Bikers - Undertaking, do we have any sympathy ?
Discussion
SimesJH said:
I'll give way whenever I can as I don't want a collision, but I just think it massively unfair to effectively be squeezed one way and then another on my own bit of road.
Unfortunately you don't own any bit of road. It strikes me as a bit odd that a lot of otherwise rational drivers get irked by things like filtering. I suppose it is a reminder of the impotence of being stuck in city traffic.Fats25 said:
Fastdruid said:
I'm not sure he realised just how close he was to being taken out, about a second later and he'd have been into the side of my car as I changed lanes.
He probably didn't realize. As it probably wasn't as close as you think. Obviously I was not there, but is very rare as a biker that you get these "oh s
t" moments, 65mph on a bike feels like 15 in a car. If is was not an "oh st" moment from him (and I suspect if it was - you would have seen a swerve from him, and/or a reaction at least) he probably went about his day, without even noticing it as was not as close as you thought it was. No idea if you ride a bike or not, but after a while of riding, especially in traffic, your perception of what is going on around you becomes owl like. You know everything going on around you at all times. Is a very strange sensation, and difficult to explain to non-bike riders. You cannot appreciate how quick and nimble a bike can be, and what looks like a tight gap to a car driver, has miles of room for a biker.
I was going for what was already a bit of a cheeky and relatively tight gap for a car. I spotted him at the very last moment before changing lanes, if I'd moved out without looking rather than check, indicate and move out I'd have collected him. You're right that he probably didn't realise how close it was but it's the nearest I've ever come to hitting someone on a bike.
I will have less (not necessarily none) sympathy for anyone passing on the nearside, whether that's filtering or undertaking.
There are some situations where you just know the majority of road users are useless and there is increased risk at that point. At those times you must drive/ride expecting others to not expect you there.
There are some situations where you just know the majority of road users are useless and there is increased risk at that point. At those times you must drive/ride expecting others to not expect you there.
based on what's said, I'd say it's the biker's fault.
I was taught to filter only when the traffic was standing moving at a pace you could walk alongside,and then only to filter past slowly so drivers have plenty of time to see you.
Approximate 50mph filtering past traffic doing 20 in my eyes is ludicrous, its like overtaking in a 20mph zone, with the closing speed you could pass through the visible section of a mirror and into a blind spot very easily.
A lot of city riders will probably say this is acceptable however!
I was taught to filter only when the traffic was standing moving at a pace you could walk alongside,and then only to filter past slowly so drivers have plenty of time to see you.
Approximate 50mph filtering past traffic doing 20 in my eyes is ludicrous, its like overtaking in a 20mph zone, with the closing speed you could pass through the visible section of a mirror and into a blind spot very easily.
A lot of city riders will probably say this is acceptable however!
yonex said:
If you are filtering it is YOUR responsibility to make sure you are both visible and have enough room to stop or avoid things.
No sympathy.
That dosnt advocate drivers not checking there mirrors, or not having a mirror to check, or leaving their mirror folded in so they cant check.No sympathy.
It takes two to tango.
As for undertaking, it's soemthing to be careful of in any vehicle. I have undertaken when the traffic in the other lane has slowed (I think we all have) but I dont seek to undertake.
People need to be careful not to put themselves in a position of danger (if you really must undertake, stick around in the area where the vehicle you are going to go past can have a chance to see you first, gauge their driving / riding then carefully do it). One of the wonderful things about motorcycles if they are slim, dont take up much space in the lane. A switched-on motorcyclist should be using this to their advantage.
Deranged Granny said:
Filtering is passing stationary or slow moving traffic.
Undertaking is when you go for five miles in an entirely empty L1 passing 50+ fkwit car drivers bunched together in L2/3 an inch off each other's bumper and on and off the brakes every ten seconds.
There. Someone said it - thank you.Undertaking is when you go for five miles in an entirely empty L1 passing 50+ f
kwit car drivers bunched together in L2/3 an inch off each other's bumper and on and off the brakes every ten seconds.I give cars ample chance to see me and move over into the empty lane next to them, but they're usually far too busy texting/chatting or doing something other than paying attention to their mirrors and using correct lane discipline.
Once you've undertaken they almost always continue to sit completely unfazed in 'their' lane and still oblivious to the next frustrated driver/rider behind them
Edited by rich_b on Thursday 23 October 11:45
Pan Pan said:
DrDoofenshmirtz said:
It's certainly a risk, but it's just so easy to nip round vehicles on the 'wrong' side.
You're on a fast, narrow and highly manoeuvrable machine...everything that a car isn't. It's easy and very good fun...as long as things don't go wrong.
If a vehicle changed lanes and a bike was undertaking at speed...it really is the bikers fault if they hit the vehicle, because the other driver wouldn't have been expecting a bike to be there.
