Tories the future (part1)

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Discussion

mrpurple

Original Poster:

2,624 posts

187 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
If the cry vote UKIP get labour is true - what is the future of the Tories post the GE? I'll start:

Boris for leader. Dave gets a job in Brussels.

Mrr T

12,153 posts

264 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
mrpurple said:
If the cry vote UKIP get labour is true - what is the future of the Tories post the GE? I'll start:

Boris for leader. Dave gets a job in Brussels.
Disagree on both counts.

CMD can earn far more on the lecture/directors train.

Boris has only a small following in the Tory party. More likely Osbourne but the race will be vary open. I would like Owen Patterson.

This does assuming I am right and vote UKIP gets Labour.

powerstroke

10,283 posts

159 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
We have 5 years of labour running the economy into the ground
While the Tory's re invent themselves. Rinse and repeat as sadly people arnt brave enough to vote for change!!!

crankedup

25,764 posts

242 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
powerstroke said:
We have 5 years of labour running the economy into the ground
While the Tory's re invent themselves. Rinse and repeat as sadly people arnt brave enough to vote for change!!!
Tories re-invent themselves - AGAIN! The Tory image can never be changed whilst the Front Bench consists of those that are perceived by so many of the public as the 'upper echelons of Society'.

gpo746

3,397 posts

129 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
An internal revolt a debate about whether to go cuddly or hard as nails
Labour screw things up
Patronising of working classes to regain momentum
Ed Milliband to have a honeymoon period then rumours about him to surface
Lib Dems to fall apart

5 years later a slightly more right wing tory party to win a lanslide

toppstuff

13,698 posts

246 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
crankedup said:
Tories re-invent themselves - AGAIN! The Tory image can never be changed whilst the Front Bench consists of those that are perceived by so many of the public as the 'upper echelons of Society'.
I am personally getting very tired of this constant trope which IMO is largely the creation of the media.

Someone like Ed Milliband, who has lived a very unusual life as a gilded academic inside educational institutions his whole life while being from a middle class marxist background, is just as out of touch as Cameron - maybe even more so.

The greatest con the Labour party has managed over the past two decades is to get people to believe that they represent the "ordinary voter", when in reality they are just as disconnected and privileged as the Tories. From the private banks and secret billionaires that form the circle of friends for people like Mandelson and Blair, to the House of Lords with Prescott, to over-priviliged academic policy wonks like the Millibands : they have not a clue about the lives of the average Brit.


AJS-

15,366 posts

235 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
Hard to see much of a future for them as things stand. This party hasn't won a general election for 22 years and isn't looking especially likely to win the next one.

As I predicted in 2010 they have inflicted further damage on themselves by forming their unhappy alliance with the discredited Lib Dems and made only modest progress towards balancing the budget, let alone cutting the actual size of the state.

They make a series of impotent noises about Europe and immigration but fail to deliver anything.

Their biggest cultural/social "achievement" seems to be gay marriage. Hardly lkkely to win back the Tory faithful but probably not enough to convince many Lib Dems that they're no longer the nasty party.

Their modest success (or rather avoidance of abject failure) in keeping the union together is tempered by the fact that they don't have a clue what they should now do with it, or indeed with England, where people do actually still vote for them.

And it isn't even clear, as they begin setting out their stall for the next election, that any of these things are even important to the Tories. They don't have any ideology, any principles, any vision or anything at all really besides being slightly less incompetent than Labour on economic management.

Despite a strong record on the economy and a fairly sympathetic hearing on the BBC Cameron looks on course to lose quite heavily against a Labour leader who is a bit of a laughing stock.

I know ideology is not fashionable at the moment and doesn't in itself win elections. What it does do though is gel a party together around some guiding principles so that people actually know what they're getting beyond the dream sheet of a typical manifesto and the schmoozing of a media friendly leader. The Conservative Party badly needs this.

What the actual ideology should be is not all that clear. It is a very broad grouping but at the simplest level the split between the Thatcherite radicals and the old corporatist/paternalist Torues is the most obvious split with no obvious remedy.

powerstroke

10,283 posts

159 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
crankedup said:
powerstroke said:
We have 5 years of labour running the economy into the ground
While the Tory's re invent themselves. Rinse and repeat as sadly people arnt brave enough to vote for change!!!
Tories re-invent themselves - AGAIN! The Tory image can never be changed whilst the Front Bench consists of those that are perceived by so many of the public as the 'upper echelons of Society'.
Yes and we now have Ukip ! Must worry the Tory's having a centre right party that doesn't seem to know the rules trampling there lawn!!

Esseesse

8,969 posts

207 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
Disagree on both counts.

CMD can earn far more on the lecture/directors train.

Boris has only a small following in the Tory party. More likely Osbourne but the race will be vary open. I would like Owen Patterson.

This does assuming I am right and vote UKIP gets Labour.
I wonder if you polled grass roots members on who they'd like as leader and added Mr Farage in there how well he'd do....

Fittster

20,120 posts

212 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
AJS- said:
Despite a strong record on the economy
What's the strong record? Osborne has failed to hit any of the targets he's set himself on the deficit but refuse to admit it's a stupid goal in the first place.

dandarez

13,246 posts

282 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
Tories the future?

With CMD that's simple.

There isn't one!

toppstuff

13,698 posts

246 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
dandarez said:
Tories the future?

With CMD that's simple.

There isn't one!
I have never really understood all the vitriol and spittle hurled at CMD. Did he sleep with your mum or something?

