Bikers - Undertaking, do we have any sympathy ?

[phib]

Now I will point out that I am an ex biker both road and off road and my on road biking was ended by a car driver hitting me.

Over the last couple of days I have seen two bikers hit on the M25, One who walked away and one who didn’t, M25 shut tonight. The one who got up was ranting at the car driver who in my opinion legally had done nothing wrong.

Both had undertaken and got hit by a car changing lane, now I see this every day and see bikers get annoyed when someone doesn’t see them and cuts across the front of them.

I am afraid I am now in the position that I have no sympathy for them, unless I am mistaken legally they are not allowed to undertake which most of them seem to do all the time. Some at speed some within the legal limits.

But I am afraid I am in the no sympathy camp.

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Phib

[Mastodon2]

Are you confusing "undertaking" with filtering?

[Codswallop]

Filtering or lane splitting is perfectly legal (see p.28 point 88 of the Highway Code).

Granted, the definition does not stipulate when and where one can lane split, just that care should be taken.

It's a bit harsh to say you have no sympathy for the riders who you saw had come a cropper unless you know and saw the full circumstances behind the accident. People make mistakes and stupid decisions regardless of whether they are walking, cycling...

Regardless, all road users should remember: Mirror, signal, manoeuvre. There would be far fewer accidents if people remember to carry out the correct observation before changing lanes.

[Baryonyx]

Mastodon2 said:

Are you confusing "undertaking" with filtering?

Are you confusing undertaking with passing on the nearside?

Undertaking is what funeral directors do.

[ORD]

Of the dangerous undertaking manoeuvres that I see, about 70% are by bikers. Given the relative rarity of motorbikes out of town, that means it is quite prevalent behaviour.

[Centurion07]

phib said:

..unless I am mistaken legally they are not allowed to undertake...

I believe you are mistaken, yes.

As for no sympathy? Even if we say no, they shouldn't have been there, surely the far greater issue here is the moron changing lanes without doing the proper checks to ensure that they're not going to hit something when they move?

I'd put any accident like that at least 80/20 as the car's fault, so sympathy? Yes. If riding like a total tool? Not so much.

[phib]

I may be confusing filtering with undertaking, the two I saw were traveling at c. 50mph when normal traffic doing say 15mph to 20 mph.

Car in front of me ( where the biker walked away) indicating to move from outside lane to middle lane, probably didnt look well enough but wasnt stricktly doing anything wrong (I dont think ?) and the bike "filtering" couldnt stop so straight into side of car.

Phib

[Tribal Chestnut]

I too have no sympathy for those that have died or been seriously injured in accidents that they could have avoided or could have been avoided by another party being a little more considerate and careful.

Likewise I have no sympathy for soliders that die abroad, any police, etc, that are harmed in the course of their 'job', kids that are abused, etc, etc.

Obviously with this attitude I am a complete and utter and deserve to fall down my own stairs tonight, seriously injuring myself and leaving my ten year old to care for me over the next 40/50/whatever years.

Edit: wker!

[Codswallop]

phib said:

I may be confusing filtering with undertaking, the two I saw were traveling at c. 50mph when normal traffic doing say 15mph to 20 mph.

Car in front of me ( where the biker walked away) indicating to move from outside lane to middle lane, probably didnt look well enough but wasnt stricktly doing anything wrong (I dont think ?) and the bike "filtering" couldnt stop so straight into side of car.

Phib

If the rider was genuinely filtering with such a speed differential, then they were asking for trouble. Three points to consider however:

1)the bike will have looked like it was going faster than it was due to perspective etc
2)car driver was an idiot for manoeuvring without adequate use of mirrors or signal
3)bike rider was an idiot for filtering too fast

[Riknos]

phib said:

I may be confusing filtering with undertaking, the two I saw were traveling at c. 50mph when normal traffic doing say 15mph to 20 mph.

Car in front of me ( where the biker walked away) indicating to move from outside lane to middle lane, probably didnt look well enough but wasnt stricktly doing anything wrong (I dont think ?) and the bike "filtering" couldnt stop so straight into side of car.

Phib

If you're changing lanes at 15/20 mph and don't look behind you, then you're a tt and deserve to have your license removed. It doesn't matter if the biker was doing 50 or 25 you're still going to hit them if you don't look, and you wont hit them if you do!

I see on a DAILY basis in town people change lanes without looking and almost hit CARS, BIG, MASSIVE, cars - never mind bikes. On several occasions in the last year I've had to swerve out the way of other cars trying to crash into my lane... I don't think you can blame a biker here, they're just more at risk due to filtering / no crash protection...