The old `mirror signal manoeuvre' rule `should' be used all the time, but how many drivers bother to signal, even when there is another road user directly behind them? The question would be did they even look in the mirror before pulling out?You're on a fast, narrow and highly manoeuvrable machine...everything that a car isn't. It's easy and very good fun...as long as things don't go wrong.
If a vehicle changed lanes and a bike was undertaking at speed...it really is the bikers fault if they hit the vehicle, because the other driver wouldn't have been expecting a bike to be there.
The fact is, if you're undertaking another vehicle, they won't expect you to be there. And if you're part way through the undertaking manoeuvre, it's unlikely you'll be in their mirror anyway (not all vehicles have blind spot mirrors).
Hoping the other vehicle 'should' see you is not good enough. If you're going for an undertake (usually to get round outside lane morons...grrrr) you have to give them as wide a berth as possible, and be prepared to dart out of the way if they do suddenly wake up and move over.
Of course, a very fast bike gets you out of danger quickly, and is safer
Esseesse said:
I will have less (not necessarily none) sympathy for anyone passing on the nearside, whether that's filtering or undertaking.
There are some situations where you just know the majority of road users are useless and there is increased risk at that point. At those times you must drive/ride expecting others to not expect you there.
Would you say the same if the driver had driven in to a car that was on the inside, because they had changed lanes without looking in slow moving traffic?There are some situations where you just know the majority of road users are useless and there is increased risk at that point. At those times you must drive/ride expecting others to not expect you there.
andburg said:
based on what's said, I'd say it's the biker's fault.
I was taught to filter only when the traffic was standing moving at a pace you could walk alongside,and then only to filter past slowly so drivers have plenty of time to see you.
Approximate 50mph filtering past traffic doing 20 in my eyes is ludicrous, its like overtaking in a 20mph zone, with the closing speed you could pass through the visible section of a mirror and into a blind spot very easily.
A lot of city riders will probably say this is acceptable however!
Nothing wrong with filtering past traffic doing 20. The general rule is maximum of 20+20. Doing 50 would be to fast, but then this is the OPs guess. Many people do make dumb filtering choices. On the A34 I have seen people filtering through traffic doing 40, which is insane, but 3mph (Walking pace)? That is very very slow in a car or on a bike. I CAN ride at that speed, but it is very hard work for any length of time as the bike is not working for you to stay upright.I was taught to filter only when the traffic was standing moving at a pace you could walk alongside,and then only to filter past slowly so drivers have plenty of time to see you.
Approximate 50mph filtering past traffic doing 20 in my eyes is ludicrous, its like overtaking in a 20mph zone, with the closing speed you could pass through the visible section of a mirror and into a blind spot very easily.
A lot of city riders will probably say this is acceptable however!
Edited by SteveSteveson on Thursday 23 October 13:34
Mad Jock said:
While you seem to have developed some kind of Jedi motorcycling skills yourself, it should be pretty obvious that our fellow bikers who find themselves shiny side down after a filtering collision have not yet reached your level of Yoda like consciousness.
As I said, where do we draw the line? Most of us bikers will have seen this video clip, but perhaps not our four wheeled brethren........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XihQeZpwqpE
Yoda or just fking lucky?
I'm not sure I am Yoda - but perhaps I am more experienced in filtering than some of the other bikers, and you take your own level of risk, and see what you are comfortable with.As I said, where do we draw the line? Most of us bikers will have seen this video clip, but perhaps not our four wheeled brethren........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XihQeZpwqpE
Yoda or just f
king lucky?Is the video above safe? To the rider I would say it must be. To me - I probably would not be going quite so quick, or at least not for the same length of time. I ride with other people from PH, and some are far quicker than me on a track, and country roads. Some of the overtakes they make, I don't. I do not have the same level of ability, or at least not the same confidence in my ability. They weigh up their risks, I weigh up my own risks, and make a decision from there. These same riders when we hit traffic, will not filter the way that I do. Again their risk versus my risk, and a decision is made.
Is there a chance you get the move wrong? Is your judgement of what someone else does using your Jedi skills going to get you in trouble at times? Absolutely possible. There is a similar thread running in BB at the moment re dangers of motorcycling. Anyone that decides to take it up is taking a risk greater than the "normal" car driver. But it appears less risk than the average horse rider. Any bike rider has already decided to take that risk.
I am currently living in the UAE, and there is no question mark over filtering, or undertaking. There is no law against it, and every single road has this happening every minute of the day. I want a bike, but at this time whilst I am analysing the risks of driving here, I do not have one, and may not ever get one. I prefer to view it from the comfort of my truck and weigh up my risks. The weather has just cooled down enough for the bikes to be back out, so is interesting to watch and hopefully learn before trying myself.
