this anywhere. I doubt if it is on the internet.

Steve Whitehart | Heavy Vehicle Technical Officer
Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency | Ellipse, Padley Road, Swansea SA1 8AN
Phone: 01792 454306, Fax: 01792 454387

Crafty_

13,248 posts

199 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
Surely the best way to find out is take the trailer to a local weighbridge and find out what it weighs ?

Its entirely possible someone put higher rated tyres on than the trailer needs, thus relying on the tyre rating may be inaccurate?

Joe5y

Original Poster:

1,501 posts

182 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
Crafty_ said:
Surely the best way to find out is take the trailer to a local weighbridge and find out what it weighs ?

Its entirely possible someone put higher rated tyres on than the trailer needs, thus relying on the tyre rating may be inaccurate?
I made the trailer and the wheels were from an 70's or 80's micra (or similar) the tyres were purchased as they were the cheapest 12inch one I could find. The trailer, although 6x4 and made of a metal frame with wooden panels is relatively light. 150-250kg unladen.

powerstroke

10,283 posts

159 months

Friday 24th October 2014
quotequote all
R0G said:
Technical.Officers@vosa.gsi.gov.uk
16:28 (9 minutes ago)
to me, Enquiries

Roger

Responding to your mail of 21 October to DVSA Enquiries on the above subject.

I can confirm the sum of the tyre capacities with an upper limit of 3500 kg is used as a rule of thumb by DVSA enforcement staff for establishing the GVW of an O2 overrun braked trailer which does not have a manufacturer's plate ( They are not legally required to have one regardless of age)

DVSA do not publish this anywhere. I doubt if it is on the internet.

Steve Whitehart | Heavy Vehicle Technical Officer
Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency | Ellipse, Padley Road, Swansea SA1 8AN
Phone: 01792 454306, Fax: 01792 454387
What an absolute pile of crap!!! How could tyres dictate a trailers capacity the whole law and its enforcement is rubbish! If there isn't a manufactures plate it should be tested weighed and fited with one at a vosa test station or scrapped, its also crazy trailers arnt subject to MOT's and registered..

itz_baseline

820 posts

220 months

Friday 24th October 2014
quotequote all
R0G said:
Technical.Officers@vosa.gsi.gov.uk
16:28 (9 minutes ago)
to me, Enquiries

Roger

Responding to your mail of 21 October to DVSA Enquiries on the above subject.

I can confirm the sum of the tyre capacities with an upper limit of 3500 kg is used as a rule of thumb by DVSA enforcement staff for establishing the GVW of an O2 overrun braked trailer which does not have a manufacturer's plate ( They are not legally required to have one regardless of age)

DVSA do not publish this anywhere. I doubt if it is on the internet.

If they generally don't want this to be public knowledge, and this guy is doing you a favour, why would you post his name and phone number on the internet whereby he might get into trouble somehow from work? That's just not cricket.

McWigglebum4th

32,414 posts

203 months

Friday 24th October 2014
quotequote all
Joe5y said:
I made the trailer and the wheels were from an 70's or 80's micra (or similar) the tyres were purchased as they were the cheapest 12inch one I could find. The trailer, although 6x4 and made of a metal frame with wooden panels is relatively light. 150-250kg unladen.
In which case it is unbraked

ergo max capacity is 750kg

R0G

4,984 posts

154 months

Friday 24th October 2014
quotequote all
itz_baseline said:
If they generally don't want this to be public knowledge, and this guy is doing you a favour, why would you post his name and phone number on the internet whereby he might get into trouble somehow from work? That's just not cricket.
This guy is not my impeccable contact but simply the person who replied to my email at DVSA

My guy is EX VOSA so could not have sent that email

This chap does not say they do not want it out there but simply says it has not been put out there

Not everything is on the internet