Esseesse

8,969 posts

207 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
toppstuff said:
I have never really understood all the vitriol and spittle hurled at CMD. Did he sleep with your mum or something?
Blair clone, not a conservative etc etc

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
AJS- said:
I know ideology is not fashionable at the moment and doesn't in itself win elections. What it does do though is gel a party together around some guiding principles so that people actually know what they're getting beyond the dream sheet of a typical manifesto and the schmoozing of a media friendly leader. The Conservative Party badly needs this.
The tory party is like a religion: it is particular to everyone who believes in it.

What one voter sees as the ideology of the tory party would be an anathema to another. On top of that, the tory party is a hotch potch of different aims and beliefs. Always has been in my adult life and I see nothing to suggest this will change.

The main problem with the tory party is the nutty right, espousing policies that would render it unelectable. It is very much in the same position as the nutty left of the lab our party.

Like it or not, a good TV presence is an essential. The reason Miliband is such an electoral liability is because he looks characterless. On the other hand, we have Johnson who has a reputation of saying what he means despite his somewhat chequered history in this regard. Appearance might not be everything, but I don't know what is second. Why do you think we keep seeing pictures of Miliband eating that burger in the right-wing press?

The nutty right of the tories has highjacked Thatcher despite their part in her downfall. Then they did the same but more so for Major. It seemed to me that they would rather be consigned to the opposition for nearly a generation rather than support Major. I felt obliged to assist them in that desire in 1997.

The tory party wants to ignore history. They need to attract voters first and foremost and they can do this even with their plethora of millionaires. What the poor want is sensible and fair government. That's what Blair promised and people bought it. They don't want sacrifices for the sake of ancient dogma.

What would help the tories would be a new leader. Someone with a bit of sense. One who will address what the public at large will accept without argument, as well as agreement, if only grudgingly.

What the voters want is some reason to vote.


AJS-

15,366 posts

235 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
Fittster said:
What's the strong record? Osborne has failed to hit any of the targets he's set himself on the deficit but refuse to admit it's a stupid goal in the first place.
"Strong" record was probably overstating it a bit, but credit where it's due growth has returned and they have at least turned on the lights at the orgy of public waste that Labour held.

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
mrpurple said:
Tories the future (part1)
part 1? Seems a little optimistic. This thread could outlast the Party! wink

Esseesse

8,969 posts

207 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
The nutty right of the tories has highjacked Thatcher despite their part in her downfall.
Mrs T was initially pro-EU (pro market). Towards the end of her time she began to realise that she couldn't tame the EU and became anti-EU. Although I don't think the EU is a very clearly left/right issue, it was those that most would say were on the 'left' who ensured her downfall. Thatcher became the 'nutty right' as you describe it, Major was left(er).

Mrr T

12,153 posts

264 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
Esseesse said:
Mrr T said:
Disagree on both counts.

CMD can earn far more on the lecture/directors train.

Boris has only a small following in the Tory party. More likely Osbourne but the race will be vary open. I would like Owen Patterson.

This does assuming I am right and vote UKIP gets Labour.
I wonder if you polled grass roots members on who they'd like as leader and added Mr Farage in there how well he'd do....
The party got CMD because of votes from the party members. The MP's might have voted for David Davis if they had the final voice. So no why would they vote for Farage?

MrBrightSi

2,912 posts

169 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
They need to attract voters first and foremost and they can do this even with their plethora of millionaires. What the poor want is sensible and fair government. That's what Blair promised and people bought it. They don't want sacrifices for the sake of ancient dogma.

Someone with a bit of sense. One who will address what the public at large will accept without argument, as well as agreement, if only grudgingly.

What the voters want is some reason to vote.
Nail - Head.

Spot on Derek, wish i could put it so well and understandably.

The general public can be easily swayed by the press, even with the most air headed bullst they pedal now.

The general public however can most of the time spot people or promises that are disingenuous and i'd say it's starting to show with the level of disconnect in politics.

I'd like to think that even though people still vote, it's because they feel things might get better with the right people. However i'd say that more people, myself included, loathe our politicians and feel voting is only playing with a stacked deck.

Someone put in another thread that we get the politicians we deserve. I couldn't agree more, we have become apathetic with no guts for long run solutions any more, so in return we get people who look out only for their self interest and have the same stamina for long drawn out solutions as the electorate.

crankedup

25,764 posts

242 months

Wednesday 22nd October 2014
quotequote all
toppstuff said:
crankedup said:
Tories re-invent themselves - AGAIN! The Tory image can never be changed whilst the Front Bench consists of those that are perceived by so many of the public as the 'upper echelons of Society'.
I am personally getting very tired of this constant trope which IMO is largely the creation of the media.

Someone like Ed Milliband, who has lived a very unusual life as a gilded academic inside educational institutions his whole life while being from a middle class marxist background, is just as out of touch as Cameron - maybe even more so.

The greatest con the Labour party has managed over the past two decades is to get people to believe that they represent the "ordinary voter", when in reality they are just as disconnected and privileged as the Tories. From the private banks and secret billionaires that form the circle of friends for people like Mandelson and Blair, to the House of Lords with Prescott, to over-priviliged academic policy wonks like the Millibands : they have not a clue about the lives of the average Brit.
I did say perceived!

Agreed milliband seems out of touch, I disagree that the Labour Party are still deceiving large swathes of the public regards representation of the 'ordinary workers'. They are still making attempts at this of course, but reality is that many hardcore Labour voters are deserting the Party and moving across to UKIP. Perhaps it is the case that the established two major parties have both had their day.
Either way I find it infuriating that front bench politicians, in many cases, have almost no concept of ordinary people. Labour do seem to do a better job at this particular pretence, but the day is dawning.