However it is noticeable on the road that the majority of incidents are caused by those lacking confidence/understanding how it works. Those with an understanding of how to undertake/filter do it with no issue. Then you get the minority of over confident drivers that cause the remainder of the accidents. No different to the UK - just on a different scale.
My point was that a lot of car drivers that do not ride see bikers do things every day, and they think it is dangerous. They have no experience/understanding of riding a bike so have no idea. I have mates say they same when I am in the car when seeing bikes doing perfect filtering/undertaking - with no risk to the rider at all.
Fastdruid said:
I've only done about 100k of commuting ............You're right that he probably didn't realise how close it was but it's the nearest I've ever come to hitting someone on a bike.
Fair enough - I was not there. If you know how to ride a bike, and you perceived it as risky then it probably was. I am not defending all bikers here, there are always going to be bad decisions made in any vehicle. Sounds like in your case this biker made a bad decision, and fair play to your Jedi skills (perhaps honed from 100k of commuting?) you avoided him. Just in my experience there are more bad decisions made in cars than there are on bikes, because the pain of making a mistake on a bike is typically greater, there are more miles done on the roads by cars than bikes, and a lot of drivers use the car as a means of a to b driving with no interest in it. Driving is like food and water to a lot of people. Those on bikes typically (in UK) are doing it because they are interested in it, and therefore have a keen interest in improving their skills. All IMO.
To summarise I can't defend all bikers, any more than anyone here can defend all car drivers. The point I was trying to make was that filtering can be as risky as you choose it to be, as can anything else in life. However don't judge a decision made by someone, who has typicaly made a risk based decision, unless you have the experience to judge it.
Edited by Fats25 on Friday 24th October 08:24
Fats25 said:
you take your own level of risk, and see what you are comfortable with.
This, for sure. ^^^I do find that when on a bike though, you're totally focussed on what you and everyone around you is doing. There's almost nothing else to distract you. Driving a car is so simple these days that you can drive on autopilot, switch off and barely remember a thing about the journey. Bikes aren't really like that, so I can understand why the biker went for the undertake, but it sounds like he did it just a bit too quickly for the car driver to see him.
Well said.
I have been commuting mostly by bike for 7+ years, and riding for a lot longer.
If i didn't filter there would be no advantage over driving and i'd be spending hours sat still on the A14 and in Cambridge.
However, my risk comfort level means i draw the line at filtering once the traffic is moving above 20-30 mph.
There is a perfect speed for filtering and that's when the ambient traffic is doing 0mph. That way all the car drivers are safely idle, fiddling with their radios, checking emails on their phones, reading the paper, etc - all things i've seen car drivers do at 60mph!
Also at 0mph the advantage of car vs bike is infinite.
Once the traffic is moving the risk of lane changes comes in. The slower the traffic is moving, the more likely someone is to change lanes to gain advantage. In that respect filtering at 60 can often be safer because cars stick to their lanes in heavy traffic, cruise control on (as i do when driving). However i don't like filtering at that speed because the risk vs advantage is marginal.
I'm sure car drivers see me go past doing 30-40 while they're doing 20 and curse me. So be it. They probably have no idea how much better it is and the feeling of freedom. I'd rather they thought it was dangerous with "i'd kill myself on a bike" muttered under their breath than try it, kill themselves and potentially bring more legislation onto all of us.
Having said that i get overtaken all the time by bikers filtering too fast IMO, but to them i'm probably dawdling!!
I have been commuting mostly by bike for 7+ years, and riding for a lot longer.
If i didn't filter there would be no advantage over driving and i'd be spending hours sat still on the A14 and in Cambridge.
However, my risk comfort level means i draw the line at filtering once the traffic is moving above 20-30 mph.
There is a perfect speed for filtering and that's when the ambient traffic is doing 0mph. That way all the car drivers are safely idle, fiddling with their radios, checking emails on their phones, reading the paper, etc - all things i've seen car drivers do at 60mph!
Also at 0mph the advantage of car vs bike is infinite.
Once the traffic is moving the risk of lane changes comes in. The slower the traffic is moving, the more likely someone is to change lanes to gain advantage. In that respect filtering at 60 can often be safer because cars stick to their lanes in heavy traffic, cruise control on (as i do when driving). However i don't like filtering at that speed because the risk vs advantage is marginal.
I'm sure car drivers see me go past doing 30-40 while they're doing 20 and curse me. So be it. They probably have no idea how much better it is and the feeling of freedom. I'd rather they thought it was dangerous with "i'd kill myself on a bike" muttered under their breath than try it, kill themselves and potentially bring more legislation onto all of us.