[Tribal Chestnut]

Codswallop said:

If the rider was genuinely filtering with such a speed differential, then they were asking for trouble. Three points to consider however:

1)the bike will have looked like it was going faster than it was due to perspective etc
2)car driver was an idiot for manoeuvring without adequate use of mirrors or signal
3)bike rider was an idiot for filtering too fast

'Guidelines' as I remember for filtering is not in excess of 20mph more than other traffic to a Max of 40mph, so, simplistically speaking, in the instance described earlier, allowing for innacuracy and bias on the part of our 'witness', they probably weren't going too fast.

[Pit Pony]

Ignoring whether it's legal to undertake, or filter.

As I keep saying to my kids in a sarcastic voice "Oh yes I'd rather be dead than wrong"

Given that we all know that drivers make mistakes, why would you put yourself in their blind spot?

I'd suggest filtering should be avoided unless the other vehicles are stationary, and only then at a walking pace.

But yes I have sympathy.

[Mr2Mike]

phib said:

I may be confusing filtering with undertaking, the two I saw were traveling at c. 50mph when normal traffic doing say 15mph to 20 mph.

That is a bit too fast to filter safely, as the unfortunate person has now discovered. The usual rule of thumb is to only filter when traffic is moving at less than 20mph, and keep the speed difference to less than 20mph.

Filtering itself is legal and is not "undertaking". It is a drivers responsibility to ensure that it is safe to shuffle into the lane moving 0.1mph faster than their current one before they make the manoeuvre, and down to the biker to ensure they don't get clobbered when drivers inevitably don't bother doing this. Filtering at high speeds is going to end badly sooner or later.

[phib]

Codswallop said:

If the rider was genuinely filtering with such a speed differential, then they were asking for trouble. Three points to consider however:

1)the bike will have looked like it was going faster than it was due to perspective etc
2)car driver was an idiot for manoeuvring without adequate use of mirrors or signal
3)bike rider was an idiot for filtering too fast

Very fair points, I agree you cant judge speeds in a side / rear view mirror so I may be well out on the speed and agreed car driver an idiot for manovering without checking properly.

Any which way a bike at what ever speed makes a real mess of 5 cars when it catapults over one in slow moving traffic, thought in the end the biker was going to be lynched !!

I guess my point was I thought the rule was always ride and be prepared to stop within your line of sight. Which obviously these guys couldnt do.

For a balanced view I have seen loads of cars overtake on the inside recently, it seems to be the season for it !!

Last point I didnt realise filtering wasnt illegal so you learn smomething new every day

Phib

[DrDoofenshmirtz]

It's certainly a risk, but it's just so easy to nip round vehicles on the 'wrong' side.
You're on a fast, narrow and highly manoeuvrable machine...everything that a car isn't. It's easy and very good fun...as long as things don't go wrong.
If a vehicle changed lanes and a bike was undertaking at speed...it really is the bikers fault if they hit the vehicle, because the other driver wouldn't have been expecting a bike to be there.

[phib]

Interesting the police basically said it was the biker that hit the car not the car that hit the bike (I assume as he was technically behind) therefore it was his fault and the others had to claim off his insurance.

They didnt say much else as they were pretty miffed with the masssive tail back at that point

Phib

[Mastodon2]

phib said:

Last point I didnt realise filtering wasnt illegal so you learn smomething new every day

Phib

How much "riding" of this bike did you do? Did you sit in traffic like you were in a car?

[Tribal Chestnut]

phib said:

Interesting the police basically said it was the biker that hit the car not the car that hit the bike (I assume as he was technically behind) therefore it was his fault and the others had to claim off his insurance.

They didnt say much else as they were pretty miffed with the masssive tail back at that point

Phib

I'd take what they say with a pinch of salt tbh. Once had a BIBster claim an accident was my fault after a vehicle plowed in to the back of the car following me (obviously he was wrong or I would be posting this).

[Motorrad]

Tribal Chestnut said:

I too have no sympathy for those that have died or been seriously injured in accidents that they could have avoided or could have been avoided by another party being a little more considerate and careful.

Likewise I have no sympathy for soliders that die abroad, any police, etc, that are harmed in the course of their 'job', kids that are abused, etc, etc.

Obviously with this attitude I am a complete and utter and deserve to fall down my own stairs tonight, seriously injuring myself and leaving my ten year old to care for me over the next 40/50/whatever years.

Edit: wker!

That made me laugh. fk 'undertaking' bikers though obviously. Likewise everyone else.

[phib]

Mastodon2 said:

How much "riding" of this bike did you do? Did you sit in traffic like you were in a car?

Never really sat in traffic there isn't much on the track or green lanes !!

Road bikes were Saturday morning blasts, Ducati 748 and 916. Never rode them on motorways, not that I don't want to ride them on motorways just wasn't my kind of riding and didn't need to do, we also didn't have many motorways where I lived !!

Phib