Having said that i get overtaken all the time by bikers filtering too fast IMO, but to them i'm probably dawdling!!
g3org3y said:
I like going fast but that made hair on my head and arms stand up..! Fantastic concentration there, great skills and reactions. Too quick for me though.It's as simple as:-
Codswallop said:
Filtering or lane splitting is perfectly legal (see p.28 point 88 of the Highway Code).
Therefore :-Codswallop said:
Regardless, all road users should remember: Mirror, signal, manoeuvre.
If people did mirror, signal manoeuvre then these accidents simply wouldn't happen.I don’t have much of a problem with bikes undertaking/filtering when done safely. (I am not a biker by the way so this is purely from a driver’s point of view). I think there can definitely be an element of poor observation and awareness on the part of both the car driver and/or sometimes the biker that often underpins the cause of some of the accidents mentioned above as I can’t imagine drivers would see a bike and actively move into it/block it likewise most bikers I know are pretty clued up on self preservation.
An example of bikers undertaking that I think is fairly safe happened yesterday- I was driving up the M11/A14 to work at main commuter time and traffic at that time was at lorry speed in Lane 1 and about 65-70ish in lane 2. (So not in the slow/queueing category but it wasn’t exactly flowing nicely). Clocked a bike filtering/passing through traffic a few cars back. I had a couple of options as it came up behind me set on my near side rear - (I also had cars in front of me so wasn’t being a moron sitting in the outside lane)
1) I could pull across the biker into lane 1 to allow him to pass on the outside, however I would have to drop my speed by about 15mph to fit into lane 1 (I was approaching to pass 2 lorries at this point) and there wasn’t really a gap that I could move into without causing others to change speed/brake. This option doesn’t help me and would involve cutting across a bike that might have been planning to overtake on the inside. Unlikely to end well.
2) I could stay put, pass the lorries and wait for a more suitable opportunity to move to lane 1. (Probably what the highway code would suggest).
3) (What I did) Indicated right to show the biker I knew he/she was there and moved to the right hand side of lane 2 to create a bit more room. Biker then proceeded to overtake on my near side in the half gap in lane 1. Friendly wave of the leg and off they went. I often use this approach and bikers always seem fairly appreciative - I don’t see the point in holding people up unnecessarily when they can make progress safely just because I can’t at that time whether that is overtaking on the inside or outside.
Does the above make sense or am I committing a big no-no to be widely condemned by the biking community and this forum?
Cheers
Alex
An example of bikers undertaking that I think is fairly safe happened yesterday- I was driving up the M11/A14 to work at main commuter time and traffic at that time was at lorry speed in Lane 1 and about 65-70ish in lane 2. (So not in the slow/queueing category but it wasn’t exactly flowing nicely). Clocked a bike filtering/passing through traffic a few cars back. I had a couple of options as it came up behind me set on my near side rear - (I also had cars in front of me so wasn’t being a moron sitting in the outside lane)
1) I could pull across the biker into lane 1 to allow him to pass on the outside, however I would have to drop my speed by about 15mph to fit into lane 1 (I was approaching to pass 2 lorries at this point) and there wasn’t really a gap that I could move into without causing others to change speed/brake. This option doesn’t help me and would involve cutting across a bike that might have been planning to overtake on the inside. Unlikely to end well.
2) I could stay put, pass the lorries and wait for a more suitable opportunity to move to lane 1. (Probably what the highway code would suggest).
3) (What I did) Indicated right to show the biker I knew he/she was there and moved to the right hand side of lane 2 to create a bit more room. Biker then proceeded to overtake on my near side in the half gap in lane 1. Friendly wave of the leg and off they went. I often use this approach and bikers always seem fairly appreciative - I don’t see the point in holding people up unnecessarily when they can make progress safely just because I can’t at that time whether that is overtaking on the inside or outside.
Does the above make sense or am I committing a big no-no to be widely condemned by the biking community and this forum?
Cheers
Alex
That's fine, any indication to show you know the bike is present is appreciated. Only thing to remember though is the biker won't always go past so don't be pissed if you make room and they don't go for it. Some sadly still think they are driving cars but on some occasions you may have made room but a lack of room in front or if on single carriageway an oncoming vehicle may make it pointless.
I had a police traffic car make a blatant pull towards the curb yesterday so aiding me pass. That was on an NSL single carriageway with oncoming traffic & busy with some 45mph git dictating everyone else's speed except mine, him doing that made it perfectly safe to pass.
I had a police traffic car make a blatant pull towards the curb yesterday so aiding me pass. That was on an NSL single carriageway with oncoming traffic & busy with some 45mph git dictating everyone else's speed except mine, him doing that made it perfectly safe to pass.
Edited by Herman Toothrot on Friday 24th October 09:17
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